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If you don't embrace change, you are racist and bigoted.

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posted on Apr, 25 2016 @ 05:37 PM
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I really don't feel it's fair to call people that hate change to be thus. I mean, damn. We've got coins up to $2 now and next year the $5 note is going change. I hate it. It's heavy.




posted on Apr, 25 2016 @ 05:45 PM
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a reply to: intrepid

Wow you are such a bigot! What did change ever do to you? It has the right to be worth as much & be as heavy as it wants!
Racist! (coinist?)!
Does it offend you to find pennies & quarters in the men's bathroom? You sicken me.
edit on 25-4-2016 by SmurfRider because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2016 @ 05:47 PM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox
[I'm really not talking about sexual orientation. I am talking about making medical changes to a child, with no more evidence than " he says he feels like a girl, and prefers barbies,dresses and girl talk."


I'm sure you'll see it as splitting hairs but these kids don't say they "feel like" a girl (or boy), they say they ARE a girl (or a boy). Implied/implicit testing methodologies show that these kids are as solid in their gender identities as non-transgender children. Don't also confuse play or toy preferences or gender atypical or non-conforming behavior, tomboy for instance, with being transgender. Although these things can be a natural expression of that, boys don't want to become girls so they can wear dresses and play with Barbies. They do these things because emotionally, psychologically, psychically and spiritually they are girls.

Tough to comprehend. I get that.



posted on Apr, 25 2016 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Freija

You can say this stuff comes from the children, but it takes adults to buy clothes, toys and start the kind of Dr. Visits and paperwork that making those kinda changes.


And if your kid had a disease or deformity, you would do the same thing. This doesn't go away. It is a lifelong thing and ignoring or denying it runs a far greater risk to the child than trying something that makes a huge difference in the happiness and quality of life for a child.

Nobody makes a kid transgender. Nobody can make a kid not transgender by refusing to acknowledge them. This is something fundamental to a person's life, who they are and vital to their existence.
You can brain wash a human to believe anything, especially a child. I'm not saying that is the case. I'm just saying it cannot be totally discounted.


I'm also not sure that refusing to allow hormone treatments until adulthood is more dangerous for the child, than giving one hormone treatments all through puberty, then finding out you were wrong...



posted on Apr, 25 2016 @ 07:15 PM
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originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
[I'm really not talking about sexual orientation. I am talking about making medical changes to a child, with no more evidence than " he says he feels like a girl, and prefers barbies,dresses and girl talk."


I'm sure you'll see it as splitting hairs but these kids don't say they "feel like" a girl (or boy), they say they ARE a girl (or a boy). Implied/implicit testing methodologies show that these kids are as solid in their gender identities as non-transgender children. Don't also confuse play or toy preferences or gender atypical or non-conforming behavior, tomboy for instance, with being transgender. Although these things can be a natural expression of that, boys don't want to become girls so they can wear dresses and play with Barbies. They do these things because emotionally, psychologically, psychically and spiritually they are girls.

Tough to comprehend. I get that.




But the kids are not girls....

They only feel like they are...

Maybe it is a best case scenerio issue where their brains are literally wired as if they were the opposite sex and will always be that way. In that case, is there really going to be irreversible damage to a kid who waits till 18 to begin hormone therapy? It is kinda hard to show they will, because of the natural progression of their body.....

However, in the reverse worst case scenario, where you have a parent "who always wanted a girl", and that has bled over onto the child. Or the kid is gay or straight and just misdiagnosed. How much damage would be done to that kid, who was given hormone therapy all through puberty? Immeasurable damage...



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 04:45 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

I was going to just let this go so it didn't turn into a back and forth thing and I understand your difficulty accepting this but I know from my own experience with these kids, their parents and over forty years of my own research and study in this field that your statements are based on feelings about transgender kids and not on the reality of their lives, their challenges or their needs.

Most parents of these kids say and ask the same questions you have. Too young to know, what if it is just a phase, wait until they are 18, what if they're just gay, what if we're doing the wrong thing or one of my favorites is when someone says "when I was a kid, I wanted to be a TMNT, a horse, a tiger, an astronaut and you name it." This is all very common and there are some very difficult decisions to make and it is a parent's duty to learn everything that science and medicine knows about this condition to help their children in the way that is best for them.

