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No death before sin, sin after Adam

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posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 01:55 AM
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I note the argument by many scholars that the earth is x age and there are fossils prior to man and the gap theory and theistic evolution and all that great, interesting debatable stuff
Its all good and all

Though when I read this

Genesis
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

Then

Romans 5.12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.…

I am left wondering how gap theory proponents and theistic evolutionists reconcile this with their beliefs.
How could there be million or so year old fossils if death didnt exist before sin

I am interested, I am not saying they/you are not christian, that you are wrong.
Just interested




posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:07 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman
it's speaking of the death and sins of human beings.

Animals can't sin. And Satan sinned before humans chronologically.

Sin: Insight, Volume 2

Anything not in harmony with, hence contrary to, God’s personality, standards, ways, and will; anything marring one’s relationship with God. It may be in word (Job 2:10; Ps 39:1), in deed (doing wrong acts [Le 20:20; 2Co 12:21] or failing to do what should be done [Nu 9:13; Jas 4:17]), or in mind or heart attitude (Pr 21:4; compare also Ro 3:9-18; 2Pe 2:12-15). Lack of faith in God is a major sin, showing, as it does, distrust of him or lack of confidence in his ability to perform. (Heb 3:12, 13, 18, 19) A consideration of the use of the original-language terms and examples associated with them illustrates this.


Sin: Reasoning

Sin

Definition: Literally, a missing of the mark, according to the Hebrew and Greek Bible texts. God himself sets the “mark” that his intelligent creatures are to reach. Missing that mark is sin, which is also unrighteousness, or lawlessness. (Rom. 3:23; 1 John 5:17; 3:4) Sin is anything not in harmony with God’s personality, standards, ways, and will, all of which are holy. It may involve wrong conduct, failure to do what should be done, ungodly speech, unclean thoughts, or desires or motives that are selfish. The Bible differentiates between inherited sin and willful sin, between an act of sin over which a person is repentant and the practice of sin.

edit on 22-4-2016 by whereislogic because: addition



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:11 AM
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originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Raggedyman
it's speaking of the death and sins of human beings.

Animals can't sin. And Satan sinned before humans chronologically.


Yeahhhh well

I was talking about death in the world, earth.
Satan is not human or dead
Animals? I dont understand your point or its validity to my question

Its not a trick question, just want to understand how others reconcile the issue



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:12 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
No death before sin

Logically speaking, if there was no 'death' before 'sin', then there could not have been any 'life', either!



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:13 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman Are you referring to dinosaur fossils? Or human?



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:16 AM
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originally posted by: peppycat
a reply to: Raggedyman Are you referring to dinosaur fossils? Or human?



Anything that has died before sin entered the world, anything at all, no categories



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:17 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

If animals cannot sin, their death is not related to the verse you are bringing up. Animals lived and died long before humans were created. Old fossils of them are to be expected.

Pointing out that Satan sinned before humans (or thinking about it), is demonstrating that that verse is not talking about the sin and death of anything other than human beings.
edit on 22-4-2016 by whereislogic because: addition



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:22 AM
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originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Raggedyman

If animals cannot sin, their death is not related to the verse you are bringing up. Animals lived and died long before humans were created. Old fossils of them are to be expected.

Pointing out that Satan sinned before humans, is demonstrating that that verse is not talking about the sin and death of anything other than human beings.


Ok
I get that

I want a logical trail of reason to follow, I am not after a statement
Why do you believe what you believe

If there was no death in the world
Romans 5.12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.…

Death through sin? Are you saying death was already in the world?
Seems a contradiction



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:23 AM
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Satan sinned before humans.

Satan can turn into snake.

Snakes are animals.

So every single animal were not bound by sins.

This means animals could die.

P.S. Verse says Man. Not animal. If it said Animal sin then what you are saying would make sence.
edit on 22-4-2016 by ZeroFurrbone because: p.s.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:23 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman I thought Whereislogic's answer made perfect sense. The verse you quoted, states, ''death to all men''... because of mankind's sin. Animal and or dinosaur fossils would be in their own category, outside of mankind. If there is a verse about being brought into existence for all living creatures, that is different.
If dinosaurs were before Eden, then God would have to do away with them, because they wouldn't be safe for humans.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:27 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
I was talking about death in the world, earth.


Hmmm, how can I point this out the most cautiously and the least offensively...I think I'm just gonna blurt it out.

You might also describe the above as trying to read your philosophical beliefs into the bible, twisting it and then trying to use it in support of those beliefs you have been taught regarding a young earth. Of course most of this has already been done for you and you end up repeating the way of thinking of the people who have twisted that verse to their liking in previous centuries sometimes (people who are long dead but their influence still lingers on; and not only obvious twists like these, much more cunning ones regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, the myth of the immortal soul, and more).

