Holy Trinity and why we need it

Trinities are as old as ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia and India, that I know of. To the best of my knowledge the oldest trinity is that of Nimrod, Tammuz and Semiramis. In Egypt they were known as Osiris, Horus and Isis although I am sure the mythology would have differed slightly from Egypt to Mesopotamia. I don't know enough about Hindu trinities but I do know something about monotheism, dualism and what I will call trinitarianism. Not quite polytheistict but the belief in the existence of 3 God's, specifically.

Zurvanism is one example and the best religion to explain why we need a trinity to satisfy our knowledge of the existence of evil. In Zurvanism, a form of Zoroastrianism, the concept of Boundless Time or Zurvan is instead of an impersonal force a God and creator of the God of good and the God of evil. Zurvan was the creator and Ohrmazd and Ahriman the God's over earth. Man had to choose between good and evil.

This is not the type of trinity Christianity has. You have Yahweh, (creator of good and evil) Son (power of God given to him but not equal to Yahweh who is his God also), and the Holy Spirit ( Spirit of God, purely the good).

Now it can be confusing or it can make perfect sense, depending on you and how you look at it. I see Yahweh as the source of evil, Jesus as the source of good and the Spirit as the Most High. That's because I know how Yahweh was,how Jesus was and how Jesus put the Holy Spirit as the one who you can't be forgiven for blaspheming against. That's an honor that puts him above the Father. To me, the Holy Spirit is God.

But a trinity balances out good vs evil with neutrality. And the absence of evil always leads to good.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Thank you for this thread. Your interpretation of the Christian trinity makes a lot of sense when compared to the trinities of other religions. Some may think it blasphemous to speak of YHWH as a being of evil, however, in contrast to Jesus, YHWH is very "harsh".

The Hindu Trimurti consists of the Gods:

• Brahma: Creator (Positive (Good), Birth)

• Vishnu: Sustainer (Neutral, Being)

• Shiva: Destroyer (Negative (Evil), Death)

Three ways are fun.

a reply to: Sahabi

The Hindu Trimurti consists of the Gods:

• Brahma: Creator (Positive (Good), Birth)

• Vishnu: Sustainer (Neutral, Being)

• Shiva: Destroyer (Negative (Evil), Death)

Right, right, wrong.

Shiva is not negative nor evil. He is the destroyer of the (evil) destroyers and is considered as his:

All good, at all times, at all places.

Death is not negative. Death and destruction is neccessary for new life to have space to be in.

Tell your freaking free-mason buddy's to get that straight, Sahabi. PLEASE!

a reply to: Willingly

Good/Positive and Evil/Negative are subjective terms used to contrast Duality. I am not at all alluding to modern and secular semantics or ideals of the words.

I apologize for any confusion my reply may have caused.

a reply to: Sahabi

Thank you for your compliment, I wasn't sure how it would be recieved.

Since you're interested, it's difficult to interpret the Christian trinity in comparison to the others. But my major point for the necessity of a trinity is that duality offers no source for the good vs evil Gods. By having the two sources originate from a common neutral omnipotent source, in human terms a begetter, we can introduce a sibling rivalry element to explain the source of contention between the two Gods. This makes sense to humans.

When Yahweh was credited, by his own words, with good and evil he was more Emperor than God, above the law so to speak, and his worship was more or less extorted.

The Pharisees who were learned in the Persian religion recognized that evil needed to have another source and started reinterpreting scripture. They developed new philosophies and were ready to move past pure monotheism and develop new doctrines which expressed a multiplicity in the one God and created the Kabbalah.

Christianity became aware of the dangers of pure monotheism needing a new God who was not at all like Yahweh. The Holy Spirit was given individual status and the kind Yeshua given creator status and his Father never called Yahweh or Adonai or Ha Shem or El Shaddai. So Yahweh might notbe his father and actually just the god of Israel.

It's open to interpretation but I think that Jesus was pro Torah but anti Yahweh. I believe Yahweh to be an imposter, decieving the Israelites to no end. I believe that the God who gave the ancient Israelites the Law was not Yahweh and Yahweh was edited in along with some pretty grim stories about "justice."

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
Holy Trinity and why we need it

When all is One, the "holy trinity' is a lie.
Myth.
Metaphor.
Dualistic nonsense!

As for the 'Xtian trinity';

10 Bible Passages That Might Be Totally Bogus

listverse.com...

