Transgender MMA Fighter Destroys Female Opponent

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: SaturnFX

Apples and oranges. What part of that don't you understand?

its FREAKING NOT! GOD!!!
a 150lb female faced off against a 150lb trans female
the 150lb female had her @#$%ing face pounded into sand while being absolutely ineffectual

the deadlift records show why...pound for pound, the males destroyed women in strength..but they were in the same weight class.
This is how sports work, they compare weight size..thats it..thats all that is ever compared..do you two weigh the same? ok. then you are matched up

If you accept this as fair, then udnerstand this..if trans m2f are able to enter itno fighting sports, say goodbye to natural women ever winning another trophey..it will be a clean sweep forever for trans people winning every single strength or cadio based competition
you can bitch at nature all you want..nature simply doesn't care.
Trans is in the mind, trans minds can alter the look of the body..but it cannot alter the nature of man..not yet..give it 50 years with nanoclouds restructuring the body and sure..but for now..nope..

a reply to: SaturnFX

I will try to put this as simply as I possibly can.

All these things you keep quoting as gospel that males are stronger than females does not apply to Fallon Fox. Not because she "identifies" it is because she has a vagina. It is because she has no testicles. It is because her body does not produce as much natural testosterone as a natal female which produce some testosterone in the ovaries. It is is because her levels of estrogen are the same or higher than a natal females. Fallon Fox had sex reassignment surgery 10 years ago and has been on estrogen longer. Her muscles do not have any advantage because she was born male.

What do you think makes males stronger than females? I will give you a hint - it is testosterone. Remove testosterone from a natal male, add estrogen and within months muscles will fade. They turn into "girl" muscles. Add androgens like testosterone to a natal female and she will look like those body-builder women.

You keep going on about males being stronger than females. I have absolutely no disagreement with that whatsoever. What does that have to do with Fallon Fox?

Oh and if you think there's suddenly going to be a whole bunch of men changing sex so they can compete against women, get real.

a reply to: Freija

To be fair, a lot of high level athletes in mma are juicing and know how to cycle off before a test, the women included. I can believe Fox isn't just because of all the additional scrutiny surrounding her and while other athletes would get to come back after a ban there's almost no way she would be allowed to if she got popped. I don't think the playing field is anywhere near as uneven as it's being made out.

It is entirely possible that she was just the better prepared fighter on the night and implemented a better gameplan.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015
It is entirely possible that she was just the better prepared fighter on the night and implemented a better gameplan.

Be careful there, that's blasphemous thinking and far too logical of a suggestion to have any merit.

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Lysergic
So, you can learn to be gay?

Nature vs nurture

Science VS bulllsnip

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: SaturnFX

I will try to put this as simply as I possibly can.

All these things you keep quoting as gospel that males are stronger than females does not apply to Fallon Fox. Not because she "identifies" it is because she has a vagina. It is because she has no testicles. It is because her body does not produce as much natural testosterone as a natal female which produce some testosterone in the ovaries. It is is because her levels of estrogen are the same or higher than a natal females. Fallon Fox had sex reassignment surgery 10 years ago and has been on estrogen longer. Her muscles do not have any advantage because she was born male.

What do you think makes males stronger than females? I will give you a hint - it is testosterone. Remove testosterone from a natal male, add estrogen and within months muscles will fade. They turn into "girl" muscles. Add androgens like testosterone to a natal female and she will look like those body-builder women.

You keep going on about males being stronger than females. I have absolutely no disagreement with that whatsoever. What does that have to do with Fallon Fox.

Because not having testosterone for the last 10 years (and we don't really know that for sure, do we? was she surgically castrated?) isn't the same as not having male-levels of testosterone since -9 months, and ovaries since -9 months.

Testosterone, in particular in puberty, permanently changes men physically.

Additionally, M2F trans people present a very high risk of doping fraud for athletic competitions. You don't have to just say "No I haven't been taking any synthetic hormones" and prove it with a test, but certify that "I have been taking performance reducing hormones in a certain sufficiently effective amount"---and that science is not available. Just take less estrogen or androgen suppressor for a little while and gain an advantage.