Rest assured though none of this is done impulsively and these kids and their parents are screened, evaluated and counseled over time by a cadre of health care professionals spanning a variety of different disciplines. Nothing happens overnight and when the use of puberty blocking drugs are employed even additional time is gained before anything irreversible happens.

As to the question of if irreversible damage is caused by waiting until 18, the answer is yes. Ask any of these kids or their parents how emotionally damaging and how much agonizing pain going through the "wrong" puberty causes these kids. It drives many to suicide but thankfully with modern protocols and affirming care these tragedies are being reduced.

Imagine how your own 12 year old daughter would feel going through a boy's puberty. She may be a tomboy but I doubt she wants to be a man when she grows up. How crushing would it be for you to see her voice go deep, her breasts not to flower and grow, her body not begin to develop womanly curves and her muscles bulk up and her bone structure change due to the effects of testosterone. By 18, she's likely shaving every day and having a pretty rough time convincing others she even is a girl. It doesn't make her prospects for leading a normal and healthy life without serious emotional distress and related co-morbidities like extreme depression, anxiety and social isolation look very good. Do you think your daughter would even survive this? Do you think this is going to help her life as far as happy relationships, academics or careers go?

Sure, at great pain and expense, some of these things could be corrected. Others, no amount of magic can fix. Do you think going through all these physical changes of a boy's puberty would make her want to be a boy or do you think you would still have one incredibly troubled daughter on your hands? Don't forget there are transgender boys too.

If you happened to have a transgender daughter (born male) are you really suggesting she go through this until she's 18 just because of your uncertainty? What if she had been living as a girl since primary school? Still then? 77% of transgender children in unsupportive families not receiving care will attempt suicide. Most will run away, live on the streets, fall into drug and alcohol abuse and end up doing sex work for survival. Many of these kids come from good, conservative religious homes after being rejected or discarded by their parents.

In another scenario of having a transgender child and using puberty blockers so these changes don't happen. Are you really expecting your daughter to remain pre-pubescent until 18? I can't see that as being anything but socially and emotionally destructive and devastating. If nothing else, I'm hoping you see this isn't all as cut and dried as you might think it is.


But the kids are not girls....
They only feel like they are...


Umm? Yeah, that's what being transgender is. In this case, being a girl emotionally, psychologically and to the very core of her soul and personality but having a male body. You, me and everyone would be pretty resistant to attempts at changing who we are, our identities and our personalities and who we know ourselves to be and kids are no different. When your daughter was six, do you think there would have been absolutely anything you or anyone could have done to convince her she was really a boy? Probably not. By all testable measures, transgender children are just as sure and solid in their gender as non-transgender kids.

Read the research, follow the studies, see these transgender kids, who they are and what they're like. It is very hard for people to get a grasp on all this or not have objections against it until it touches someone close to you. Then it is a whole different ballgame.

Mental Health of Transgender Children Who Are Supported in Their Identities

Are Parents Rushing to Turn Their Boys Into Girls?

Gender Cognition in Transgender Children

The End of the Desistance Myth

I've posted these pictures in several threads now and a few above of transgender girls and am putting them here for you again now. Which would be your daughter?





edit on 4/26/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 01:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I was going to just let this go so it didn't turn into a back and forth thing and I understand your difficulty accepting this but I know from my own experience with these kids, their parents and over forty years of my own research and study in this field that your statements are based on feelings about transgender kids and not on the reality of their lives, their challenges or their needs.

Most parents of these kids say and ask the same questions you have. Too young to know, what if it is just a phase, wait until they are 18, what if they're just gay, what if we're doing the wrong thing or one of my favorites is when someone says "when I was a kid, I wanted to be a TMNT, a horse, a tiger, an astronaut and you name it." This is all very common and there are some very difficult decisions to make and it is a parent's duty to learn everything that science and medicine knows about this condition to help their children in the way that is best for them.

Rest assured though none of this is done impulsively and these kids and their parents are screened, evaluated and counseled over time by a cadre of health care professionals spanning a variety of different disciplines. Nothing happens overnight and when the use of puberty blocking drugs are employed even additional time is gained before anything irreversible happens.