Larry Jimenez August 11, 2015

10 The Triune Formula

Known as the “Great Commission,” Matthew 28:19 describes Jesus sending his disciples out to preach the Gospel, instructing them, “Teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” In other words, the three persons in one God. This formula is an important piece of scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity.

However, the rest of the New Testament refers to baptism only in the name of Jesus. For example, in Acts 2:38, Peter preaches that believers should “repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” This has led some to suspect that the Triune baptismal formula was added later in order to shore up the doctrine of the Trinity, which was rejected by the Arians and other early Christian sects. The fourth-century Church historian Eusebius quotes the text thus: “Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all the Gentiles in My Name.”

However, it’s considered questionable whether Eusebius was quoting verbatim, since he was sometimes prone to paraphrasing. Eusebius also quoted the longer reading elsewhere. Additionally, the Didache, a Christian text believed to have been written in the first century, contains the long form, as do writings by many of the early Church fathers. In light of this evidence, it can’t be said with any certainty that the text was added later, although various Pentecostal groups continue to insist that it was.

1 The Johannine Comma

The highly nuanced doctrine of the Trinity is a bit hazy in the Bible, so some scholars think scribes might have resorted to fabricating the scriptural proof themselves. Notably, they might have added the famous Johannine Comma to I John 5:7, which reads: “And there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” This is one passage where the case for inauthenticity is virtually a slam dunk.

Only eight extant Greek manuscripts from the 10th century onward contain the Comma. Four of these have the text only on the margin. All appear to be translations of the Latin Vulgate, itself a late text. No Church Father quotes it in debates with anti-Trinitarian heretics like the Arians. It is supposed that the Comma originated as a marginal note in certain Latin versions, eventually making its way into the Vulgate.

The few proponents of the Comma accuse the Arians of suppressing the text. They argue that Bishop Cyprian appears to reference the Comma around AD 250. In the late fourth century, St. Jerome was aware of copies with the Comma and raged against scribes who were deleting it, calling them “unfaithful translators . . . who have kept just the three words water, blood and spirit in this edition, omitting mention of Father, Word and Spirit.”

But is it really believable that the Arians could have expunged so many Greek manuscripts, even with their dominance of the Eastern Roman Empire for half a century? Textual critics think not. Modern critical versions of the Bible now usually omit the Comma. For example, the English Standard Version reads: “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.”

Existence = the complete Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = Love = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

a reply to: namelesss

Dualism and Trinitarianism are finite, relative, and subjective aspects of the infinite and absolute existential unity: All Is One.

a reply to: namelesss

I am no fan of the Christian trinity. I think it's a poorly thought out doctrine created by Catholicism, a pagan religion in disguise.

But on a psychological level, monotheism is dissapointing. You have to worship a god capable of atrocities who is the source of good and evil.

Enter Satan as the "rebel angel" and the mystical interpretation of prophetic books like Isaiah and Ezekiel. But it isn't until Revelation that Satan becomes an enemy of God and the "reign of Satan" as the ruler of earth. Like God would put the most evil being ever in charge of the earth. All this is interpreted to take away the blame for evil from God. But the Old Testament says he is responsible for good and evil in his own words.

What the trinity accomplishes is the elevation of the benevolent Jesus to God, and the Holy Spirit who is Advocate of man and Spirit of Truth to the preeminent God by making blasphemy of the Holy Spirit the only sin that won't be forgiven. That honor makes him the superior of the trinity.

And now God is only good, the mysterious Father Jesus speaks of is not Yahweh in my book either, but for those who find the belief that a savage like Yahweh is the Father of Jesus, the trinity has two pure
Good Gods and one dualistic.

Without the Holy Spirit and Jesus Yahwism is a pretty messed up belief system that believes God is only the God of Israel and every other nation is heathen or pagan, goyim or gentiles, not under Yahwehs protection and demon or Idol worshippers. Jesus brought a new philosophy that was for all. Paul took the man Jesus and successfully took the new philosophy and changed it tohis lliking and became an illegitimate apostle but with Rome behind him he suppressed the Apostolic Jewish faction.

The trinity is based off the term Godhead and is a false doctrine. I am just trying to discuss why Christianity needs it.

But call them polytheist and they will tell you the 3 are one. So that means they are all one third of a God. And it's said they are equal but the bible disagrees.

Trinitarian is the correct word.

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
a reply to: namelesss

I am no fan of the Christian trinity. I think it's a poorly thought out doctrine created by Catholicism, a pagan religion in disguise.

