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Asking the right questions

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posted on Apr, 14 2016 @ 08:07 AM
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a reply to: ch1n1t0

Hi well I read your post and I don't doubt you saw something but I will give a couple of examples.

I live not far from a claimed ufo hot spot which strangely only became that AFTER a small airport for light aircraft opened coincidence I think not.

If you look at many cases/videos/pictures on the net, youtube etc of lights over a city at night many turn out to be hoaxes, posted by the usual youtube suspects but what I always find strange is the people that report the sightings are always looking some distance to the object yet people closer to the objects in the towns/cities don't seem to report them is that because they see what they really are.




posted on Apr, 14 2016 @ 11:14 AM
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originally posted by: Rosinitiate
There is a certain level of woo, just enough to "control" who we are. Who or what that is, is beyond me.

Than there are those who embody those/that for the sake of furthering their control. Almost like a middle man.

There is a reason why the world's elite and secret societies in one form or another seek esoteric or occultist practices.

Think about this. The who's who of this planet doesn't go around worshiping aliens. They worship something else. ....just saying.


Of the 3 insiders I've had long conversations with, two of them over dinner, at my house or theirs,
All 3 have advanced degrees, and all 3 are lifelong mystics/occultists...

Funny thing that.

Kev



posted on Apr, 14 2016 @ 02:38 PM
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originally posted by: ch1n1t0
a reply to: jeep3r

I appreciate your input jeep3r. I agree with some of the points that you made, but I want to reflect on this particular sentence - "many aspects of the UFO phenomenon seem to be rather consistent with the notion of a civilization observing us at a distance". It's what they want you think, that it's from a distance. But, really, imo, if there's something further than hidden human tech behind UFOs, then the original culprits have been here all along
Ask yourself this, why does it have to be ET at all? Who said it was ET first? (me thinks the media, which is controlled by whom?) How much of our oceans have we explored?


Many scenarios are conceivable at this stage and they could indeed come from anywhere. But largely unexplored oceans don't exclude the possibility of an ET presence.

Getting back to your main idea: black projects, secret tech and related disinformation certainly contributed to the overall confusion regarding the public perception of UFO's, especially during the Cold War period. But IMO that's just a small part of a much bigger picture. Interestingly, the phenomenon didn't go away just by making sure that reported incidents will be met with ridicule and disgrace.

It's not an easy task to discredit hundreds and thousands of credible, high profile eyewitnesses reporting a similar phenomenon over decades and even centuries, not to mention data from radar tracking and simultaneous ground observations, trace evidence, altered radiation levels, EM effects and other features reported so frequently in countless UFO incidents.

Ultimately, I wouldn't take ET out of the equation just yet. Could we even fathom their technological capabilities if they were just a few hundred or even a thousand years ahead of us? And what about our own stealth technology (when thinking about a hidden mission and avoiding open contact for various good reasons, see previous post)? What would it be like in a thousand years, if we survive as a species?

Arthur C. Clarke once said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Perhaps he was onto something ...
edit on 14-4-2016 by jeep3r because: text



posted on Apr, 14 2016 @ 04:40 PM
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originally posted by: jeep3r

Ultimately, I wouldn't take ET out of the equation just yet. Could we even fathom their technological capabilities if they were just a few hundred or even a thousand years ahead of us? And what about our own stealth technology (when thinking about a hidden mission and avoiding open contact for various good reasons, see previous post)? What would it be like in a thousand years, if we survive as a species?

Arthur C. Clarke once said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Perhaps he was onto something ...


So if they are so far ahead why the need for lights at night, or being visible during the day, or landing strips ie the nazca lines a favourite theory about them on here.

Even if Drakes equation was partially correct the distances between possible civilizations & therefore time makes it highly unlikely anyone has passed by here.

As for accounts from the past LOOK how many mistaken accounts we get on here or in fact links to outright lies from hoaxers on the net do you honestly think lying is new thing for us, it's just more sophisticated than it used to be



posted on Apr, 14 2016 @ 05:05 PM
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a reply to: ch1n1t0


I'll say it bluntly - the question you ask is exactly what resonates in my head nowadays as well. Actually, if you put all the bulletpoints that I've listed in the OP together, you'd see that it is exactly what I'm pointing to, myself.


I am one of those people who believes that various "other" craft have crashed on the surface of the Earth. I think those crashed craft were scooped up by the various governments and then disinfo strategies were employed to cover up those facts. Just my opinion. Twenty-one years ago, my wife and me talked with some of the kin of eyewitnesses of the Socorro, NM crash (Roswell). We believed them. They didn't want any part of the limelight and I respect that. I only mention this -- not to try to establish any 'street cred', but to indicate when I really started to wonder about at least some of the [others] being TERRESTRIAL.

Crashed craft? They are thousands of years ahead of us, and they crash here? That always seemed like a disconnect to me. The Roswell crash is far from the only documented event involving a crashed "ET" craft. So, I think to myself, maybe they aren't so very advanced. Maybe they got a jump on the systems and displacements of energies that can move craft from here to there, but they aren't quite so superior as we have been lead to believe.