As to the question of if irreversible damage is caused by waiting until 18, the answer is yes. Ask any of these kids or their parents how emotionally damaging and how much agonizing pain going through the "wrong" puberty causes these kids. It drives many to suicide but thankfully with modern protocols and affirming care these tragedies are being reduced.

Imagine how your own 12 year old daughter would feel going through a boy's puberty. She may be a tomboy but I doubt she wants to be a man when she grows up. How crushing would it be for you to see her voice go deep, her breasts not to flower and grow, her body not begin to develop womanly curves and her muscles bulk up and her bone structure change due to the effects of testosterone. By 18, she's likely shaving every day and having a pretty rough time convincing others she even is a girl. It doesn't make her prospects for leading a normal and healthy life without serious emotional distress and related co-morbidities like extreme depression, anxiety and social isolation look very good. Do you think your daughter would even survive this? Do you think this is going to help her life as far as happy relationships, academics or careers go?

Sure, at great pain and expense, some of these things could be corrected. Others, no amount of magic can fix. Do you think going through all these physical changes of a boy's puberty would make her want to be a boy or do you think you would still have one incredibly troubled daughter on your hands? Don't forget there are transgender boys too.

If you happened to have a transgender daughter (born male) are you really suggesting she go through this until she's 18 just because of your uncertainty? What if she had been living as a girl since primary school? Still then? 77% of transgender children in unsupportive families not receiving care will attempt suicide. Most will run away, live on the streets, fall into drug and alcohol abuse and end up doing sex work for survival. Many of these kids come from good, conservative religious homes after being rejected or discarded by their parents.

In another scenario of having a transgender child and using puberty blockers so these changes don't happen. Are you really expecting your daughter to remain pre-pubescent until 18? I can't see that as being anything but socially and emotionally destructive and devastating. If nothing else, I'm hoping you see this isn't all as cut and dried as you might think it is.


But the kids are not girls....
They only feel like they are...


Umm? Yeah, that's what being transgender is. In this case, being a girl emotionally, psychologically and to the very core of her soul and personality but having a male body. You, me and everyone would be pretty resistant to attempts at changing who we are, our identities and our personalities and who we know ourselves to be and kids are no different. When your daughter was six, do you think there would have been absolutely anything you or anyone could have done to convince her she was really a boy? Probably not. By all testable measures, transgender children are just as sure and solid in their gender as non-transgender kids.

Read the research, follow the studies, see these transgender kids, who they are and what they're like. It is very hard for people to get a grasp on all this or not have objections against it until it touches someone close to you. Then it is a whole different ballgame.

Mental Health of Transgender Children Who Are Supported in Their Identities

Are Parents Rushing to Turn Their Boys Into Girls?

Gender Cognition in Transgender Children

The End of the Desistance Myth

I've posted these pictures in several threads now and a few above of transgender girls and am putting them here for you again now. Which would be your daughter?









You never addressed, at all, what the effects would be of having this done if it were misdiagnosed. Apparently, not even being able to consider that a possibility???


Would those cases be a worthy sacrifice, then?


Is there any physical or medical test to confirm your sexual orientation, or your precieved gender identity? I don't think there is..... That means every inch of this is based off or feelings and/or emotions.

Emotions and feelings are not real. They are how we precieve what is real.

So that means by any criteria measurable by medical science. These kids are their original gender.


My personal opinion is that the spectrum of gender and sexual orientation is do to your brains wiring.....but their is no test for that.


By your logic if a kid "feels" like a ninja turtle long and hard enough, then they are a ninja turtle....

When in reality they precieve themselves as a ninja turtle, do to some Mis-wiring.

Now we can't rewrite people and if they are all concenting ADULTS, leave people alone, if someone wants to dress as a ninja turtle, then awesome!

But we shouldn't be surgically implanting turtle shells in children. If he wants a shell he can wait till he can make legal decisions...



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 03:04 PM
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Sadly, I've done all I can here to help and with your heart and mind closed to the idea of things that help children, I believe I am done trying to address this with you. I'll give it one last shot even though I feel it is completely pointless.


originally posted by: JoshuaCox
You never addressed, at all, what the effects would be of having this done if it were misdiagnosed. Apparently, not even being able to consider that a possibility???

