It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Comments on “Morals and Dogma”

page: 1
0

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 09:18 AM
link   
I started reading M&D about two or three weeks ago, and I've been taking it slow and trying to grasp each idea as I go along. I might read a paragraph 2 or 3 times to make sure I get the Idea that Pike is trying to get across before I move on. I am now in the Master chapter, and I'm noticing an interesting trend. As Pike is commenting on the State and what happens to a Republic when a small, base, immoral person or group of people take power, it sounds a lot like the status quo in the United States.

When he speaks of bribery with office instead of money, and appointing friends and family to positions of power to improve commercial relations; using unfounded and unrighteous war to crush those who oppose or compete with their interests (I'm paraphrasing), I am startlingly reminded of the current Administration (and some others from the past). As I read along (I'm on p.81 and it gets better with every page turned) I'm noticing a lot of similarities between what he describes as a "doomed" Republic and the good ol' U.S. of A.

I don't think it is any small coincidence when you take into account the kind of people we have in the majority of public offices in this country. We have a Presidential administration that goes about achieving its goals with trickery and lies, false accusations and propaganda. The government has used the promise of more freedom (from terrorism) to take away civil liberties. These are things that Pike warns are characteristic of a dying Republic. We have imposed our will as a Nation on our neighbors, and when that happens, Pike says, is when a Republic has doom written on the wall.

The anti-Masons say that the Masons are out to take over the country. Poppycock, I say. But IMHO, I wish they could have more of an influence, not over government, but I wish more men in this country (especially those who would hold office) tried to live by the standard set by Masons. In my opinion everyone would benefit from some of the very basic principles touched on in the first three chapters alone.

Thoughts? Comments?


[edit on 1/13/05 by The Axeman]



[edit on 18-1-2005 by pantha]




posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 03:45 PM
link   
Geez gang, why is it that every thread that has a subject line something along the lines of "Freemasonry exposed" or "Secrets of the Craft" or "The hidden agenda of Freemasonry" there ends up being 12,000 views and 8 pages of drivel spattered here and there with intelligent commentary, yet when I try to generate some discussion about this excellent book which is one of the most misquoted and misunderstood and most talked about on this forum - *crickets*

If I was trying to discuss Dean Koontz or Curious George I could see why I would get no replies in the Secret Societies forum, but this book is ABOUT FREEMASONRY. What's a guy gotta do to get some intelligent discussion about this book going? I don't want to debate with anyone, I just wanted to know if those of you who have read the book see the same correlations that I am seeing.




posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:33 PM
link   
Perhaps everyone has run out to Chapters and is now furiously thumbing through relevant sections. The book sounds fascinating...I'm going through Focaults Pendulum for the second reading right now, but I'll be looking for M&D to add to my collection.
Sorry to give you such a piddling response, but perhaps a 'bump' won't hurt.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:53 PM
link   
Axe Man, everyone does seem to go after the bad news as opposed to the good. Its like everyone wants to see where the fire truck went. Long as everything is running smooth nobody gives a hoot. I'm reading the book as well and like much of what Albert Pike has to say. Its been hard for me to sit down and read the whole thing strait through though. I have read two are three other books since I started Morals and Dogma.

Pike mentions a King in I think the 14th century who got to sample the first fruits of every bride in the town ahead of her own husband. Man I would have hated to live in those times.


I think its a very broad book with a lot of religious history and philosophy.


Hey I got my first degree Teusday, I stand before you a whole whopping Entered Aprentice.



posted on Jan, 17 2005 @ 03:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by TgSoe
Hey I got my first degree Teusday, I stand before you a whole whopping Entered Aprentice.



Congrats my friend! I am patiently waiting for my residence requirement to be over with. 6 months.

So what did you think? Do you feel like a new man after the initiation? That seems to be the trend.

I haven't read much further than when I first wrote this post, I have had so much going on what with the move and all. Still, I agree that it is hard sometimes to sit down and read it. I can't read too much at once. The way he wrote it's like I have to take it slow or I feel like I will miss something. Non fiction is always slower reading than fiction, though. Hell, I tore through "The DaVinci Code" and "Angels and Demons" in three nights each.