What if that was the great conspiracy? The various government agencies putting out disinfo that "they" are ETs, when all along it was known that they -- or at least some of them -- have been here long before humanity was sentient.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 06:54 AM
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OK, guys, lets do a semantics exercise.

Not all people claim that they have seen weird tech in the sky displaying odd behavior. Many people claim they have seen weird craft in the skies. All people are prone to error, even the best trained observers. Although all people are prone to error, this doesn't mean they will be erroneous in every account and situation. So in the end, some people, have witnessed something weird, deceptive and stealthy.

We end up with a pretty good semantic statistic that there are advanced silent craft in our skies.

We all know that every rule has exceptions, although rare. Now, if we were talking about a total of 10 UFO reports throughout history, then they could easily all be mis-identifications. But as reality points out, it's much more than that, and when a lot of the hearsay, crazy stories, mis-identifications, etc. are removed, there is a healthy percentage of sightings that don't occur every single day, in my opinion, but they still do occur. And these craft can perform things that our flying crafts can't really do (and I'm not talking about sharp turns or bone-wrecking speeds, necessarily, though in many cases they show such).

I have the desperate need to keep repeating this, but I'm NOT talking about ET.

For one thing, people will always look for patterns and see them, as well as explain them with their current understanding and knowledge of the world. That's why it's hard to take all pre-20th century alleged UFO accounts without a grain of salt and be considered evidence. Also, not only the world is not static, so is time. Meaning that whatever is happening now, doesn't necessarily mean it is absolutely the same as what happened, say, thousands of years ago, in terms of why's, how's and who's.

I think we can all agree that this subject is complex and multi-layered. Hence, my attempt to restrain myself and the topic here to a specific area. The area that is more commonly accepted as modern age of UFOs. Lets take out the cases of only lights in the distance. Lets all assume for a moment that since the 40s till present day, although in a flap manner, and although rare, there is a common story told by witnesses describing silent physical craft with ability to hover or fly and change direction quickly (yet, I'm not suggesting anything like MACH 10).

A good question is, should we aim for getting a common explanation, that would account for all alleged past cases of "demons", gods, demigods AND the current day UFO phenomenon. This is a good place to note that in my opinion, the grey phenomenon is one of the most successful media campaigns, orchestrated by people with a need-to-know, which is not to say that it is not real, rather than it seems to me quite deceptive. Still, by the laws of logic, I might be wrong, but if you ask the right questions and read some accounts you might share the same path.

Occultism - theory or practice : belief in or study of the action or influence of supernatural powers

Supernatural - departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature

And again, this is all, if we're aiming for a common identification of a number of phenomenon which might be the same culprits hidden behind differing understanding guided by humanity's . As previously noted in the thread, you can't shoot all ducks with one bullet, same goes for UFOs and their explanations. So, a good question is, should we be doing this, or should we take another approach.

Maybe we shouldn't be mixing stuff up, we have the supernatural, which is something out of reach and not yet well-understood (but is to be in the future), but then again, we have the modern day UFO phenomenon - saucers, triangles, chevrons. It might very well be a technology which is developed behind closed doors and is all human tech, all the woo around it was originally built up by the people in the know. Of course, this might be the case of most "flaps", yet, every few decades we might have had visitors get a sneak peek for a short while, which caused a lot of stir, say, 3-4 thousand years ago or ever since. So these are in different categories, I want to focus only on the present day part of the phenomenon, and not mutilations, crop circles, or abductions, as they seem to be quickly related with UFOs, but do sound like a comforting coloration of the UFO story and it might very well be just that, but I don't want to touch these here and now.

Honestly, I don't remember missing time or being abducted, or anything similar, it was a brutally surrealistic night, but still, we saw strange craft but don't recall shaking hands with anyone. So that's why my stance remains towards what I have experienced and I'm trying to build upon that. Also, I can't really say if these can fly at enormous speeds or not, many cases (radar ones) seem to point at that possibility, I just didn't see them doing it. What I know for sure is that the triangle we saw doesn't care about air resistance and aerodynamics, can fly completely silent and seems to be quite manoeuvrable, I don't know what speeds it is capable of, though. Also, I know for a fact that whatever the other lights were, as they were just that, they could hover, and more importantly - join together and split. I doubt agriculture planes would also fly during the night for 6 hours straight over a town and a fruitless (agriculturally) peaks of a mountain, or RC planes, too, silently at that (simply cause I've heard this one).

I know aliens can sound like a comforting solution for many, fitting their reality boxes, I was like that prior to my sighting and I know from this from first hand experience. Angels or demons, might be another one that might sound "terrifyingly" comforting. But both of these are stereotypical concepts, and many might hate on me, but I think humanity and the way we explain many things are pretty much wrong.

Of course, we've went a long way as a species and only a silly person would not care to respect that but altogether, nowadays our views ain't that clear and universal, so I'm not surprised UFO's are a hard thing to pin a needle on. They could very well be a very advanced species of octopus, dinosaurs or even seeders of life on Earth themselves, or debugging code for the virtual reality we inhabit. There are many options. But in the end, it seems they aren't all that infinite.

