It has to be said that NATO doesn't need to exist anymore: there is no immediate threat to Europe like during the Cold War. it is quite frankly, an obsolete organization

the resources that Europe, USA and Canada pour into NATO should be reallocated to the UN

the EU seems, in most ways, to be an organization that aims to create a Euro Superstate

PS thanks for linking my thread Wizard

Originally posted by Daystar
It has to be said that NATO doesn't need to exist anymore: there is no immediate threat to Europe like during the Cold War. it is quite frankly, an obsolete organization

An expanded UN could easily take over the role of NATO. NATO serves no purpose anymore.

the EU seems, in most ways, to be an organization that aims to create a Euro Superstate

That it does, it sees itself as a rival to the US which is madness, we should be strengthening and repairing our ties with America not creating a rival to it.

PS thanks for linking my thread Wizard

It's relevant so i thought i'd include it

Well to be fair when people talk about the EU becoming a rival to the US they are usually speaking in economic terms. Yes I'm not forgetting Iraq and that was a minor bump in the road as it seems that alot of people just want to start putting it behind them. Canada included, not that doesn't mean we are or the countries that were against the Iraq war in the EU will start sending combat troops there its just that the slight chill in geopolitical tensions has almost thawed. At least thats my opinion on the matter. Not sure what the citizens think just the Leaders(minus France that is heh)

When people talk about an EU rivalling the USA they can only be talking about on economic terms as Europe has absolutely no desire or intention to play that idiotic 'outspend every military budget on the planet combined' stupidity the USA is currently engaged in (and has been for several years now).

I am happy to see NATO survive as another layer of international engagement and co-operation.

Just as I am the UN.

I really look forward to an explaination as to how this UN would work.
How do you propose to get along with or without the votes and vetos......and which countries do you imagine accepting this? Certainly you can go whistle as far as the US is concerned and it giving up it's veto to UN control.

I am amused though at the jibes against what some imagine Europe is in the process of becoming as opposed to the actual behaviour of countries which are making the UN unworkable now.

That and the idea that the EU is just a drain on 'our' funds.

That's pretty funny.............. simplistic and wrong, of course.

If you can't 'do' meaningful unity in your own region how the hell do you expect anyone to work stuff out globally?

UK Wizard I agree with what you have said. The only problem I see is the likes of the USA are quite happy to trash the UN and mayabe talk of reforms but are they willing to put there words into action?
Who is Bush going blame when the world dosnt follow his agenda if he cant blame the UN?

When people talk about an EU rivalling the USA they can only be talking about on economic terms as Europe has absolutely no desire or intention to play that idiotic 'outspend every military budget on the planet combined' stupidity the USA is currently engaged in (and has been for several years now).

Oh come now sminkeypinkey have you forgotten where you are posting NWO ring a bell, or a New Roman Empire etc. heh always get a chuckle whenever I read that EU United is better then EU Devided, look where that got you guys, 2 world wars, countless revolutions and ever changing boundries that are pretty constant when you view it in an Historical standpoint. United States of Europe...Bad Idea IMHO, but an Economic Bloc with basic rights and freedoms as the tenets as well as the sovereighnty of each member nation(and the right to vote to withdraw from the EU as well) is the way to go.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Oh come now sminkeypinkey have you forgotten where you are posting NWO ring a bell, or a New Roman Empire etc. heh always get a chuckle whenever I read that

- Sorry, I forgot.

EU United is better then EU Devided, look where that got you guys, 2 world wars, countless revolutions and ever changing boundries that are pretty constant when you view it in an Historical standpoint. United States of Europe...Bad Idea IMHO, but an Economic Bloc with basic rights and freedoms as the tenets as well as the sovereighnty of each member nation(and the right to vote to withdraw from the EU as well) is the way to go.

- Too right I couldn't agree more.

Whats more I believe that is exactly what is being 'built' in the EU right now.

I find it an excellent part of the 'EU project' that we are extending the people's rights and freedoms across Europe on a common basis although it is, sadly, one of the much underestimated parts of the entire undertaking IMO.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
When people talk about an EU rivalling the USA they can only be talking about on economic terms

The EU needs no army with guns it has a army of burocrats to wear down all that oppose it, it's common knowledge that the EU doesn't like the US, the EU would be quite happy is the US's economy crashes as it will mean more money for the EU.

