God Did It! The rest is post modern chatter!

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: edmc^2
In what way am I arrogant?

Re-read your reply to me and you'll see.

So if Predestination is in the Bible, why then are we encouraged to do good and stay away from badness?

Because the Bible is full of contradictions.

But let's take a look at one of the scriptures you cited:
[1Co 2:7 NLT] "No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began."

This verse talks about God's Wisdom made secret being revealed to those who are approved by God - it had nothing to do with predestination.

We must be reading a different Bible......

-1 Corinthians 2:7: No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
-Ephesians 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will
-Ephesians 1:5: he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
-Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

Considering the context, the Bible tells us that God destined and predestined lots of thing (wisdom, salvation etc).

This tells me you didn't really put much thinking into this and just parroting what other's said.

Do you really believe the scriptures you've quoted above is about predestination of each person on earth?

That no one has control over their destiny?

Free will everyone?

According to a lot of Christians, life is set out the way it is supposed to be (predetermined).

Free will just lets you make decisions, but you'll always end up with the same ending.

I blame their leaders for teaching them this way - it's a fatalistic point of view.

It's akin to the Hindu belief that our lives are already pre-determined by the three gods/goddesses - One spools the rope, One measures it and the third cuts it.

As for free will - it says as it is.

Kinda like, allowing Adam and Eve make their own mind to obey or not to obey the command. Knowing the consequence of disobedience, they still CHOOSE to do it - Free Will has consequences. If you CHOOSE the wrong path, you'll pay the price.

I can agree with most of that.

What I can't agree with is that Adam and Eve knew the consequences. They didn't know there would be any, let alone what they would be.

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: edmc^2
This tells me you didn't really put much thinking into this and just parroting what other's said.
Do you really believe the scriptures you've quoted above is about predestination of each person on earth?
That no one has control over their destiny?
Free will everyone?

Charming as usual.... you don't know anything about me pal.
The point of those scriptures I've quoted is that they show us clearly that God 'destined' and 'predestined' lots of things, from wisdom, to salvation.

And like I said on my previous post: how can God be omniscient and give us free will? They contradict each other. If God is omniscient then he knows the past/present/future and know what we will do. This means we don't have free will. But if you tell me we have the free will to change the future God has seen, the he is not omniscient as he is not able to see all the futures.

Herein lies the flaw in what you said.

It's true that God is omniscient but it doesn't mean that he has no freedom to choose. If he chooses to the see future of someone, he can do it. And there are instances that he does but it's in accordance with his will. For example, he chooses people to become his prophet. But that's the extent of it. And whatever the prophet wants to do with his life, he has the freedom to do so. He is not a robot nor someone who can't do nothing about his life. Far from it.

In fact, the free will that he gave mankind is well illustrated in what he did and told Adam and Eve after he created them.

First, he gave them a paradise home - the garden of Eden. Of which they were to take good care of. To expand its border throughout and turn the entire earth into a paradise. And to accomplish this perfectly, he gave a perfect mind and body. They were given a command to multiply and fill the earth with beautiful perfect people like themselves. They were to take good care of the animals too.
In short they have everything they needed, INCLUDING the freedom to choose.

The scripture says:

[Gen 1:28 NIV] "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.""

But one thing is still missing, everlasting life. It wasn't given to them yet. This gift of everlasting life will only be given if they make the right choice.

Hence as a free moral agent, they WILL have to make up their OWN mind whether to obey or not. So a very simple test was given. Chose between obedience or disobedience.

The Scripture says:

[Gen 2:15 NIV] "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."
[Gen 2:16 NIV] "And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;"
[Gen 2:17 NIV] "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.""

So in front of them and their progeny is a prospect of everlasting life in a paradise earth. The question now for them is - will they choose to show their love to their Father by willingly obeying him or will they go their own way?

Tragically they chose their own way and partook of the fruit of the forbidden tree.

[Gen 3:2 NIV] "The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,"
[Gen 3:3 NIV] "but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' ""
[Gen 3:6 NIV] "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

The result:

[Rom 5:12 NIV] "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--"

Now if we say that God knew already what they were going to do before creating tAdam and Eve then why punish them? Why blame them for something that's already been PREDISTENED?