Would those cases be a worthy sacrifice, then?

I guess you wish to believe the screenings and on-going evaluations by physicians, endocrinologists, psychologists and psychiatrists not to mention support groups for parents and kids are all totally incompetent and inept? That's fine, whatever. If you wish to deny 100 kids a successful course of treatment because a very few may not respond then my answer would be yes, I can live with that as an acceptable loss compared to the losses of those kids that don't have treatment. Take those 100 kids and do nothing and half are going to be dead. Treat those 100 kids in supporting and affirming families and 4% are still going to attempt suicide. If a couple kids out of this 100 have to try and un-do the affects of mis-administered hormone therapy, so be it. The needs of the many... well, you know.

Just to entertain your alarmist scenario, say at puberty you start a transgender girl on blockers then at 14, she starts on estrogen. If she's not transgender, that will probably become obvious in 2 to 3 months but let's say for the sake of your argument, she takes estrogen for a year. If she stops, most of the effects will subside although fertility may be affected. Continuing along however, say at 18 she stops. Then she's probably going to need a breast reduction.

Take a look at how many natal boys have surgery for gynecomastia. It is very rare for a transgender child that reaches adolescence to desist or change their mind.


Is there any physical or medical test to confirm your sexual orientation, or your precieved gender identity? I don't think there is..... That means every inch of this is based off or feelings and/or emotions.

Do you need a test to prove you're really heterosexual?


Emotions and feelings are not real. They are how we precieve what is real.

Isn't what we perceive to be real called um, I dunno... reality?


By your logic if a kid "feels" like a ninja turtle long and hard enough, then they are a ninja turtle....


Here is where I give up.



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 04:22 PM
link   
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You make it sound like a kid announces they are a different gender on Monday, and by Wednesday they are getting drugs and hormones. It doesn't work that way.

Most times, a kid will announce they are a different gender by the time they are 3 or 4 years old. Their parents may allow the child to dress as their identified gender along with changing their name, but it takes years of therapy before that child will take puberty blockers. Then it takes a while on puberty blockers and more therapy before they start taking hormones.

Please tell me how many times a 3 or 4 year old still claims to be a ninja turtle by the time they are 13 or 14. Betchya can't give me even one example.



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 05:33 PM
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Ignorance still prevails to correlate gender
dysphoria with SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse)
The anxiety or stress noted in these children
can simply be ascertained if investigations
were aimed at their parents/guardians.
Which would detect the majority are involved in
occultist activity.

Typically the victim's immediate family members
are the perpetrators. If family is not involved
when subsequent dysfunctional behavior
confusion is observed in a small child, then one
should immediately suspect child abuse in DAY
CARE centers.

Unfortunately even therapist are required to
adduce unequivocal evidence that such activity
is the case.

But many in the medical profession know
exactly WHY many of these children are confused.

Unfortunately societies prevalence to mask
abuse with progressive gobbledygook continues
to lead these children into more debilitating
psychosis.

PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 05:46 PM
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I saw someone use the TMNT example above so I'll use that.

I could care less if someone thinks they are supposed to be a ninja turtle. They can dress up in a costume and go about their day in it for all I care. Seriously. I. Don't. Care.

Now, the issue then becomes where the line is drawn at the accommodations we as a society at large have to make for such folks?

What if this person claims that because he's a ninja turtle he can't ride he bus due to the seat size? There will be complications if someone goes outside the bell curve of society. Where does "reasonable accommodation" end, and pure pandering and lunacy begin?

This is a very real issue we are going to have to face and ask ourselves. If we truly want to allow people to purse happiness and allow them to be whatever they want to be -- where does "within reason" lie?

Who decides when the accommodating of a group of people is "to much"? Who's call will it be? What authority are we going to look to for clear and sane guidance?

I'm dead serious. We better have some kind of groundwork or foundation for how this is going to play out. I'm all for -- and ENCOURAGE people to be, do, and express themselves. Be happy! Be YOU! ... But at what cost to everyone else that isn't like you?

