PayPal Donation Form is Back: We could use a little love...

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

Also, you could start blocking features for NON-CONTRIBUTING members / non-members, e.g. only allow them access to a limited amount of posts in any thread, or just the first 2 lines of any post, etc. whilst (contributing) members get access to everything. Non-contributing members could simply BUY access to certain threads they'd like to read in full, for a few cents, you'd get access to all postings in a thread.

Not meaning to pile in on you, I think a lot of your points are fair, well thought out and certainly worth consideration BUT:

This idea of buying access to certain threads - are you sure? We all know how easy it is for threads to degenerate when members start bickering. Many threads start out well but by about page 3 or 4 they can go downhill very rapidly. Honestly, there'd have to be a money back guarantee

Change of subject: I've said before that I wouldn't mind big donors having a special forum but there'd need to be quite a lot of them for it to work well. I've participated in much smaller places than ATS and it's glaringly obvious that the more contributors there are, the livelier and more varied the discussions are.

It is very hard to ask for money for something that was once free. The only way not to seem over the top would be donations. The problem is not the asking, the people that donate or the people who do not. The problem is a group of people will always start some sort of class system of "I'm better than you" and it starts with "shut up and take my money". Then there will be the guilters who say "I'm broke but will get my money to you yesterday!". It rubs the people with morals and the ability to question the wrong way, they are the people who do not bend to social norms.

The other problem is a future one, one that the conspiracy minded will see right away. What happens when donations are expected via social pressure or a new set of rules and then what happens when it becomes a fee.

No one really wants to see ATS fail, some will pump out money to save it from failing and some will see money as the death knell but both want the same thing. That said, if ATS fails for either reason, another will pop up if there is enough interest, it will not be the same, but at least there will be a grace period where class system will not exist.

Edit: Also, instead of an exclusive forum, maybe for each dollar donated, you get stars of a different color that can be used anywhere and can be given multiple times to the same poster. Any one who asks for stars has all the stars from that thread changed to poop swirls. It would still be a class system, but it wouldn't wrestle as many jimmies.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: solids0be

I think the attitude of "show me your business finances" is atrocious, but hey I'm old fashioned maybe. Maybe you guys can all post your tax returns here.

Again, Don't donate, your moral problem is solved.

Well if I was running a business and out asking for donations (especially donations up to $2500) maybe I would post my tax returns when my customers inquired....but I never asked for tax returns just transparency on expenses to host the site...big difference. And I won't donate until I get transparency so yeah thanks.

originally posted by: BlueAjah
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Wow. Umm... are you actually suggesting a subscription site that requires payment?
shusshhh!

This OP is not asking for a fee or payment. It was just a - hey, if you can afford to help us out, we could use it.
If you don't want to, then don't.

How does a paid subscription site make anything better?
Some people would not be able to participate at all then, if they can't afford it.

ATS should always be free to all, period. It should also be open for financial contributions from appreciative members who can or want to donate. ATS should not have any pleas for donations or offer anything in return for donations.

ATS should offer structured levels of subscription based services for members that choose it.

It could include more upload options and storage, no ads ever, private messaging for only paid members, exclusive forums, the limited ability for a member to moderate their own threads, ban from thread only and delete posts, the ability for a member to ignore any other members. Unlimited window of time for editing their own posts... And maybe more stuff for higher level subscriptions?

Why not?

a reply to: solids0be

a reply to: solids0be


Really? If any of my customers asked to see my financials in return for their patronage, I would blacklist them in under 5 seconds.

Few business' do this, if you think most do, you do not function in the business world. If I was to float the business and do an IPO or sell the business I would then be expected to provide financials, certainly NOT for a bloody donation. Give me a break.

I will add this, there was a thread of ideas about 3 months ago and this idea was member generated......The people bleating have no intention of donating so stop trying to get behind the scenes, it's hilarious to see so many of you get your knickers in a knot over something you have no business trying desperately to sticky-beak into.

Again, Don't donate and the fiend moral outrage shall cease.

a reply to: argentus

Um ok thanks for defining what I would and wouldn't do. And I'm sorry if your blood pressure rises when people post their opinions. The fact that the other side of the fence is so up in arms when this comes up only raises more red flags. And do allude my line of thinking as purely a monetary thing for my own benefit, *snip* don't make this about members being to cheap when it comes to supporting their site, that's a slap in the face of people who want to donate but financially can't. ATS is a business, business is about making money I get it, but don't come at mesaying a transparent business model is akin to me being entitled. You might as well just say it, its none of my damn business let us make money and don't be jealous that we have a site that makes money.

Thanks to all that get it

a reply to: solids0be

You might as well just say it, its none of my damn business let us make money and don't be jealous that we have a site that makes money.

Perfect, I think you get it at last.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Well by the sheer outrage from your self an others about someone even having the gaul to ask if their donations are actually going to improve the site...seems like you guys are the ones with your "Knickers in Knots". God forbid we have discussions on forums anymore.

a reply to: solids0be

No need to put words in my mouth. I just want people who want to donate to do so. Those that don't shouldn't be castigating those that do. Not a difficult thing to understand.