I was really hoping to get some commentary from the "heavy hitters" here, but oh well. No big deal. I'll just keep posting ideas and thoughts here and people are bound to get in on it. If they don't, well then I guess there will just be a big thread of me talking to myself. I do it all the time anyway! I think talking to yourself is OK; It's when you start answering yourself that you might be in trouble!



posted on Jan, 17 2005 @ 04:49 PM
link   
I didn't look to hard for any rituals on the web so as not to ruin the experience Axeman. My buddy built it up to be like fear factor or something worse but it was none of those things. It was definitely different though and I'm sure it gets better as you go. I met a lot of really nice people and look foward to getting my masters degree.



posted on Jan, 17 2005 @ 05:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by TgSoe
I didn't look to hard for any rituals on the web so as not to ruin the experience Axeman. My buddy built it up to be like fear factor or something worse but it was none of those things. It was definitely different though and I'm sure it gets better as you go. I met a lot of really nice people and look foward to getting my masters degree.



I'm the same way. I haven't looked at all, even when I have seen supposed rituals posted, I just scroll on down. I have no desire to see or hear the ritual until it is my time to see it properly, at initiation.

Fear Factor. As long as I don't have to eat any gross slugs or internal organs of pigs or something like that, I'm cool.



posted on Jan, 17 2005 @ 05:51 PM
link   
I'm not a Scottish Rite Mason so I suppose I shouldn't comment, but I have read most of M&D, but I couldn't make it through all. You have to be careful of Pike and keep him in context.

He was a Confederate general in the civil war on the Confederate side so even though he was a brother we have to recognize he had an axe to grind. You'll notice the nasty comments on the York Rite. Unless I'm mistaken the York Rite was the more popular of the Concordant bodies in his era, and it was only later (partly due to his influence) that the Scottish Rite grew in popularity.

You also have to keep in mind that there have been MANY advances in anthropology, psychology, and archaeology since his day and many of the things that he IS CONVINCED OF, and uses as proofs of his arguements, have been since disproven.

His writing style (as you have found I'm sure) is difficult by modern standards. It is flamboyant but at the same time (I found it) tedious. I found his rhetoric to be terrific but with no evidence of research or footnotes or bibliographies I'd hardly consider it anything but his own personal philosophy.

I might recommend to ANYONE interested in Masonry "The Craft and its Symbols" by Allen Roberts. It considers the symbolism of the Craft without getting TOO way out there, but at the same time keeps to the essential nature of things. Also, for anyone interested in joining it does NOT give away any of the SECRETS of the Craft.

An "Illuminating" read! IMHO.



posted on Jan, 17 2005 @ 06:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by davidg

He was a Confederate general in the civil war on the Confederate side so even though he was a brother we have to recognize he had an axe to grind.


I'm not quite sure what you meant by this. My great-great grandfather was a Confederate officer, and I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. What sort of "axe to grind" do you believe that Pike had? Pike says nothing in his book explicitly concerning the War Between The States except on p. 298:

The roar and the shriekings of Civil War are all around us: the land is pandemonium: man is again a Savage. The great armies roll along their hideous waves. and leave behind them smoking and depopulated deserts. The pillager is in every house, plucking even the morsel of bread of bread from the lips of the starving child. Gray hairs are dabbled in blood, and innocent girlhood shrieks in vain to Lust for mercy. Laws, Courts, Constitutions, Christianity, Mercy, Pity, disappear. God seems to have abdicated, and Moloch to reign in His stead; while Press and Pulpit alike exult at universal murder, and urge the extermination of the Conquered, by the sword and the flaming torch; and to plunder and murder entitles the human beasts of prey to the thanks of Christian Senates. ("Morals and Dogma", p. 298).

