Will a baseline income change who you are?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: uncommitted
The money is already print out of thin air and the currency value can be controlled at will.

Yes. But producing money is of course the wrong way: we need to produce goods and services, and distribute these goods and services in an honest way. We all understand that a society can only work if people contribute to it. And as it is now, we use money to distribute services and goods in an honest way - but that fails us miserably. So, we need to get rid of it, and find a better way.

Baseline income is like putting a patch on a wound that needs stitches. It may seem to help for a while, but the bleeding does not stop.

a reply to: uncommitted

I've heard of the Alaskan payment scheme before, I believe there was mention of something similar happening with the Falklands. I have heard of other schemes elsewhere but never on the scale of Alaska.

The hypothetical I put forward was with today's figures and what I was suggesting was replacing jobseekers allowance with this universal credit that everyone under a certain threshold receives. I just mentioned £16,000 as a hypothetical cap, in all honesty the universal credit would be £5000-£10,000 if I was implementing it... basically doubling today's benefits and minimum wage would be about £10, the cap would then be £40,000.

It would have to be capped at some point for fairness. Oh and I couldn't read that PDF I think I need to update my reader.

originally posted by: RAY1990
Is it literally just food stamps for the unemployed in the US?

For the most part yes. There is a housing program but it's severely under funded and prioritized based on need, so it usually goes to working single mothers first. People without children are very far down the list. This is the case with the US's entire welfare system. It's not designed to support adults, it's designed to support a persons children if they can't afford them.

I see no problem with financial security. Imagine if when Bill Gates died he distributed his wealth fairly across all Americans, that alone would secure a peaceful life for many for a while but then again it's not needed because we already have enough resources for all to thrive never mind survive.

Bill gates is worth 80 billion, that's a 1 time payment of $252 per person.

originally posted by: onequestion
Romans didn't have massive manufacturing facilities and robots.

During Roman times everyone had to work in order for everyone to survive we live in a totally different paradigm.

Roman citizens had a high unemployment rate. You could be fed and sheltered without working and slave labor took many jobs from citizens.

a reply to: Aazadan

That's true but they still couldn't mass manufacture everything they needed more physical labor to get everything we're reaching a point where we don't need manual labor as much and less and less. And

A stipulation might be that one must do public service if able to elderly, military ( if needed ) and other direly needed every once in a while as well as agree to be a responsible law abiding citizen/subject in return for the aid or else. You know maybe people will learn a little humility/humanity from such experiences.

Also with the revolution of 3-d printing and computer learning technology maybe we could get some more innovation squeezed out of that with enough people able to sock money away if they choose that path.

Forgot to mention hygene may improve among those who currently lack for proper items to do that.

Seems to me that with the way things are going the governments of the world are expecting a hard crash and ensuing chaotic resource disputes.

So in terms of security just tie the money to a card or whatever you want and the government can create a grid of purchases to track along with the drone networks they are going to roll out.

I just hope they don't say fock it and turn the darpa robots on everyone in a Final Solution type of maneuver and if they don't get us the super bugs will which I believe can be avoided with drone delivery systems for food/supplies in an all out epidemic.

a reply to: Aazadan

The Rothschilds are worth 300 trillion

originally posted by: Asdfem
a reply to: Aazadan

The Rothschilds are worth 300 trillion

How did you come to that conclusion?

the only way a 'baseline income' will alter my life


is my needing to create couple more identities to receive that money-income...under different names/SSNs/personna's

a reply to: St Udio

It comes with a chip.

a reply to: onequestion

I could talk about this great deal. I am a member of a tribe that distributes per capita payments.

originally posted by: MiddleInitial
a reply to: onequestion

I could talk about this great deal. I am a member of a tribe that distributes per capita payments.

Please share your insights.

Has it helped or hurt your community and in what ways?

Are you a single female that likes white guys?

a reply to: Azureblue

You hit on an important point. It's not a question of "if" a "baseline income" changes us, but whether those changes will be good or bad.