It's absolutely wrong and cruel to blame someone for something you already know they will fail from. So by saying that God has predestined our lives already, you've basically made God responsible for all evil done on earth - after all, they can't help it since as you said - we're predestined.

Lovingly, God has left the choice to us too - to believe or not to believe. To obey or disobey. You make your own destiny with the knowledge of its consequences whether good or bad.

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: edmc^2
In what way am I arrogant?

Re-read your reply to me and you'll see.

So if Predestination is in the Bible, why then are we encouraged to do good and stay away from badness?

Because the Bible is full of contradictions.

But let's take a look at one of the scriptures you cited:
[1Co 2:7 NLT] "No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began."

This verse talks about God's Wisdom made secret being revealed to those who are approved by God - it had nothing to do with predestination.

We must be reading a different Bible......

-1 Corinthians 2:7: No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
-Ephesians 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will
-Ephesians 1:5: he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
-Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

Considering the context, the Bible tells us that God destined and predestined lots of thing (wisdom, salvation etc).

This tells me you didn't really put much thinking into this and just parroting what other's said.

Do you really believe the scriptures you've quoted above is about predestination of each person on earth?

That no one has control over their destiny?

Free will everyone?

According to a lot of Christians, life is set out the way it is supposed to be (predetermined).

Free will just lets you make decisions, but you'll always end up with the same ending.

I blame their leaders for teaching them this way - it's a fatalistic point of view.

It's akin to the Hindu belief that our lives are already pre-determined by the three gods/goddesses - One spools the rope, One measures it and the third cuts it.

As for free will - it says as it is.

Kinda like, allowing Adam and Eve make their own mind to obey or not to obey the command. Knowing the consequence of disobedience, they still CHOOSE to do it - Free Will has consequences. If you CHOOSE the wrong path, you'll pay the price.

I can agree with most of that.

What I can't agree with is that Adam and Eve knew the consequences. They didn't know there would be any, let alone what they would be.

They knew exactly the consequence. They just didn't care. In short, they got greedy and became selfish. They did not even thought of what will happen to their children - us.

-see what I posted above.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: edmc^2
In what way am I arrogant?

Re-read your reply to me and you'll see.

So if Predestination is in the Bible, why then are we encouraged to do good and stay away from badness?

Because the Bible is full of contradictions.

But let's take a look at one of the scriptures you cited:
[1Co 2:7 NLT] "No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began."

This verse talks about God's Wisdom made secret being revealed to those who are approved by God - it had nothing to do with predestination.

We must be reading a different Bible......

-1 Corinthians 2:7: No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
-Ephesians 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will
-Ephesians 1:5: he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
-Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

Considering the context, the Bible tells us that God destined and predestined lots of thing (wisdom, salvation etc).

This tells me you didn't really put much thinking into this and just parroting what other's said.

Do you really believe the scriptures you've quoted above is about predestination of each person on earth?

That no one has control over their destiny?

Free will everyone?

According to a lot of Christians, life is set out the way it is supposed to be (predetermined).

Free will just lets you make decisions, but you'll always end up with the same ending.

I blame their leaders for teaching them this way - it's a fatalistic point of view.

It's akin to the Hindu belief that our lives are already pre-determined by the three gods/goddesses - One spools the rope, One measures it and the third cuts it.

As for free will - it says as it is.

Kinda like, allowing Adam and Eve make their own mind to obey or not to obey the command. Knowing the consequence of disobedience, they still CHOOSE to do it - Free Will has consequences. If you CHOOSE the wrong path, you'll pay the price.

I can agree with most of that.

What I can't agree with is that Adam and Eve knew the consequences. They didn't know there would be any, let alone what they would be.

They knew exactly the consequence. They just didn't care. In short, they got greedy and became selfish. They did not even thought of what will happen to their children - us.

-see what I posted above.

Again, that is YOUR interpretation of a book. There is nowhere saying they knew they would live forever if they didn't eat from the tree.

All you've done, throughout this whole thread, is add in extra bits that aren't there to make it sound better.

a reply to: edmc^2

I won't go into the Adam and Eve story, as Terrydon already pointed out that God never told them they would have eternal life if they didn't eat the apple. I also dislike how the woman is blamed, the Bible is a mysoginist book.