I do not see this as an axe to grind at all, but the simple record of what actually was occuring. Pike further writes:

Masonry is the great Peace Society of the world...War comes with its bloody hand into our very dwellings. It takes from ten thousand homes those who lived there in peace and comfort, held by the tender ties of family and kindred. It drags them away, to die untended, of fever or exposure, in infectious climes; or to be hacked, torn, and mangled in the fierce fight; to fall on the gory field, to rise no more, or to be borne away in awful agony to noisome and horrid hospitals...There is a skeleton in every house, a vacant chair at every table...The country is demoralized. The national mind is brought down, from the nobler interchange of kind offices with another people, to wrath and revenge, and base pride, and the habit of measuring brute strength, in battle.

Pike himself had served as a Captain in the US Army in the Mexican War, and a Confederate General in the Civil War. Knowing well the horrors of war firsthand, he continuously warns against them in his writings. Instead of being an axe to grind, it seems to me to be wise advice.


You'll notice the nasty comments on the York Rite. Unless I'm mistaken the York Rite was the more popular of the Concordant bodies in his era, and it was only later (partly due to his influence) that the Scottish Rite grew in popularity.


When Pike, Mackey, and other writers of their era speak of "York Rite", they are referring to the Blue Lodge only. At that time, the Chapter, Council, and Commandery were known as the American Rite. Pike himself belonged to all bodies, was a Past Master in his Lodge, had served as Grand High Priest of the Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of Arkansas, and was a founding member of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States. Pike's criticism of the York Rite was not the Rite itself, but what he perceived as inaccurate explanations of it. In his "Legenda", he wrote that it is incorrect for some to suggest that he undervalued Blue Masonry because of what he wrote in M&D; in fact, says Pike, if he did anything, it was actually that he overvalued it. It was the commonplace lectures of those degrees that he found unworthy of the symbolism.


His writing style (as you have found I'm sure) is difficult by modern standards.


I suppose this just comes down to personal opinion, and I would certainly agree that Pike's writings require much more thought than modern "pop history" books. But, at least to me, that's the whole point. And Pike is much less difficult than reading Kant or Hegel, both of which are required for freshman college students taking philosophy.


It is flamboyant but at the same time (I found it) tedious. I found his rhetoric to be terrific but with no evidence of research or footnotes or bibliographies I'd hardly consider it anything but his own personal philosophy.


Perhaps, but we should keep in mind what Morals and Dogma actually is. It wasn't meant to be just another Masonic book, with footnotes and a bibliography. The 32 chapters are actually the Lectures for the degrees of the Rite in the Southern Jurisdiction. Likewise, the York Rite Lectures are also lacking in footnotes and bibliographies.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 03:06 PM
link   
I have been super busy lately, so I haven't been able to get on ATS much at all.

Masonic Light, is there a book that has the York Rite lectures that can be purchased by outsiders? If so I would like to get my hands on a copy.

And thanks davidg for the suggestion, I will check it out. Good grief my "to read" list is growing exponentially... I'll have my nose in books for years on end at this rate. Not saying that's a bad thing!



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 03:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by Masonic Light

I'm not quite sure what you meant by this. My great-great grandfather was a Confederate officer, and I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. What sort of "axe to grind" do you believe that Pike had? Pike says nothing in his book explicitly concerning the War Between The States except on p. 298:


My feeling, and its just that, is that he was anti-north. He also seems anti-york rite, so that may not mean anything. I just meant that his view of Masonry may not be as inclusive as other, more recent writers is.

I have to admit that I haven't read Kant or Hegel. I was a history and english major in college and didn't see the need. I also have a tendency to distrust books without footnotes and bibliographies, but thats my "axe to grind".


What do you think that Pike would have thought about the SR as they are done now? Big classes, getting the 32nd after a weekend class? I think he might be apalled. Personally, that is one of the things that keeps me from the Scottish Rite. I wouldn't mind if it took me 5 to 10 years to get all the degrees, but to get some and have the rest "communicated" to you?



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 04:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by The Axeman
Masonic Light, is there a book that has the York Rite lectures that can be purchased by outsiders? If so I would like to get my hands on a copy.