There is a long experience with eunuchs in the Eastern Roman and later Ottoman Empire. There wasn't any synthetic hormones so that physical castration (potentially more strong than todays M2F) was the only option (and it wasn't done for any gender identity concerns, but entirely different reasons). It was widely recognized that eunuchs castrated after puberty still maintained signs of virility (hormones are produced by other glands as well), could achieve erection and sexual desire. There were eunuchs who served with valor and success in the Imperial armies.

Male castrati (Italian eunuchs castrated for musical reasons, even before puberty) may have had alto and soprano singing voices, but it was renowned that they had strength and power of a man in the range of a woman's voice---apparently it was very impressive.

In any case, there is substantial biology beyond just testosterone on the Y chromosome.

originally posted by: Freija

Do you think either of the women below are somehow inherently stronger than a natal female of the same height, weight and build? I'd be hard pressed to imagine that.

If they were castrated after puberty, it's very likely to be so.

Now, the situation in question isn't "looking like an alluring woman", but a transgender woman who is intentionally training for a physically aggressive athletic competition. Who will respond better to training?

originally posted by: mbkennel
Now, the situation in question isn't "looking like an alluring woman", but a transgender woman who is intentionally training for a physically aggressive athletic competition. Who will respond better to training?

Interesting information and anecdotal but I believe you are still making a point based on pure conjecture and assumptions that there is some inherent magic in formerly being male when many or most of these MMA fighters are of similar or superior build.

Fox did have SRS ten years ago. Both sexes produce trace amounts of testosterone in the adrenal glands and some is also produced in the ovaries by females.

Let me quote from the following article: Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?

The NCAA instituted somewhat less stringent guidelines in 2011. They do not require surgery, and they require only one year on testosterone suppression for male-to-female transgender athletes. The conclusions of the consulting medical experts on the NCAA policy were unambiguous:

It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence

And another

In an interview regarding transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, Dr. Marci Bowers explains why there is no effective competitive advantage in being a transgender woman:

Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

And this

In the same interview, Dr. Sherman Leis concurred in all respects.

Indeed, given that women get 25 percent of their circulating testosterone from their ovaries, post-operative transgender women typically have less testosterone than their counterparts. Fox noted, “Any of the women I’m competing against, my testosterone levels are drastically lower than theirs; it’s almost nothing.”

Dr. Bowers agreed: “When you test her, she’s going to come out with low testosterone levels and muscle mass that is remarkably similar to her counterparts.” These observations were borne out in Fallon Fox’s first defeat at the hands of Ashlee Evans-Smith, where Fox’s muscle fatigue in later rounds gave Smith an advantage. After the fight, Smith observed, “I won because I hit harder, grappled better, had better ground techniques, cardio and leg strength.”

This is what I've been saying all along about testosterone. It's also not that I don't know what I'm talking because I have something slightly more than anecdotal evidence (or a HuffPo article) to support my point.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Male or female, transgender or not; when it comes to competition involving physical strength -- competitors should be matched according to their physical ability. If this means that the transgender MMA fighter continues to fight against men, so be it. I'd like to think that even a transgender fighter would understand the advantages/disadvantages in the ring, and would not put undue risk upon other fighters.

That's just how I feel.

There are women out there that are bigger, faster, stronger and could kick my arse sideways. I'm not a match for them. Then again, there are guys smaller and weaker than me that I could toss around like a rag doll. In either situation, it's not a fair or balanced fight that relies on skill, cunning and guile to win.

This. Best response I've seen so far. Tactful, intelligent, and to the point.

I agree that trans people should be matched on abilities, not gender. The level of full physical transition is different for each trans person. Many trans Male to Female bodies experience an eventual femminization of the entire physique, but that usually takes years of hormones plus removal of the genitalia. So in the meantime, many trans women still have heavily male statures and physical capabilities, and are physically still male. Since sports are all about the physical primarily, a person's actual biological sex must be taken into account. Common sense, really.

This is a totally valid point.

a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Dont you mena relies on SEX not gender? Genders mental k? If the comissions approve a fight they have already weighed the contenders and their abilities. Obviously they found this card acceptable right? SO actually the point is MOOT.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Dont you mena relies on SEX not gender? Genders mental k? If the comissions approve a fight they have already weighed the contenders and their abilities. Obviously they found this card acceptable right? SO actually the point is MOOT.

Fox lost fights to other women.

That seems to be mostly ignored.

Complete bull#, a trans should not be fighting in the woman's league. I am sure there is science behind it that it is an un-fair advantage with her going through puberty as a male. I get it, the commissioner just does not want to be that guy and say enough is enough.

originally posted by: Annee
Fox lost fights to other women.