But let's go back to our topic: omniscience and free will are incompatible. You say God is omniscient, knows the past and the future, but leaves it up to me to make a choice, he gives me free will. But, whatever choice I make, he already knew what I would choose, because he is omniscient, so that cancels my free will.

Omniscience and free will cancel each other out, they cannot coexist together. He either knows it all or he doesn't.
If he knows it all he knows all the possible outcomes of my choices, which means he knows what choices I would make in advance. No free will then.

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: edmc^2

I won't go into the Adam and Eve story, as Terrydon already pointed out that God never told them they would have eternal life if they didn't eat the apple. I also dislike how the woman is blamed, the Bible is a mysoginist book.

But let's go back to our topic: omniscience and free will are incompatible. You say God is omniscient, knows the past and the future, but leaves it up to me to make a choice, he gives me free will. But, whatever choice I make, he already knew what I would choose, because he is omniscient, so that cancels my free will.

Omniscience and free will cancel each other out, they cannot coexist together. He either knows it all or he doesn't.
If he knows it all he knows all the possible outcomes of my choices, which means he knows what choices I would make in advance. No free will then.

You missed my point. I said he has the ABILITY to see the past and future IF HE WANTS to.

But he doesn't look into it, thus, he leaves it up to you and me to make a choice. He just shows what's right and wrong and the consequences of the decision. but up to you to make the choice.


Here let me give you an example - if you don't want to find out what the weather is going to be tomorrow, you have a choice not to watch the weather channel. Simple as that. You have the ability and the means to see the future but also have the choice what to do with it.

What you're doing is locking God in your own understanding. Either he knows or he doesn't. God doesn't work that way.

He gives freedom to all to make their own mind just as he does.

Here's a very familiar verse. I'm sure you know what it means.

[Jhn 3:16 NKJV] ""For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

So what's the point of giving his ONLY begotten if we were already predestined?


As for this:

I won't go into the Adam and Eve story, as Terrydon already pointed out that God never told them they would have eternal life if they didn't eat the apple. I also dislike how the woman is blamed, the Bible is a mysoginist book.

Here's what the scripture said:

[Gen 3:22 NKJV] "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--"

As for blaming Eve - no, it falls on Adam because he fully knew from the get go. Eve was deceived by the devil but Adam willingly disobeyed.

Hence, the scripture puts primary BLAME on Adam:

[Rom 5:12 NIV] "Therefore, just as sin entered the worldthrough one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--"

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: edmc^2
In what way am I arrogant?

Re-read your reply to me and you'll see.

So if Predestination is in the Bible, why then are we encouraged to do good and stay away from badness?

Because the Bible is full of contradictions.

But let's take a look at one of the scriptures you cited:
[1Co 2:7 NLT] "No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began."

This verse talks about God's Wisdom made secret being revealed to those who are approved by God - it had nothing to do with predestination.

We must be reading a different Bible......

-1 Corinthians 2:7: No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
-Ephesians 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will
-Ephesians 1:5: he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
-Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

Considering the context, the Bible tells us that God destined and predestined lots of thing (wisdom, salvation etc).

This tells me you didn't really put much thinking into this and just parroting what other's said.

Do you really believe the scriptures you've quoted above is about predestination of each person on earth?

That no one has control over their destiny?

Free will everyone?

According to a lot of Christians, life is set out the way it is supposed to be (predetermined).

Free will just lets you make decisions, but you'll always end up with the same ending.

I blame their leaders for teaching them this way - it's a fatalistic point of view.

It's akin to the Hindu belief that our lives are already pre-determined by the three gods/goddesses - One spools the rope, One measures it and the third cuts it.

As for free will - it says as it is.

Kinda like, allowing Adam and Eve make their own mind to obey or not to obey the command. Knowing the consequence of disobedience, they still CHOOSE to do it - Free Will has consequences. If you CHOOSE the wrong path, you'll pay the price.

I can agree with most of that.

What I can't agree with is that Adam and Eve knew the consequences. They didn't know there would be any, let alone what they would be.

They knew exactly the consequence. They just didn't care. In short, they got greedy and became selfish. They did not even thought of what will happen to their children - us.

-see what I posted above.

Again, that is YOUR interpretation of a book. There is nowhere saying they knew they would live forever if they didn't eat from the tree.

All you've done, throughout this whole thread, is add in extra bits that aren't there to make it sound better.