The York Rite Lectures can only be given in full within a tiled Lodge, but there are many monitors available. Originally, Pike intended the Scottish Rite Lectures in Morals and Dogma to be secret too, then decided against it.

However, the portions of the York Rite Lectures that Pike criiticizes are quoted in Morals and Dogma.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 04:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by The Axeman
Good grief my "to read" list is growing exponentially... I'll have my nose in books for years on end at this rate. Not saying that's a bad thing!


With Masons doing just as much reading if not more, and posting on ATS it's a wonder how we manage to run the world... ooops. I shouldn't have said that.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 04:38 PM
link   
yeah with doing as much reading, writing and posting on ats and most importantly after meeting harmony drinking, its a wonder that we have time to take over the world lol.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 05:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by davidg

My feeling, and its just that, is that he was anti-north.


If you've never read them, I'd recommend Pike's "Letters To The Northern States" as well as Dr. Tresner's "Albert Pike: The Man Behind The Monument."

Pike was himself a northerner by birth, and was not anti-north. He also opposed secession, and tried to convince the Arkansas state legislature to remain in the Union. However, after the state seceded and Union forces began to invade Confederate territory, he was called upon to defend his home by the Confederate military leadership, and he did so. After the war was over, he moved to Washington D.C. to practice law.

Indeed, Pike may have had the last laugh: his business card advertized him as "Albert Pike, Attorney at Law: Specializing In Cases and Suits Against The United States Government."



I also have a tendency to distrust books without footnotes and bibliographies, but thats my "axe to grind"


I can certainly sympathize with that. My point was only that Morals and Dogma wasn't meant as a "book" per se, but as the collection of the degree lectures. As Pike mentions in the preface, about half of it is original; the other half is mostly compilations and ideas taken from Eliphas Levi, Plato, and several other poets, theologians, and philosophers. Because they were originally meant to be memorized by the officers and recited to the candidates as lectures, footnotes and bibliographies would have been superfluous. Just imagine that, after the First Degree has been conferred, the Lecturer would then give a list of footnotes to the Candidate!


What do you think that Pike would have thought about the SR as they are done now? Big classes, getting the 32nd after a weekend class? I think he might be apalled.


Pike himself went from the 4 to the 32 in about 5 minutes while sitting in Albert Mackey's study. Mackey simply had him take one cover obligation, and declared him a 32. At that time, this was how it was almost always done, and the actual rituals existed on paper only.

When Pike revised them, he intended that each should be conferred separately, but this never really happened. Even under the Pike administration, practically everyone made it to the 32 fairly quickly.


[edit on 18-1-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Pike himself went from the 4? to the 32? in about 5 minutes while sitting in Albert Mackey's study. Mackey simply had him take one cover obligation, and declared him a 32?. At that time, this was how it was almost always done, and the actual rituals existed on paper only.

When Pike revised them, he intended that each should be conferred separately, but this never really happened. Even under the Pike administration, practically everyone made it to the 32? fairly quickly.
[edit on 18-1-2005 by Masonic Light]


REALLY!?!?! I'd never heard that! I'll have to do more study, and I'll look up the books that you mentioned.

One of the reasons why Scottish Rite didn't attract me is that it seems to be done so quickly. Where is the effort? Even an EA and FC have to do "proficiency". I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't a similar situation in Chapter.

I HAVE read A Bridge to Light by Rex Richard Hutchens, and found it FAR more readable that M&D.

[edit on 19-1-2005 by davidg]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 06:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by davidg


I HAVE read A Bridge to Light by Rex Richard Hutchens, and found it FAR more readable that M&D.


That is a great book, and is now given to new Scottish Rite members in the Southern Jurisdiction, instead of "Morals and Dogma." Brother Hutchens' work is important because, in my opinion, it goes into great detail concerning the actual ritual, which is something that is missing in "Morals and Dogma."

Nevertheless, Dr. Hutchens quotes Pike at length in his book, and mentiones that his intent with "A Bridge To Light" is that it be used as an introduction to Pike's great work, instead of a substitute.



new topics

top topics



 
0

log in

join