Again (seeing your new comment), since apparently it's not that obvious to you, I gave you the reasons why and how you can tell that the verse is not speaking of the death and sin of all things in the world, just human beings. Therefore, it only becomes contradictory if you try to read your interpretation that the mention of "death" there is also referring to the death of animals into the text.

Oh, and the Hugh Ross types that claim that humans have been evolving or around much longer than 6000 years ago may also somewhat interfere with your thinking.

Humans have been around for 6000-6050 years (unlike all the fraudulant stories presented by anthropologists regarding this point).
Animals have been around much longer.

Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock: Dolan DNA Learning Center, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory

Regardless of the cause, evolutionists are most concerned about the effect of a faster mutation rate. For example, researchers have calculated that "mitochondrial Eve"--the woman whose mtDNA was ancestral to that in all living people--lived 100,000 to 200,000 years ago in Africa. Using the new clock, she would be a mere 6000 years old.

edit on 22-4-2016 by whereislogic because: addition



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:27 AM
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a reply to: peppycat

If dinosaurs were before eden?

Oh im god let me create the world and everything and Eden... But wait a second , how those pesky dinosaurs appeared out of nowhere?



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:28 AM
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originally posted by: peppycat
a reply to: Raggedyman I thought Whereislogic's answer made perfect sense. The verse you quoted, states, ''death to all men''... because of mankind's sin. Animal and or dinosaur fossils would be in their own category, outside of mankind. If there is a verse about being brought into existence for all living creatures, that is different.
If dinosaurs were before Eden, then God would have to do away with them, because they wouldn't be safe for humans.



Lions and tigers, snakes crocks and spiders arnt very safe either, should we look at viruses?
Where does it say death to all men only, cant find it?



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:36 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman Romans 5:12, you wrote it down in your OP. What do you mean where does it say that?
I imagine in Eden, before sin there was nothing that could kill human beings, the animals were most likely docile and harmful bacteria and viruses probably didn't exist in Eden either until after the sin of man. Dinosaurs might of been around too, outside of the garden.


edit on 22-4-2016 by peppycat because: tablet or auto correct



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:37 AM
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a reply to: ZeroFurrbone I'm sure they were pretty darn pesky. I wouldn't want to be around one.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:37 AM
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originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I was talking about death in the world, earth.


Hmmm, how can I point this out the most cautiously and the least offensively...I think I'm just gonna blurt it out.

You might also describe the above as trying to read your philosophical beliefs into the bible, twisting it and then trying to use it in support of those beliefs you have been taught regarding a young earth.

Of course most of this has already been done for you and you end up repeating the way of thinking of the people who have twisted that verse to their liking in previous centuries sometimes (people who are long dead but their influence still lingers on; and not only obvious twists like these, much more cunning ones regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, the myth of the immortal soul, and more).


Obviously I asked the question pertaining to my beliefs in a YEC, thought that would be very obvious

I guess you are a gnostic?
Hate the trinity and decided to approach the bible that I quoted in a dishonest manner?
You deny the Father God and have a differente theology of the Old Testament that suits your gnosticism
I see that now
I actually asked Christians, figuring the conservative, standard type, not the gnostic type who deny the Father God

Thanks anyway
No offence taken or given



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:40 AM
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originally posted by: peppycat
a reply to: ZeroFurrbone I'm sure they were pretty darn pesky. I wouldn't want to be around one.



I am sure they were pretty darn pesky too, had a crock sneak up on me when fishing once.
Nothing very big but I didnt notice it till I nearly trod on the bloody thing

Then just slipped back into the water

Must of realised it was out matched



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:44 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: peppycat
a reply to: ZeroFurrbone I'm sure they were pretty darn pesky. I wouldn't want to be around one.



I am sure they were pretty darn pesky too, had a crock sneak up on me when fishing once.
Nothing very big but I didnt notice it till I nearly trod on the bloody thing

Then just slipped back into the water


Must of realised it was out matched
Yikes! Good thing it didn't bite you! I imagine a weird smell when I think of reptiles. Dinosaurs were probably stinky too.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 02:56 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman
no I am not a gnostic and I do not deny "the Father" and God of Jesus Christ. I love talking about him and praising his work and mighty name unlike certain other people who much rather try to confuse people about that name while sometimes expressing their adherence to what some people refer to as "KJ-Onlyism" (I'm not talking about you).

Psalms 83:18 (King James Version):

That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 03:11 AM
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Reading this thread, I wonder where exactly this Garden of Eden was located ,in first place and who were Adam and Eve exactly, beings? Nevertheless um I suppose I am off-track & it's already been addressed in some other threads.
edit on 22-4-2016 by AsianStellar because: spelling mistake



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