The Rich and the Rest

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: onequestion

It is a losing battle to compete against companies that move overseas. They can employ millions of workers for pennies on the dollar, with no benefits and long hours.

The Trump talk about how America will become competitive with China is a scary idea. How does one become competitive with China with little regulation, and an average employee earning less in a day than a burger flipper makes in an hour? Will we get heavy import tariffs or economic 'free zones'?

Heavy import tariffs, obviously. I'm baffled as to why that idea scares anyone not invested deeply in off shoring.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

They tend to lead to trade wars... which result in world wars...

The rest is history.

a reply to: GodEmperor

...which historically result in huge growth for the US middle class.

Worth the risk as far as I'm concerned. I see no reason to pay extortion and ransom just to avoid kicking another nation's ass.

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: onequestion

It is a losing battle to compete against companies that move overseas. They can employ millions of workers for pennies on the dollar, with no benefits and long hours.

The Trump talk about how America will become competitive with China is a scary idea. How does one become competitive with China with little regulation, and an average employee earning less in a day than a burger flipper makes in an hour? Will we get heavy import tariffs or economic 'free zones'?

Disclaimer: I have already said in this thread that I know the system (the game) is messed up but it is up to the individual to do his/her best to understand the game and do their best to succeed for the benefit of him/herself as well as his/her family.

That being said, and this is really just a "my two cents" sort of thing....

1) What aggravates me is going back a number of decades, TPTB basically sold people on the idea that, "It's ok if we ship lesser skilled manufacturing jobs oversees because we are going to have more and more and more high skilled tech jobs to make up the difference." THEN... TPTB ran roughshod around the H1B Visa program and for the IT jobs that weren't outsourced directly, those living and working in the United States for the entirety of their career were replaced by foreign workers under a program that (as I understand it) was designed to be a stop-gap for when local workers could not be located. As infuriating as that is.... the part that really grinds my gears is there are STILL people that perpetuate that lie and even more... some people STILL BELIEVE IT!!!!

2) Based on my previous point about the jobs market and what "they" are doing to it... I understand and in some ways agree that the Trump tariff-stop-jobs-from-leaving-and-bring-them-back is a scary proposition and has many pitfalls. However, why is it that there are NO alternatives being provided (except for my first point which is clearly and demonstrably a lie). Why is it that (it seems) the United States just has to suck it up and accept that we are forever doomed to lose jobs to outsourcing, relocation of manufacturing or submit to the abuses of the H1B visa program. Why can't there be SOME movement in the realm of tariffs that SLIGHTLY move the balance scale a bit closer in our favor?

Or are "we the people' expected to just roll over and die (as, in many ways, we have been doing for a very long time).

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Sounds good, until someone gets M.A.D.

Nobody wins in the next big one. Guaranteed.

Four replies to the same person, I promise I'm not trying to single you out. Apparently I just strongly disagree.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
After all, life's achievements only have the value you, YOURSELF, have invested into them... If we make college free, don't piss and moan when suddenly there are 50 pre-med students to every opening in the workplace. Also don't feign shock when half the taxpaying workforce says "screw this noise!" and quits working to go back to free ride college themselves, making the program completely unsustainable.

The value in a degree or education is in knowing the material, not in paying for it. If a bunch of people left low paying dead end jobs to go to college and try to do better, two things would happen. First of all, those low paying jobs would start paying more to compete. Second of all, society as a whole would be more learned and more skilled.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Easy problem, easy solution: Not everyone should go to college. Stop adding worthless degree programs in the liberal arts and stop offering loans to those who want those classes. Also eliminate the federal subsidies on student loans completely. Make lenders actually have to weigh the risks involved with each borrower and let's return college to what it should be: an institute mostly filled with people who possess the merits between their ears to deserve to be there.

There are many unprofitable jobs that we still want in society, and some of those jobs require a good deal of knowledge. Teaching is notorious for being poorly compensated, yet we need smart teachers. Historians are important to society yet they don't pay well either. Social workers are another one.

I disagree with the second part of your statement as well, because how will you ever know what a persons merits are unless you let them try? The program I'm in right now is quite difficult, it has an 8% graduation rate and to be perfectly honest I am by far too stupid to deserve to be in the program. Should I not still get the opportunity to try and pick up some skills along the way?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
...and we have 45% of tax filers paying negative net taxes, taking more than they're paying in thanks to the bleeding heart factory of society.

I'd rather take my chances in a cutthroat world of capitalism where at least hard work and adding of value equates to meaningful paychecks and earned benefits.