That and the idea that the EU is just a drain on 'our' funds.

Funds, resources, political power etc could be put towards the UN rather than the EU, the UN can achieve far more than the EU can ever do.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
it's common knowledge that the EU doesn't like the US,

- Wizard I won't ask you to back that rhetoric up as I know you can't.

That's just daft.

The people in the EU are known, on balance, to be hostile to the current US administration's foreign policies is the much more accurate statement and put like that gives an entirely different slant to things.

Especially as many many people and families in the USA and Europe are related by immediate blood ties.

the EU would be quite happy is the US's economy crashes as it will mean more money for the EU.

- .....and this statement goes way beyond daft as well as being simply wrong.

Have you the slightest idea of the repercussions for the global economy if any of the worlds large economies 'went down' - never mind one as big as the USA's?

Can you imaine how long and deep the global depression would be....waaaaay worse in the UK than either of Major or Thatcher's efforts!

To say Europe and the EU would be "happy" about an American collapse and enriched somehow by this, and all the ripples that would follow out from it, is quite simply nothing short of insane.

Where the hell did you get this idea from?
What (why) on earth are you (not) 'thinking'?

Funds, resources, political power etc could be put towards the UN rather than the EU, the UN can achieve far more than the EU can ever do.

- ....and yet despite all this, to you, obvious immeadiate potential it hasn't, whereas the EU has.

So how come?

Maybe it's because the world needs to begin developing it's integration more locally first, hmmmm?

Walk before you run, hmmm?

Or is the point really (as might well be indicated by your first comments) really one all about your hostility to the EU and not actually so much about the UN afterall, hmmm?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The people in the EU are known, on balance, to be hostile to the current US administration's foreign policies is the much more accurate statement and put like that gives an entirely different slant to things.

The EU sees America as the American Administration they don't see different peoples within the US they only see Bush.

Especially as many many people and families in the USA and Europe are related by immediate blood ties.

An American is American, you could say we're African as we evolved in Africa.

- ....and yet despite all this, to you, obvious immeadiate potential it hasn't, whereas the EU has.

So your saying the UN doesn't have as much potential as the EU?

Or is the point really (as might well be indicated by your first comments) really one all about your hostility to the EU and not actually so much about the UN afterall, hmmm?

One of the reasons I dislike the EU so much is that the EU is bad for Britain and the world, the EU is isolationist agains those not in the EU.

UK
GDP: 1563.6
Population Millions:59.76
GDP per Papita 26,165
EU Prosperity Ranking 2002: 6
EU Prosperity Ranking 2001: 4

In the past couple of years the UK has dropped in the EU Prosperity Ranking.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
The EU sees America as the American Administration they don't see different peoples within the US they only see Bush.

- OK, that's your opinion.
I think that is utterly wrong - especially when one is talking about the political leadership in the US or the nations states of the EU....as our own PM talks about often enough, but have it your way.

An American is American, you could say we're African as we evolved in Africa.

- Yes you could.
That just goes to illustrate how meaningless all these artifical divisions are, eh?

So your saying the UN doesn't have as much potential as the EU?

- No; that isn't what I said.

The UN may ultimately have vast potential, maybe more than the EU in the very long run but for now the EU's potential is by far the more immeadiate and realisable whereas the UN's is not.

Like I said, how do you convince the world to co-operate if you happily destroy one of the greatest most practical examples of regional integration it has?

One of the reasons I dislike the EU so much is that the EU is bad for Britain and the world, the EU is isolationist agains those not in the EU.

UK
GDP: 1563.6
Population Millions:59.76
GDP per Papita 26,165
EU Prosperity Ranking 2002: 6
EU Prosperity Ranking 2001: 4

In the past couple of years the UK has dropped in the EU Prosperity Ranking.

- ....and what?
You refuse to see any other reason for this other than EU membership!?

....and with UK prosperity falling (relatively speaking) your suggested remedy is to leave our position of full membership of the biggest single market in the world?!