Is it?

originally posted by: argentus
How do you know who contributes what?

Simply observing: there are a lot of people in here that write good posts, for free. They invest in ATS. Then you have moderators, whom invest their time here too, for free. That's how I know.

Moreover, the request is being put out to all members -- it wasn't in any way qualified.

You still keep refering to the request to donate, but I actually never said I was against it, it's up to the individual to decide if ATS needs a gift. Though I do think it's a bit weird that a business should ask for gifts, and if it does, it should also provide insights in why that is necessary. And saying "we need some love because february was very difficult for us because people block ads" is not really a convincing argument, sorry.

It seems like you want to put a monetary value on your contributions here,

I was not talking about my posts at all. I do agree that there are members here that write good, well-researched posts, keep their threads sound and polite (in as far as they have control over it) and yes, without their contributions, ATS would not be anything but an empty shell. So, given that, you might well say that they represent (monetary) value. In a truly capitalist world they would get payed for it by those that read it.

and that's your right, I suppose. Most of the rest of us seem happy to contribute to a place where we are welcome to do so. No need to complicate it further than than, imo. I like it here. Do you? Want to contribute? Yes? Cool. No? Also cool.

That's oversimplification again - surprising for a moderator of a site which motto is "deny ignorance". I'm not ignorant: sites like ATS that have - at least so they say themselves - roughly 300.000 members of which it's safe to say at least 10 percent will visit on a daily basis should generate a handsome amount of money just from ads. Even with a modest 1% CTR and a CPC of say $0.25, you would easily be able to make $100,000 a year from simple Google AdSense alone. Given you work with a broker (Crave) I guess you are quite good at targeting valuable ad markets, so your revenues are probably better. According to your stats, roughly 3000-4000 people write a post EVERY DAY, and it is safe to suppose the number of lurkers is even bigger. ATS is a gold mine, for sure.

And you're still avoiding the topic at hand: that dreaded 100 buck "donation" which pays us a seat in the forum that helps steer ATS into a succesful future. I feel that such a forum should be populated by talented people, not by somebody that happens to have 100 bucks at hand.

a reply to: solids0be

I am laughing at your outrage at not being permitted to view a private non listed companies financials.
No keep going, by all means

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Simple questions : Do you ask your customers to donate money to you?

How much have you donated (no questions asked) to ATS?

Because I am not sure why you are taking such a defensive stance here. Are you trying to become a moderator by showing undying loyalty? Or are the owners personal friends of yours?

I'd expect SO or Springer to take this stance (and rightly so) but why you?

Now here's my feeling about this whole situation. Yes, we can choose to donate or not donate so you keep telling us. But we were asked to do this little more than a year ago. Then came "Ad-gate" where the waters were tested for an ad-free subscription for ATS. Now we have another plea for donations. Where does it stop? Is ATS sinking?

I've subscibed to magazines that went out of business not long after and lost all my cash. I've helped people out with money to 'keep their heads above water' and then seen them unable to control their financial affairs because they wouldn't change their lifestyle until they had nothing left.

This is why I suspect many members are hesitant to 'donate' now. It feels like ATS can't sort itself out and if it all goes t*** up then what is the point of donating.

However if you want to chuck a £70 my way then I'll carry on writing threads here on ATS. All without showing you my tax returns of course.

a reply to: mirageman

Now you are asking me my financials cmon MM...you know better than that.

originally posted by: argentus
a reply to: solids0be

No need to put words in my mouth. I just want people who want to donate to do so. Those that don't shouldn't be castigating those that do. Not a difficult thing to understand.

Is it?

Well then be more careful when you decide to define someone in a post, because I'm far from being some "Entitled" jerk that's trying to "Spare a dollar or two". Also I never once castigated anyone for donating their money either so please don't accuse me of that, people can do what they wish with their money but I'm trying to be a beacon to bring certain questions to light that every member in my opinion should ask before opening their wallet and investing their hard earned money. Please don't vilify me for being vigilant.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: solids0be

Really? If any of my customers asked to see my financials in return for their patronage, I would blacklist them in under 5 seconds.

I guess you don't expect your customers to work for you AND pay you at the same time, do you?

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Well you can of course tailor your answers to avoid revealing that information. Or you can avoid answering all together. Which will it be?

Do you ask people for money to prop up your business with cash donations?

Do you want to be a moderator?

Are SO and Springer your mates?

Yes and No answers will suffice.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Hows about you may likely be one of customers...Does that irk you ?

And I don't need to tell you my business models. Members certainly are not working for ATS, you certainly aren't. If you think it's work, why bother coming here?

a reply to: mirageman

you don't think this is off topic?
OK if it makes you feel better:

Do you ask people for money to prop up your business with cash donations? No ones business but my own.

Do you want to be a moderator? No

Are SO and Springer your mates? No more than you or any other member.