I honestly don't think we're going to see people thinking they are horses and dressing up as horses and demanding buckets and troughs instead of plates used at restaurants. I do, however, we as a society need to ask ourselves some tough questions about how far we are willing to bend over backwards for other people. There has to be some kind of common sense middle ground that includes the words "undue hardship" or something. if buying buckets and troughs puts undue financial hardship on a place, then there you go.

It's just something I've been pondering in my head.



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 05:57 PM
link   

originally posted by: Freija
Sadly, I've done all I can here to help and with your heart and mind closed to the idea of things that help children, I believe I am done trying to address this with you. I'll give it one last shot even though I feel it is completely pointless.


originally posted by: JoshuaCox
You never addressed, at all, what the effects would be of having this done if it were misdiagnosed. Apparently, not even being able to consider that a possibility???

Would those cases be a worthy sacrifice, then?

I guess you wish to believe the screenings and on-going evaluations by physicians, endocrinologists, psychologists and psychiatrists not to mention support groups for parents and kids are all totally incompetent and inept? That's fine, whatever. If you wish to deny 100 kids a successful course of treatment because a very few may not respond then my answer would be yes, I can live with that as an acceptable loss compared to the losses of those kids that don't have treatment. Take those 100 kids and do nothing and half are going to be dead. Treat those 100 kids in supporting and affirming families and 4% are still going to attempt suicide. If a couple kids out of this 100 have to try and un-do the affects of mis-administered hormone therapy, so be it. The needs of the many... well, you know.

Just to entertain your alarmist scenario, say at puberty you start a transgender girl on blockers then at 14, she starts on estrogen. If she's not transgender, that will probably become obvious in 2 to 3 months but let's say for the sake of your argument, she takes estrogen for a year. If she stops, most of the effects will subside although fertility may be affected. Continuing along however, say at 18 she stops. Then she's probably going to need a breast reduction.

Take a look at how many natal boys have surgery for gynecomastia. It is very rare for a transgender child that reaches adolescence to desist or change their mind.


Is there any physical or medical test to confirm your sexual orientation, or your precieved gender identity? I don't think there is..... That means every inch of this is based off or feelings and/or emotions.

Do you need a test to prove you're really heterosexual?


Emotions and feelings are not real. They are how we precieve what is real.

Isn't what we perceive to be real called um, I dunno... reality?


By your logic if a kid "feels" like a ninja turtle long and hard enough, then they are a ninja turtle....


Here is where I give up.



No I'm sure that the majority are legitimate cases, except we are not 100% sure what it is a case of.....

We don't know how the whole gender thing works, on its baseist level. We don't know what parts of the human psyci are taught and what we are born with.

You cannot go "playing god" (I am not religious, figure of speech)with the entire lives of pre pubescent children, without a confirmed diagnosis.

"He says he has felt like he should have been born a girl, since he was 5."

Is not a medical measurement. It's not a brain scan, nor a DNA test.

That is seriously the measurement for chemically changing a child...and I understand the child has told multiple professionals over the course of a few years (can't be too many years if the kid is pre pubescent..)

But literally we would be doing that on nothing more than the opinion of a 5,7,9year old exc...

Were you compitant enough to make life long decisions before 12?

I sure as hell wasn't...hell in scared to make like long decisions at 30!!



"



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 06:03 PM
link   
a reply to: Freija


No you do not need a test to prove you are heterosexual. But you don't have 7 year olds tiring to get penile implants either.

It's a different animal when you are chemically changing a persons entire biological cycle. For you to do that to a child, I think you should need some form of medical proof.



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 06:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Freija

And I am not saying that the psychologists and such, involved in such things are all crack pots teaching pseudoscience.

I'm saying they are fallible and I'm saying that children are very impressionable.

Look at pageant moms, how far fetched is it for a trans version of that to happen? Where some insane parent brainwashes their kid because "they really wanted a daughter to dress up like a princess..", who then dr shops till they find one who agrees....

I just don't buy that it is more dangerous for a person, to wait to start hormone treatments until they are an adult and can make adult decisions. When really it is just allowing their body it's natural progression. Then it would be to feed some one reverse sex hormones all through puberty, then find out you were wrong....