When I turned 21, I began receiving tribal per capita payments monthly. It's enough to live on, but not extravagantly. I wasn't anywhere near mature enough to have money on my hands with no obligations. That's just my situation.

a reply to: MiddleInitial

How has it affect you long term?

Are you a lazy good for nothing or do you work or have hobbies?

Many posters operate under the illusion that they will become lazy fat couch potatoes.

a reply to: onequestion

It's hard for me to find the best place to start on this topic. I think that the question posed (Would a baseline income change who you are?) will have a different answer depending upon who the "you" is, who is giving the money, and how many other people share the same pie.

In my tribe, some people have done good things with the per capita payments (saved and invested while also earning wages), but the majority (sadly, myself included) has not.

My personal story (abridged): I left home at 15 (alcohol, drugs, problems at school/home) and had literally no clue that I would be receiving money from the tribe because I grew up in Oregon (the tribe is in the north Sacramento Valley). I had worked in various low-wage jobs until I turned 21, at which time I received a lump sum in excess of 20k, with (much smaller) continuing monthly payments. I was delivering pizzas at the time I turned 21, and my exact thought back then was "I'll never work again". I was already a drunk, and at that point I didn't even have to work to sustain it, so why would I?

It's not as if ALL I did was sit around getting drunk those years. Have you ever seen the movie Office Space? The protagonist, Peter, ponders the question "what would you do if you won a million dollars?", the answer of which is supposed to be tour true calling in life. Though I haven't been given quite a million dollars, I have been very much in the position to relate to the basic question. I've spent my time playing music, learning about music, and writing and recording songs. At one point, I thought I'd try to make a career out of it, but I don't think I'm good enough, and I certainly don't have the social skills to be successful in it.

So I am very much in an awkward position in my life. I am 34, I have no career or prospects. I have lived comfortably in a vacuum and while I don't consider myself dumb, I am basically clueless about how to support myself in our society. It is ironic, this money was given to me in the spirit of improving myself. In spite of how much I appreciate the time I've been able to spend pursuing music, and grateful that I survived my experiences with alcohol, I feel somehow as if I'd have been better off pushing the mop.

I could go on and on about his. Actually, it's been on my mind a lot lately. I'm pretty much going on emotion now and I'm not even sure if this all "flows" or not. I don't mean to say that everyone would respond portly to a baseline income, but youngsters like myself with lots of problems and no role models? I'm still undoing the damage.

a reply to: onequestion

Many people would become lazy couch potatoes. Many would not. I personally haven't ever considered myself lazy, but I'm sure lots of folks would criticize my lifestyle. I like learning: that's why I'm here.

originally posted by: Asdfem
a reply to: Aazadan

The Rothschilds are worth 300 trillion

I find that number ridiculous, but going with it, even if you took all 300 trillion and distributed it among all 7 billion people on earth that's still just $43,000 per person or roughly 1 slightly below average years worth of work. It's not all that much when you think about it.

This underscores most peoples misunderstanding about wealth. The value of your assets means very little, what matters is the speed at which your assets generate new income. Lets take an example, if someone saves for 30 years in order to buy their $500,000 dream home even though they were capable of making a large purchase they're not wealthy. If someone buys it in just 1 year though? That's pretty wealthy.

What makes the Rothschilds wealthy is that their assets generate income quickly.

a reply to: MiddleInitial

I've thought about if I wanted to reply to this and give my experiences as well for the past couple days, I was going back and forth but in the end figured why not. I also get what you could consider to be a basic income, not a tribal payment but rather I get disability and a little bit of grant money for attending school in addition to food stamps if you want to count them. All in all my income is equal to about $24,500 per year, broken down by month it's $750 in disability, $65 in food stamps, $300 in education grants (beyond my tuition), and $920 in free tuition (I goto an inexpensive school, specifically so that tuition is fully covered and that I'm not paying anything out of pocket).