But on a psychological level, monotheism is dissapointing. You have to worship a god capable of atrocities who is the source of good and evil.

You are certainly describing 'religiosity', a 'belief-infection'.
Because these are 'beliefs', 'thought/imagination, ego, it is all 'duality'!
All thought/words = duality, a NECESSITY, but not 'really' the way things are.
The monotheists God is, and can only be; Omni-!
That means One!
That there can be no 'other'!
Not that 'God' is only one God floating around somewhere, but One in ans with the entirety of existrence!
You are God!
We are features of Universal One Omni- Self!
All the 'trinity', all the duality of thoughts/ego, all the 'this' not 'that... 'appearances', is 'make-believe'.
We Are One!
Even the duality of words ("To speak is to lie!" - Lao Tsu) fails in just saying 'God is One' which implies a 'two', or some 'context'.
The mystics know God because We have the experience = Knowledge of Our Universal Self, One with Universe.
What (getting to the point) are We 'worshiping' other than our isolated dualistic imagined 'God' somewhere 'out there'.
When in Union; Enlightenment/unconditional Love, everything that you say or do is is an act of Love! Would you consider that to subsume 'worship'?

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

It's like 'Gratitude'.
You do not have 'conditional gratitude' toward 'this' one or 'that' one, it is a living state of unconditional Gratitude.
Such a state of Love is Prayer, CommUnion, Oneness.

Enter Satan as the "rebel angel" and the mystical interpretation of prophetic books like Isaiah and Ezekiel. But it isn't until Revelation that Satan becomes an enemy of God and the "reign of Satan" as the ruler of earth. Like God would put the most evil being ever in charge of the earth. All this is interpreted to take away the blame for evil from God. But the Old Testament says he is responsible for good and evil in his own words.

Would you like me to interpret this for you, or is it an exposition of your literalistic/Pharisaical, dualistic 'beliefs'?
I ask because the bible is in desperate need of a 'critical update'!
Removing all the 'fat' "might" leave us with about 10 pages!
If we do a really good job, all that would be left would be a haiku (but WHAT a haiku!!!), that no one would understand.
So, back to the 10 pages... *__-

'Satan', that little red devil who sits on your shoulder, whispering into your ear (are you seated?) is 'your own (dualistic) thoughts'!
Even the bible gets this one right when it warns NEVER to 'believe' 'your' (not really yours) thoughts or feelings ('feelings' are 'thoughts')
But quote me no quotes unless you desire 'Perspective'.

What the trinity accomplishes is the elevation of the benevolent Jesus to God, and the Holy Spirit who is Advocate of man and Spirit of Truth to the preeminent God by making blasphemy of the Holy Spirit the only sin that won't be forgiven. That honor makes him the superior of the trinity.

What the 'trinity' accomplishes' is the validation and feeding of a vain belief infection!
Jesus himself said; "As I Am, so can you be!"
"All you need is Love!" *__-
That was the entire point!
Love, unconditional heals ALL duality into One!
One Omni- 'Self!'!
It is blasphemy to make anyone a 'God' and disclude anyone or anything; the 'messenger' as much as anyone!
We Are Omni-!
ALL inclusive!
One!
No God 'and' anything, not even 'Satan'!

And now God is only good, the mysterious Father Jesus speaks of is not Yahweh in my book either, but for those who find the belief that a savage like Yahweh is the Father of Jesus, the trinity has two pure
Good Gods and one dualistic.

What you say is ALL dualism! All 'God' 'and'!
There is no God 'and'..
I Am that I Am!
And to declare God being 'only' this', or 'only' that is just ignorant!
Omni- means ALL EVERYTHING; ALL 'good', ALL 'bad', ALL healthy, ALL pstchotic!
We Are an insane God!
We are also the perfect health of unconditional Love!

(T)Here is One (unchanging, ALL INCLUSIVE) Universal Reality!

Existence = the complete Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = Love = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

The trinity is based off the term Godhead and is a false doctrine. I am just trying to discuss why Christianity needs it.

Seems to me it was just 'lifted' from previous mythology.
Like virus, ignorance and superstition will live as long as 'Satan' exists, and anyone who is insane by their 'beliefs'/duality!
A 'religion' is the congregation of those infected by the same strain of 'belief'!
It is the vanity, the duality, the insanity that must be left behind to progress through the Door at the bottom of the rabbit hole! *__-

But call them polytheist and they will tell you the 3 are one. So that means they are all one third of a God. And it's said they are equal but the bible disagrees.