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 06:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You make it sound like a kid announces they are a different gender on Monday, and by Wednesday they are getting drugs and hormones. It doesn't work that way.

Most times, a kid will announce they are a different gender by the time they are 3 or 4 years old. Their parents may allow the child to dress as their identified gender along with changing their name, but it takes years of therapy before that child will take puberty blockers. Then it takes a while on puberty blockers and more therapy before they start taking hormones.

Please tell me how many times a 3 or 4 year old still claims to be a ninja turtle by the time they are 13 or 14. Betchya can't give me even one example.






Really, so at 3 or 4, when most children only have the vaguest idea of gender roles. You decide the kid knows how it will want to spend the rest of its life enough to choose to start dressing it as its opposite sex???? 3 or 4?? Ana's that's 100% the child's idea????

At 3 or 4 my daughter wasn't compitant enough to make life long decisions...



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 06:42 PM
link   

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I was going to just let this go so it didn't turn into a back and forth thing and I understand your difficulty accepting this but I know from my own experience with these kids, their parents and over forty years of my own research and study in this field that your statements are based on feelings about transgender kids and not on the reality of their lives, their challenges or their needs.

Most parents of these kids say and ask the same questions you have. Too young to know, what if it is just a phase, wait until they are 18, what if they're just gay, what if we're doing the wrong thing or one of my favorites is when someone says "when I was a kid, I wanted to be a TMNT, a horse, a tiger, an astronaut and you name it." This is all very common and there are some very difficult decisions to make and it is a parent's duty to learn everything that science and medicine knows about this condition to help their children in the way that is best for them.

Rest assured though none of this is done impulsively and these kids and their parents are screened, evaluated and counseled over time by a cadre of health care professionals spanning a variety of different disciplines. Nothing happens overnight and when the use of puberty blocking drugs are employed even additional time is gained before anything irreversible happens.

As to the question of if irreversible damage is caused by waiting until 18, the answer is yes. Ask any of these kids or their parents how emotionally damaging and how much agonizing pain going through the "wrong" puberty causes these kids. It drives many to suicide but thankfully with modern protocols and affirming care these tragedies are being reduced.

Imagine how your own 12 year old daughter would feel going through a boy's puberty. She may be a tomboy but I doubt she wants to be a man when she grows up. How crushing would it be for you to see her voice go deep, her breasts not to flower and grow, her body not begin to develop womanly curves and her muscles bulk up and her bone structure change due to the effects of testosterone. By 18, she's likely shaving every day and having a pretty rough time convincing others she even is a girl. It doesn't make her prospects for leading a normal and healthy life without serious emotional distress and related co-morbidities like extreme depression, anxiety and social isolation look very good. Do you think your daughter would even survive this? Do you think this is going to help her life as far as happy relationships, academics or careers go?

Sure, at great pain and expense, some of these things could be corrected. Others, no amount of magic can fix. Do you think going through all these physical changes of a boy's puberty would make her want to be a boy or do you think you would still have one incredibly troubled daughter on your hands? Don't forget there are transgender boys too.

If you happened to have a transgender daughter (born male) are you really suggesting she go through this until she's 18 just because of your uncertainty? What if she had been living as a girl since primary school? Still then? 77% of transgender children in unsupportive families not receiving care will attempt suicide. Most will run away, live on the streets, fall into drug and alcohol abuse and end up doing sex work for survival. Many of these kids come from good, conservative religious homes after being rejected or discarded by their parents.

In another scenario of having a transgender child and using puberty blockers so these changes don't happen. Are you really expecting your daughter to remain pre-pubescent until 18? I can't see that as being anything but socially and emotionally destructive and devastating. If nothing else, I'm hoping you see this isn't all as cut and dried as you might think it is.


But the kids are not girls....
They only feel like they are...


Umm? Yeah, that's what being transgender is. In this case, being a girl emotionally, psychologically and to the very core of her soul and personality but having a male body. You, me and everyone would be pretty resistant to attempts at changing who we are, our identities and our personalities and who we know ourselves to be and kids are no different. When your daughter was six, do you think there would have been absolutely anything you or anyone could have done to convince her she was really a boy? Probably not. By all testable measures, transgender children are just as sure and solid in their gender as non-transgender kids.

