The Rich and the Rest

a reply to: Aazadan

Ok, why do practice needs to be done in an overpriced college? Why can't the real artists (not the fabricated ones) do this by themselves like they were doing centuries ago? They didn't need to pay 70k just to get the damn paper that says they are able to do what other people told them? They just did what they loved and some people liked it, some others not. That's just it.



ETA : i agree that 70k is maybe high but it was to illustrate my point...

a reply to: Edumakated

On the general topic of economic mobility and taking control of one's fate, your is probably the single best post I've ever seen on ATS.

originally posted by: thinline

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: lordcomac

I think the arts are an important part of our culture and I would hate to live in an artless world.

So one needs to go to college for 4 years to learn how to be an artist? Instead of paying college, buy some arts supply for the next 4 years then with the $100,000 left go travel.

instead of paying for college, work some local theaters and learn your craft.

This is such a fallacy.

Despite what you want to believe, there is a very real educational side to creating art that makes sense; and don't give me that bull# about art being "in the eye of the beholder". There are very complex theories involved; and a incredibly small percentage of people possess understanding of those natively.

originally posted by: bigwig22
a reply to: Aazadan

Ok, why do practice needs to be done in an overpriced college? Why can't the real artists (not the fabricated ones) do this by themselves like they were doing centuries ago? They didn't need to pay 70k just to get the damn paper that says they are able to do what other people told them? They just did what they loved and some people liked it, some others not. That's just it.



ETA : i agree that 70k is maybe high but it was to illustrate my point...

Centuries ago we had an apprenticeship program where masters would provide critiques of their students work. Today we don't have that, the closest thing is having some art teachers that properly critique your work. You don't learn to create art merely by doing or copying Bob Ross videos it's mostly through the feedback of others that you learn proper techniques just like any other skill.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Edumakated

What years were this roughly? You mention unpaid internships, which really started in the financial sector in I think the 90's but they're the standard these days. I also know that since the financial crisis the number of companies that will pay for you to get a degree have been cut back significantly, though some companies will still pay for individual classes (again, this is most common for business classes, most other professions expect you to cover school yourself).

I also take issue with it because of the fact that not everyone can handle full time school plus a full time job, it's really a crap shoot of who your instructors are, what they expect, and natural limitations... some people just can't do that much, but it doesn't mean they should be barred from success.

Last, I find it a bit insulting that you claim poor people don't have a plan. The economics of being poor work much different. Most poor people have to plan things on 5 to 10 year increments. If your car suddenly gives out, it's pretty disastrous unless you've been planning for it. Education is similar, I have never once in my life met a poor person who didn't have a plan for self improvement. The difference between them and you is the opportunity to execute your plan came along while for someone else it didn't.

I graduated college in mid 90s. Most major corporations pay interns very well... particularly Wall Street and other service oriented companies as they are competing for best and brightest. I'm sure they could get away without paying, but that is highly unusual. I know entertainment/fashion industry is known for taking advantage of interns and entry level employees (ironic considering those industries are full of self-righteous libs). Certain industries tend to put more emphasis on graduate education and therefore are willing to pay for it.

The point though I was trying to make is that I set some goals and laid out a plan to to get there. It wasn't something that happened overnight. However, I didn't find the path that particularly challenging either. It just took patience and the ability to see the consequences of my actions and how they interplay on future opportunities. Did I encounter road blocks along the way? Sure I did. However, you just adjust and stay on the plan the best you can.

I also learned life is not fair which is why you don't see me crying and whining. There were career opportunities I didn't get because I didn't go to the right school. Maybe I just messed up an interview. I also thought I would start my own business. Quickly found out that you need money to start a company and I didn't have any. Daddy couldn't front me $150k to get my idea off the ground. All I could do was play the hand I was dealt.

I always find it ironic when successful people give advice that many people don't want to listen. What is the saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink?

a reply to: Edumakated

You also graduated college in one of the strongest economies ever.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Edumakated

You also graduated college in one of the strongest economies ever.

I think the "yuppies" of the 80's may disagree with that point.

That notwithstanding.... I find it amazing that you seem to find any excuse to not give credit to anyone that has bettered their lot in life.

Assuming Edumaketed is who he says he is.... it's a product of WHEN he graduated? He deserves NO credit for his planning and execution?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Edumakated

You also graduated college in one of the strongest economies ever.