1+1+1+1+1+1 + every apparent thing in existence, ever... +1+1+1.... = One!
(Spiritual math! *__- )

The 'trinity' is not the One unconditional Love that Jesus taught/demonstrated, it is a mental constructm wrung in dualism/vanity in order to feed Our vain 'beliefs'!
Love is not 'theory'!

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: namelesss

Dualism and Trinitarianism are finite, relative, and subjective aspects of the infinite and absolute existential unity: All Is One.

I think that is what I said.
Thank you for the simple reiteration! *__-

a reply to: namelesss


I don't mean to be rude but you speak in gibberish mostly. I think you are trying to hard. Stick to what is relevant and instead of quoting me and replying with nonsense just stick to what you understand.

And no, I don't want or need your interpretation, but you can post it for sure.

Your idea of interpretation is not what I consider (based on what you've said) accurate interpretation even in an open to interpretation scenario I just wouldn't be intellectually stimulated by anything you have to say.

But thanks.
I dig what you're saying but get the impression you think I need you to give me the "correct" interpretation.

I would enjoy hearing your interpretation as you have heard mine as long as you're not trying to tell me that you are right and I am wrong. I don't think that is what you are trying to do but it looks possible.

On duality, it is why the trinity is necessary. Balance. The Christians trinity is wanting in logic. It's only natural because it's a false doctrine.

The message of Jesus, had it not been polluted by Paul, would have been sufficient as a revision of monotheism. It simplifies the Law, condemns the evil one and gives man a fresh start.

It also made God the Father leaving open the option that he is different than Yahweh, who is the boss of Satan and author of evil.

But the pagans couldn't grasp monotheism( I guess) and to make Christianity a little more pagan the trinity was adopted.


Because nobody wants to worship the God of evil even if he is also good sometimes.

And you quote me a lot but your replies are kind of...off. I don't really see the point of them.

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
a reply to: namelesss
I don't mean to be rude but you speak in gibberish mostly.

That isn't rude at all; it is ignorant, though.
It tells me that you are completely unaware that ALL 'meaning' exists in the thoughts/imagination of the beholder!
I just typetty type symbols onto a monitor.
Some look at it and find no meaning, some find great meaning!
It is a matter of Perspective.
To interpret that for you, it means that the 'gibberish' is in you! *__-

"We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are!"

No one ever broke a rock and found anything that can be called; 'meaning' or 'gibberish'.
But, if what I say is gibberish, in there, then I am surely wasting my time to read or respond further.
Should I ever respond to a post of yours, do feel free to ignore me.
I do not answer posts merely for the entertainment of the poster.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

This is not the type of trinity Christianity has. You have Yahweh, (creator of good and evil) Son (power of God given to him but not equal to Yahweh who is his God also), and the Holy Spirit ( Spirit of God, purely the good). Now it can be confusing or it can make perfect sense, depending on you and how you look at it. I see Yahweh as the source of evil, Jesus as the source of good and the Spirit as the Most High. That's because I know how Yahweh was,how Jesus was and how Jesus put the Holy Spirit as the one who you can't be forgiven for blaspheming against. That's an honor that puts him above the Father. To me, the Holy Spirit is God.

You are still as confused as you were in your past posts and you still do not understand Christianity as James and the Apostles taught. I don't know which cult that you studied but it certainly is not that of the first Nazarene synagogue.

Jesus and Yahweh (Yahusha) are one and the same in spirit and are not two distinct entities of spirit. That is according to most all Christian bibles on the market today. Also according to the synagogue of James there is only One Holy Spirit and that is the Father El who is total Spirit. Now if you wish to create another Holy Spirit then you have two EL's claiming the same position. Do you truly understand Christianity?

a reply to: Seede

Yeah his a strange one Seede.

The trinity in my opinion is:

1. Monad. The All Father;
2. Barbelo. The 1st/Mother of Aeons, The Pleroma Holy Spirit;
3. Christ. Immanuel;, (or possibly Yeshua who was the son of Yahweh.)

And the Material world Trinity:

1. Yahweh. God of the Material Universe;
2. Lower Sophia. The Mother of Life and the Holy Spirit;
3. Yeshua. The deceiver of the deceiver;

But that's just one thought pattern from an Atheist Religious Scholar.

Coomba98