Read the research, follow the studies, see these transgender kids, who they are and what they're like. It is very hard for people to get a grasp on all this or not have objections against it until it touches someone close to you. Then it is a whole different ballgame.

Mental Health of Transgender Children Who Are Supported in Their Identities

Are Parents Rushing to Turn Their Boys Into Girls?

Gender Cognition in Transgender Children

The End of the Desistance Myth

I've posted these pictures in several threads now and a few above of transgender girls and am putting them here for you again now. Which would be your daughter?










Yes if it were my daughter I would be waiting intolerant she was old enough to make adult decisions before feeding her hormones and such....

Also I would not have changed her name and began dressing her as a boy, because of ANYTHING she said at 4....



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 06:50 PM
link   

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You make it sound like a kid announces they are a different gender on Monday, and by Wednesday they are getting drugs and hormones. It doesn't work that way.

Most times, a kid will announce they are a different gender by the time they are 3 or 4 years old. Their parents may allow the child to dress as their identified gender along with changing their name, but it takes years of therapy before that child will take puberty blockers. Then it takes a while on puberty blockers and more therapy before they start taking hormones.

Please tell me how many times a 3 or 4 year old still claims to be a ninja turtle by the time they are 13 or 14. Betchya can't give me even one example.






Really, so at 3 or 4, when most children only have the vaguest idea of gender roles. You decide the kid knows how it will want to spend the rest of its life enough to choose to start dressing it as its opposite sex???? 3 or 4?? Ana's that's 100% the child's idea????

At 3 or 4 my daughter wasn't compitant enough to make life long decisions...


Yep. They may not totally understand the genitalia difference, but they can look at a girl and know it's a girl, or see a boy and know it's a boy. They know what a boy is and they know what a girl is. And if everyone is calling them a boy when they identify as a girl, it really tends to bother them. Like, a LOT.

Again, this process takes some time. Usually a parent doesn't put the boy in girl's clothes the day after he insists he's a girl. What the experts advise parents is to look for over time is consistent, insistent, persistent. In other words, the child doesn't just sometimes "pretend" to be a girl, like a child might sometimes pretend to be a ninja turtle. The child is a girl 24/7. The parent usually takes the child to mental health experts who have had lots of experience with transgender kids. The professional counsels the child over the course of several weeks to several months to see if, in their professional opinion, the child would be emotionally healthier if allowed to dress and look like the gender they identify with. This is in no way a permanent change, nor is it a life long decision. If the child changes their mind at this stage, they go back to what they were.

The problems that occur when children are forced to look and dress like the gender they don't identify with can be disastrous. We aren't just talking about a few hissy fits. Some 4 year olds even talk about not wanting to live anymore if they have to live as the wrong gender. That's when you can't just ignore it.



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You make it sound like a kid announces they are a different gender on Monday, and by Wednesday they are getting drugs and hormones. It doesn't work that way.

Most times, a kid will announce they are a different gender by the time they are 3 or 4 years old. Their parents may allow the child to dress as their identified gender along with changing their name, but it takes years of therapy before that child will take puberty blockers. Then it takes a while on puberty blockers and more therapy before they start taking hormones.

Please tell me how many times a 3 or 4 year old still claims to be a ninja turtle by the time they are 13 or 14. Betchya can't give me even one example.






Really, so at 3 or 4, when most children only have the vaguest idea of gender roles. You decide the kid knows how it will want to spend the rest of its life enough to choose to start dressing it as its opposite sex???? 3 or 4?? Ana's that's 100% the child's idea????

At 3 or 4 my daughter wasn't compitant enough to make life long decisions...


Yep. They may not totally understand the genitalia difference, but they can look at a girl and know it's a girl, or see a boy and know it's a boy. They know what a boy is and they know what a girl is. And if everyone is calling them a boy when they identify as a girl, it really tends to bother them. Like, a LOT.