Yes, the economy was strong.... but I also graduated from b-school when the dotcom era imploded and 9/11. Also worked through the housing bubble implosion. There is never a perfect time and you will always get some curve balls thrown at you.

originally posted by: Edumakated
I graduated college in mid 90s. Most major corporations pay interns very well... particularly Wall Street and other service oriented companies as they are competing for best and brightest. I'm sure they could get away without paying, but that is highly unusual.

I know entertainment/fashion industry is known for taking advantage of interns and entry level employees (ironic considering those industries are full of self-righteous libs). Certain industries tend to put more emphasis on graduate education and therefore are willing to pay for it.

I don't know the breakdown of who gives them out, but the financial industry is still very well known for unpaid internships. The tech sector is well known for them too, which I know a little more about. You're not going to get an unpaid internship at one of the Big 4, instead you'll be paid pretty well but only a small fraction of people get those internships and it's pretty much all luck based. There's book knowledge you need, but then it comes down to having practiced the right technical scenario they give you on the skills test. There's no way to prepare for them all or to even be aware of them all, either you guess right and practice the right one or you don't.

There's other companies too, but like I said quite a few expect you to do unpaid work, which is actually illegal (by law unpaid intern's aren't allowed to produce anything of actual value of the company), but who ever said labor laws are enforced? Most companies just look at it as a way to get some cheap development in.

Many universities have gotten in on it too, they set people up in an internship as part of their course requirements and give college credit for it, which of course means you pay the school for those credits. But the company doesn't pay you either. So you in essence pay to get an unpaid internship.

The point though I was trying to make is that I set some goals and laid out a plan to to get there. It wasn't something that happened overnight. However, I didn't find the path that particularly challenging either. It just took patience and the ability to see the consequences of my actions and how they interplay on future opportunities. Did I encounter road blocks along the way? Sure I did. However, you just adjust and stay on the plan the best you can.

From what I've found in life, the problem with this type of thinking is when a plan has no payoffs partway through. In your case for example, partway through the education you wanted you got a decent job, then a company offered to cover your MBA. I have found the exact opposite, it's all or nothing, and if something disrupts the plan, all the effort you put into it is wasted. I suppose this varies by field to an extent, or it could just be a symptom of the area of the country in which I live.

I also learned life is not fair which is why you don't see me crying and whining.

My whining is for a much different reason, mainly that I'm sick of throwing endless amounts of work into a void with no end to that happening any time soon, but whatever... that's the field I chose because I put very high expectations on myself. I just like to rant about it to blow off steam.

I've said it before but I think the problem for most people isn't that they're unable to get a 1% type of salary, doing that isn't really all that hard if you're willing to work in the right fields and live in the right area (finance in NYC, tech in SV, being the big two). It's that they're unable to get what they feel is a fair salary for the type of work they want to do. Most of the so called middle class jobs have been seeing declining wages for 40 years now, and that's all that most people want. I don't think most people set all that high of expectations, they want to do something like work a CNC, be a middle manager, a pipe fitter, or a small business owner, or a secretary. Those aren't jobs that will make you wealthy, but they feel to most folks like honest work to raise a family on. And that's what I think the main issue is. People can't hold those jobs and raise a family the way they were raised anymore.

Then there's an entire other section of society, some who have relevant degrees and some who don't that feel slighted they're working service sector jobs because there just isn't enough work to go around.

originally posted by: eluryh22
Assuming Edumaketed is who he says he is.... it's a product of WHEN he graduated? He deserves NO credit for his planning and execution?

Not no credit, but it's not much of a step above merely remembering to breathe. Literally every single person who goes to college makes that type of plan. The only difference is that opportunity comes along for some people and not others. Where you live or choose to work plays a huge role in available opportunity. It's 1000x easier to get a job paying 6 figures in a city like San Francisco or NYC than in some small rural town. Not every persons circumstances permit them to move for a job however.

Only 1% of people can be in the top 1%, that doesn't mean that only 1% of people do everything right. Regardless of the actions you take, you've got a decent chance of being in the bottom 10% based on nothing more than the circumstances of your interviews. Plus what you're paid is pretty much a game of chance, it has very little to do with how good you are at your job, but instead mostly has to do with your field and how you market yourself, as proof of that... I'm sure you know of people better paid than you at what you do, who have worse skills than you.