My situation is not at all normal and I am extremely fortunate, but in a sense the government really likes people with disabilities who are furthering their education, especially when the goal is to reach a respectable income from full time employment (or self employment in my case) so they're pretty generous which I am very thankful for, as it has enabled me to learn and achieve much more than I would be able to do otherwise and ultimately gives me a chance at having some opportunity in life. The opportunity to be self employed is a big one for me as my disability (without going into what it is) is effectively a scarlet letter that makes me unhirable for any real job after a simple background check, which is illegal but also just how business and human nature works.

You're a year older than me, so we're in a similar place in life, though we've had very different experiences. After graduating HS I went to college, didn't put in the work and failed out destroying the college fund my parents put aside (that it was worth very little due to the 9/11 induced recession didn't help matters). Then I got sick for a few years, and by the time I recovered enough to do anything I was 24 when I finally got serious about going back to school. I still remember that day quite clearly: I was working as a delivery driver for a deli at the time, and was at home on the weekend. I was sitting in my bedroom staring at my telephone and decided that I didn't want to continue working these types of jobs for the rest of my life, and I didn't want to rely on the uncertain future of disability payments so I decided to go to the local community college. 4 weeks later my boss fired me for attending school saying it was a problem that I scheduled a class after work because it meant I couldn't work overtime if required. I've now been in school for 10 years trying to get to the point where I can independently do what I want. In that time I've picked up 3 Associates degrees and a Bachelors. I have 60 credit hours to go to finish my goal (I only take 12/semester for health reasons) having already gained about 340 credits. The truth is, I could probably drop out and do what I want now with the skills I have but being so close I want to finish, and I still have a (very) small amount of hope that I could open up the option of being hired by someone else one day, and finishing helps with that.

I've met a lot of people on disability, which is like a basic income. Some are content to just coast through life on the meager amount they're given, while others have taken it and worked for something greater instead using it as a tool to make that possible. I don't see what the problem is if people don't want to take their low income and leverage it into something greater. No matter how hard people work, there is always going to be a bottom 1% in society with the lowest income, and I think that if you're in the bottom few percent, the least society can be doing for you is in giving you the freedom to have a lot of spare time and enjoy it. The world would be much worse if these people were in the bottom few percentiles for whatever reason but also had to work dead end jobs to sustain that. In essence they would have no upward mobility and be receiving nothing from society, but still contributing to it. If society isn't giving you anything, why should you give back?

I just don't see what the problem is with the freedom to "be lazy" as you put it. All that means is that those who don't want to be lazy will see greater rewards because they'll have less competition in the work force. In an era where machines are replacing people, I think that reducing competition for those who do want to work is a good thing. Additionally, people tend to compare themselves relative to others, a person living on a meager income but seeing others living it up by working, is going to want to increase their own income and having a baseline allows them to support themselves while learning the skills to do so.

You mention that you would have been better off pushing a mop. Are you sure about that? You would have much less income and much less time. You may or may not have the talent to be a musician, but if you were working a job (or more likely 2 jobs) you wouldn't have had the time to get your music skills to where they are now and if you're not good enough now, you definitely wouldn't be if you had 60-80 fewer hours available each week.

Sick society will continue to beat down the poor - those masses
who have a net worth less than $1000 and an income less then
$20,000 a year.

The insane are labeled well and the well labeled insane - this
process quiets the hordes. Unemployment and hunger are the
demoralizers that cause people to lose lust and wonder if they
can ever get the income for life from the government - SSD/SSI
for a health issue that prevents them from working in the job area
where they have worked before or are qualified. On disability, it
is possible that you become ineligible, and that is not good
because the amount of food one can buy with the dollars of
food stamps is insufficient to buy enough food even for 1/2
the period.

As long as people are born with the chance of going into poverty
someday a great injustice is done to people and society wallows
in the sty of idiocy, insanity, incompetence and ignorance. With
humongous populations seeking a good life failure is certain.

Good thing is today there are out there in the billions of persons
those whose life was saved because of a benefactor. Imagine if
every person could benefit and embrace the joys of a good life.