Again, this process takes some time. Usually a parent doesn't put the boy in girl's clothes the day after he insists he's a girl. What the experts advise parents is to look for over time is consistent, insistent, persistent. In other words, the child doesn't just sometimes "pretend" to be a girl, like a child might sometimes pretend to be a ninja turtle. The child is a girl 24/7. The parent usually takes the child to mental health experts who have had lots of experience with transgender kids. The professional counsels the child over the course of several weeks to several months to see if, in their professional opinion, the child would be emotionally healthier if allowed to dress and look like the gender they identify with. This is in no way a permanent change, nor is it a life long decision. If the child changes their mind at this stage, they go back to what they were.

The problems that occur when children are forced to look and dress like the gender they don't identify with can be disastrous. We aren't just talking about a few hissy fits. Some 4 year olds even talk about not wanting to live anymore if they have to live as the wrong gender. That's when you can't just ignore it.


Parents dress their children every day without serious mental harm.....

None of the dress/fashion type stuff of gender roles is genetic. WE decided guys werar pants and girls wear dresses. Scotts decided guys wear skirts too.


Hell that would make school uniforms an atrocity!!



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

Tell me what YOU as a parent would do in this situation:

Your four year old son tells you that he is not a boy, but is a girl. He wants to go to pre-school as a girl and he wants to change his name to Sally. At first, you ignore him. He insists, every day for weeks. You explain to him that he is a boy and he must wear boy clothes and he can't change his name. Your son keeps insisting. A couple of months later, and he's STILL insisting. You explain that boy's have different "plumbing" from girls and you show him pictures. He still insists that he is a girl, no matter what "plumbing" he has.

You get angry and tell him that you don't want to hear any more about it. He's a boy and that's that. Over the course of a few more months, you hear from the pre-school teacher that your son is withdrawn and won't participate in school, or play with anyone. You notice that your son is withdrawn, quiet and sad at home too. You ask him what's wrong. He tells you that he is a girl and it makes him sad that his mom and dad won't believe him. He stops playing. He won't eat. He has trouble sleeping. He's loosing weight. He stops talking. He has all the signs of clinical depression. This goes on for MONTHS.

What, as a parent who loves their child and hates to see them suffer, do you do? The situation I have described is very similar to many parents' experience with transgender children.



posted on Apr, 26 2016 @ 07:57 PM
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originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Tell me what YOU as a parent would do in this situation:

Your four year old son tells you that he is not a boy, but is a girl. He wants to go to pre-school as a girl and he wants to change his name to Sally. At first, you ignore him. He insists, every day for weeks. You explain to him that he is a boy and he must wear boy clothes and he can't change his name. Your son keeps insisting. A couple of months later, and he's STILL insisting. You explain that boy's have different "plumbing" from girls and you show him pictures. He still insists that he is a girl, no matter what "plumbing" he has.

You get angry and tell him that you don't want to hear any more about it. He's a boy and that's that. Over the course of a few more months, you hear from the pre-school teacher that your son is withdrawn and won't participate in school, or play with anyone. You notice that your son is withdrawn, quiet and sad at home too. You ask him what's wrong. He tells you that he is a girl and it makes him sad that his mom and dad won't believe him. He stops playing. He won't eat. He has trouble sleeping. He's loosing weight. He stops talking. He has all the signs of clinical depression. This goes on for MONTHS.

What, as a parent who loves their child and hates to see them suffer, do you do? The situation I have described is very similar to many parents' experience with transgender children.






I don't buy a 4 year old can make that determination, but let's say they were 10, where that had at least something remotely close to adult reasoning and understanding of the long term effects of decisions.


I would dress them in more unisex clothes and maybe swap to a version of there name that was closer to unisex.that way you provide somewhat of a neutral platform for the child to be able to make that decision at a later age, from a more informed position.

Also you limit the teasing your kid will receive from their class mates. Dressing a 4 year old as the opposite sex and changing there name, should guarentee your kid a life as a political symbol. The push back from other parents and children would be immediate..instantly your child would be singled out as the "weird one." Who which would be repeated every single grade.


I'm an athiest. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sentence my daughter to being the only 5 year old saying God (or Santa clause lol) isn't real to 3rd graders. I know she would be a target and hamstrung in every social aspect until at least high school. Most don't figure out religion is BS till college.







 
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