That seems to be mostly ignored.

I can only find record of 1 loss. To a fighter that should never have been allowed to fight, due to a much bigger issue in MMA...performance enhancing drugs and substance abuse.

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: Annee
Fox lost fights to other women.

That seems to be mostly ignored.

I can only find record of 1 loss. To a fighter that should never have been allowed to fight, due to a much bigger issue in MMA...performance enhancing drugs and substance abuse.

Yes, ASHLEE EVANS-SMITH - - who is still fighting. Performance enhancing drugs.

a reply to: GoShredAK

There are hundreds of teachings that teach discipline
and respect, WITHOUT PLACING PEOPLE AT RISK.

Do you understand the difference?

There are hundreds of concepts that teach discipline
and respect not predicated upon pride and arrogance.

The whole notion people can or should pummel each
other so someone might learn respect is madness.

Using your rationale I suppose If one raised
children, he or she would bash their kids across
the head to teach respect?

If that's your reasoning, I pray you never try to
raise children, we have enough children
suffering from physical abuse.

I can't believe how degraded society has become.
These people push these nihilistic concepts
regardless of it's overall affect on culture.

a reply to: iTruthSeeker

Gross, that dude just looks creepy... But that's what happens when they let a dood fight a woman. Poor Brents, how fair was that one?

originally posted by: MrBlaq
a reply to: GoShredAK

There are hundreds of teachings that teach discipline
and respect, WITHOUT PLACING PEOPLE AT RISK.

Do you understand the difference?

There are hundreds of concepts that teach discipline
and respect not predicated upon pride and arrogance.

The whole notion people can or should pummel each
other so someone might learn respect is madness.

Using your rationale I suppose If one raised
children, he or she would bash their kids across
the head to teach respect?

If that's your reasoning, I pray you never try to
raise children, we have enough children
suffering from physical abuse.

I can't believe how degraded society has become.
These people push these nihilistic concepts
regardless of it's overall affect on culture.

What are you on about?

I don't get how I gave that impression?

I support MMA. IMO no activity can quite compare.

It's great for kids! Not abuse, more like a unique wonderful opportunity .
I don't feel like I have suggested any of your assumptions.

Mma is bad because its not safe?

Maybe I'm missing something .

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Dont you mena relies on SEX not gender? Genders mental k? If the comissions approve a fight they have already weighed the contenders and their abilities. Obviously they found this card acceptable right? SO actually the point is MOOT.

Fox lost fights to other women.

That seems to be mostly ignored.

that really doesn't mean anything in the fight game. Each match up is unique, styles make fights.

Just because a fighter lost against a fighter you have already beat doesn't mean the original fighter that was defeated can't beat you.

So it's irrelevant.

a reply to: yuppa

No they pick a SEX not a gender. remember gender is MENTAL.

In your understanding a woman's menstrual cycle, or
her PHYSICAL ovulation cycle to release a mature egg
from her ovary, to be pushed down her fallopian tubes,
with the possibility that a little sperm might
fertilize is just MENTAL

In your mind ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus,vagina,
vulva, mammary glands and breasts, not withstanding
her unique PHYSICAL ability TO GIVE BIRTH is just MENTAL?

Is this what they are teaching in the schools now?

LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL

Unfortunately this is not really funny, since people
actually believe this madness.

What are you on about? I don't get how I gave that impression? I support MMA. IMO no activity can quite compare. It's great for kids! Not abuse more like a unique wonderful opportunity . I don't feel like I have suggested any of your assumptions. Mma is bad because its not safe? Maybe I'm missing something .

You made the ludicrous assertion that MMA teaches discipline.
I can only assume you have no idea what 'discipline' is.

Discipline is SELF CONTROL.

It's not discipline to kick someone in the face, or to respond
like an animal when someone slaps you in the face, by
returning a slap. That's not discipline, only animals
react as such.

The only thing MMA teaches youth is to respond
irrational, as most induced by pride & arrogance
would in a real life situation outside the ring,
would rather FIGHT, instead of responding in
a civil manner.

In no manner of the case, such an attitude and
disposition does not define discipline. Of course
those who have an intention to charge money
for their services in teaching others MMA
would have no qualms in advocating an
obvious lie.