See my above post

a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

"8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed. 9 He made all kinds of beautiful trees grow there and produce good fruit. In the middle of the garden stood the tree that gives life and the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[d]" Gen 2:8,9 GNT

"15 Then the Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and guard it. 16 He told him, “You may eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[f] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.” Gen 2:15-17 GNT

[Gen 3:22 ASV] "And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever-"

[Gen 3:24 ASV] "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

I can't believe it!!

This is still going on? It is like a soap opera, I keep popping in regularly to see the next instalment.

Carry on

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

"8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed. 9 He made all kinds of beautiful trees grow there and produce good fruit. In the middle of the garden stood the tree that gives life and the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[d]" Gen 2:8,9 GNT

"15 Then the Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and guard it. 16 He told him, “You may eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[f] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”

Ok?

So, out of that, where does it say "if you don't eat the fruit you will live forever"?

Or are you just filling in the blanks, AKA interpreting what is there and what is not there?

Supposedly Adam and Eve had 6 sons and 2 daughters. Well, people think there were 2 daughters not named.

There must have been some daughters for the sons to have incestual sex with.

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

"8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed. 9 He made all kinds of beautiful trees grow there and produce good fruit. In the middle of the garden stood the tree that gives life and the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[d]" Gen 2:8,9 GNT

"15 Then the Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and guard it. 16 He told him, “You may eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[f] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”

Ok?

So, out of that, where does it say "if you don't eat the fruit you will live forever"?

Or are you just filling in the blanks, AKA interpreting what is there and what is not there?

Up to you to decide what it says.

originally posted by: 1984hasarrived
I can't believe it!!

This is still going on? It is like a soap opera, I keep popping in regularly to see the next instalment.

Carry on

Unfortunately, it is.

Still, there's been no science proven lol. Just interpretations and misunderstandings.

Same old same old.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

"8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed. 9 He made all kinds of beautiful trees grow there and produce good fruit. In the middle of the garden stood the tree that gives life and the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[d]" Gen 2:8,9 GNT

"15 Then the Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and guard it. 16 He told him, “You may eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[f] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”

Ok?

So, out of that, where does it say "if you don't eat the fruit you will live forever"?

Or are you just filling in the blanks, AKA interpreting what is there and what is not there?

Up to you to decide what it says.

So it's up for interpretation.

I said that how long ago?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Supposedly Adam and Eve had 6 sons and 2 daughters. Well, people think there were 2 daughters not named.

There must have been some daughters for the sons to have incestual sex with.

Here's what the scripture said:

[Gen 4:1 ASV] "And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with [the help of] Jehovah."

[Gen 4:2 ASV] "And again she bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."

[Gen 5:3 ASV] "And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"

[Gen 5:4 ASV] "and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters."

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

"8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed. 9 He made all kinds of beautiful trees grow there and produce good fruit. In the middle of the garden stood the tree that gives life and the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[d]" Gen 2:8,9 GNT

"15 Then the Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and guard it. 16 He told him, “You may eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[f] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”

Ok?

So, out of that, where does it say "if you don't eat the fruit you will live forever"?

Or are you just filling in the blanks, AKA interpreting what is there and what is not there?

Up to you to decide what it says.

So it's up for interpretation.

I said that how long ago?

no. just got tired.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2

But where does it say God said that to Adam, Eve or both?

It doesn't.

You just interpreted that he would have said it to them.

"8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed. 9 He made all kinds of beautiful trees grow there and produce good fruit. In the middle of the garden stood the tree that gives life and the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[d]" Gen 2:8,9 GNT

"15 Then the Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and guard it. 16 He told him, “You may eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[f] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”

Ok?

So, out of that, where does it say "if you don't eat the fruit you will live forever"?

Or are you just filling in the blanks, AKA interpreting what is there and what is not there?

Up to you to decide what it says.

So it's up for interpretation.

I said that how long ago?

no. just got tired.

Is that because you couldn't prove your point beyond personal interpretation?

a reply to: edmc^2

Yeah someone had a kid at 130. Sounds pretty scientifically sound.

a reply to: TerryDon79

More circular logic. The bible is the word of God. Why because the bible says so. Round and round we go. I'm still not seeing any scientific accuracy. Now we're onto Adam and Eve. How wonderful. Let's do Noah next shall we.