That statistic is misunderstood. It's not just people getting more back in benefits from the government than they're paying. It also includes those who get paid by the government such as the military, police, teachers, road crews, and firefighters among other occupations. In fact if you get more from the government by doing some work for them (such as a small business with a small contract, like someone refilling vending machines) and it results in more than you pay in taxes, you're in that category.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
The only advantage people with more money have is that they don't end up saddled with student loan debt... The rest of it reads like typical class warfare horsecrap to me.

People with more money end up in "better" schools too. Better in this case not just in offering more networking opportunities but in schools with grade inflation or even no fail policies. I think it was Princeton last year that claimed a 100% pass rate in their classes, and they bragged about it like it's a good thing. All it really means is that they don't fail anyone or check to see if knowledge was actually learned/applied. The poor typically go to schools with much lower pass rates.

a reply to: eluryh22

You are missing one key factor.

Nations are joining the ranks of the other archaic and barbaric forms of social control. What loyalty does a transnational corporation have to the US?

Globalization of resources greatly benefits 'TPTB', localization of resources only benefits the 'plebs'. There won't be any meaningful proposals in a system based on infinite growth, it's about the bottom line for the top tier; the only difference between the past and now, is the level of technology ensures no alternatives.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I have no problem with people getting an art degree, but don't expect ME to pay for it...especially when it isn't something you will ever be productive with unless you plan to teach.

Art degrees are in heavy demand in marketing and entertainment fields. Texture artists depending on the studio (mostly based on city) make between 80k and 120k, and that's to start. 3d model designers get 100k. Animators get 80k. Concept artists are also 80k. Matte painters get 90k and I could continue. If you don't believe me, google those job titles and look at sites like Glassdoor.

a reply to: Aazadan

The value in a degree or education is in knowing the material, not in paying for it.

I suppose this is a matter of perspective... but in my opinion the "value" of a degree is up to the individual. Some people view the value of the degree as a certification that they have reached a certain level of understanding of the subject matter. To others, the value is the type of career (and income) that said degree will provide. (To be candid, I'm in the latter school of thought).

There are many unprofitable jobs that we still want in society, and some of those jobs require a good deal of knowledge. Teaching is notorious for being poorly compensated, yet we need smart teachers. Historians are important to society yet they don't pay well either. Social workers are another one.

From what I've seen (and there are MANY exceptions to the rule) is that while there are jobs that we want in society that don't pay well is a supply-demand issue. FAR too many people want to be (or more importantly go to college to be) teachers. When there are more people that "want" to be teachers than there are openings for them, of course there is going to be a lower salary. Perhaps it's not "fair," but that is the world we live in. (Especially since schools have a limited budget and are "required" to provide interpreters for literally every language on the planet, etc, etc).

As I have stated earlier, I don't condemn people for choosing a career out passion rather than monetary gain. However, when someone makes that choice, I don't appreciate them complaining after the fact. When there is a desperate need for historians, philosophers, artists... the money will be there.

For the rest of us, we find the point where we find a career that intersects the what we like enough with what pays enough and take it from there.

a reply to: GodEmperor
I'm open to listening to your suggestion(s)....?


Or are you of a strictly "doom and gloom" variety...?

Life is not fair. Somebody somewhere will always have an advantage whether it is good lucks, more intelligence, better connections, more money, or just a bigger schlong. That's life.

All you can do is work hard to improve your own lot.

A lot of the rich are broke within two generations. Some people get rich within a generation.

2.9 Billion in unclaimed scholarships and grants.

The class warfare is contrived.

In my opinion.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Where do you claim them?

a reply to: Edumakated

Yeah why put any effort into a better world right? Why even discuss it...

a reply to: Edumakated

You s.o.b.
I wrote approximately a billion words and you summed it up in a few sentences.

a reply to: eluryh22

So your solutions to discussing how to create a better world is, "work harder"


Great guess what we all get it but I'm here to discuss options on creating a better world.

a reply to: onequestion

Don't know. I Googled unclaimed scholarships and grants and found the number.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Edumakated

Yeah why put any effort into a better world right? Why even discuss it...

Making the world a better place is a noble goal. However, forcibly taking from those who are successful to give to those who are not does not make the world a better place.

There will always be winners and losers. ALWAYS.

originally posted by: Edumakated
There will always be winners and losers. ALWAYS.

I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure it's possible to make a world of only winners.

a reply to: Edumakated

Look your just talking crap.

Your post is irrelevant. Not once did anyone say they were going to force anyone to do anything please were discussing important issues.

Do you have anything add?

Ok ok I get it work harder and get ahead.

Great thanks.