All in all, whatever we're dealing with, humans or something else, here's what I've drawn as conclusion:
* deceptive nature
* elusive
* hidden
* advanced
* controlling
* I don't believe it's a daily thing
* likes water
* seems more local to the planet, if we were to reach for a common aim throughout history, than alien.

Note to ponder upon - I think UFO's are closely related with the fear of death. Or the explanations that people reach to, after they witness such

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posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: ch1n1t0

We can't assume "craft". That's one of the first things that Jacques Vallee would say.
We also can't assume "angles and demons" or any specific "supernatural type" either.

That's actually how little we know about UAP (unidentified aerial phenomena).. many
of the best researchers are using that acronym now rather than UFO.

The very fact that pretty much ALL the disinformation sources push "craft" and "aliens"
down our throats, when there is not one iota of evidence for either, should be all
the evidence we need that neither term probably applies.

We've had the same strange sightings and "high strangeness" for thousands of years,
and just since WWII the mischaracterization of UFOs pushed heavily and repeatedly
by letter agencies.

I say that it's time to stop being played as fools.

Kev



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: ch1n1t0
I'm not going to be entertaining you with photos, youtube videos, or particular accounts. I want to tickle your brain and receive feedback in the following experiment.

UFOs are real, there's no question about it. The Who remains unanswered, however.



No, it doesn't. You have dozens and dozens of UFO reports associated with humanoid, non-human tripulants, many times these beings abduct humans against their will. This has been reported from at least 50 years (most likery before). The testimonial evidence and sometimes the physical evidence associated is overwhelming. You're just uninformed or choose to ignore the cases.

Of course many other UFO's reports are just regular civilian and military vehicles being mistaken, probable secret military projects and atmospheric phenomenons. And lately, CGI productions.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: corblimeyguvnor

originally posted by: ch1n1t0
UFOs are real, there's no question about it. The Who remains unanswered, however.


I'm sure they are, however, never seen anything I couldn't identify in the sky either day or night so must be looking at the ground too much. Who is probably humanity (black projects) rather than alien, who knows, one day i may be astounded with my own eyes rather than Hollywood and still think black projects

CbG


Many are black projects, many others are alien vehicles. One thing don't dismiss the other, there's plenty of evidence regarding the presence of unknown, fabulous technology and non-human humanoid beings.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: wmd_2008


Out there there has to be other life it's a numbers game but does Mog from Zog visit Earth I don't think so.


Oh but they do, despite what you 'think' about it. Why you choose to ignore the evidence that crearly points to very advanced and unknown technology used by non-human beings?



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: JackHill

But I do admit that there is some sort of an abduction phenomenon. Hell, there have been a few cases where people were left with physical marks after a so-called abduction experience and the marks really had weird features, although the very few cases that hold most merit in my eyes have nothing to do with abductions but with a close-up with the craft AND physical marks.

With that said, Stan Friedman does his homework and is a very clever person, among one of the best investigators, in the way he really does the research, but has been biased. Or even led towards this way. Although I don't reject such events ultimately (though if there is a reality to the abduction phenomenon, I'd say it's super rare). I dare say I'm well-educated on the UFO phenomenon because the questions that I've reached obviously are not well-resonating with the ET hypothesis, though it don't really state that ETs are not visiting. I'm just saying there's no evidence it's ET that's regularly here, which doesn't mean ET never ever visited. It's a possibility and there's no way of knowing.

Keep in mind, people get bitten by spiders and have a bad dream and they say they've seen grey aliens. To be honest, when I was 5, I saw something in my bedroom, but I figure that's the media and brainwashing combined with night terror.

Also, my wife works with animating kids from 3 to 15 yrs old. She has a game where she asks them to name 3 things which are triangular. The most common answers are "a slice of pizza", "house ceiling" and "the Illuminati"

I'm not a person who's afraid of going overboard, when it's necessary. I've been on the fringe side for a long time, I've explored possibilities many haven't. And am still doing this. That's why I don't think it's the aliens everyone's been shoving down our throats. Thing is, especially since I saw physical craft that I'm attempting to discuss, I may jump on a theory, but usually happen to tear it down by using logic and reading the work of people in the likes of Vallee and Hynek. And I even partially disagree with their final notions of the phenomenon, they seem to give it an aetheric feeling as if it's ghosts. I tend to agree there's a lot happening between the observer and "high strangeness" in these rare events, I'm trying to not go overboard nowadays and include the few cases of pure weirdness . (Colares, Brazil).

Thing is, if you believe the grey alien abduction and take it without a grain of salt, I'd say you probably watched too much cable during the 90s. As I previously mentioned, there is an "abduction" phenomenon of sorts, but no one's to say who really stays behind these alleged visuals of little grey man.

For all we know, the abduction phenomenon (and greys) could be psy/black ops, going hand to hand with the massive brainwashing (media and TV sprouting aliens all the time). People need to learn they can't trust themselves fully even in perfect crystal clear condition of the self and the mind. Let alone in situations of high weirdness.

I couldn't help but noticed that you tended to go a bit aggressively at my OP which is absolutely OK but I have to ask.. did you read past the sentence you bolded? A few lines below it I make a clear list of what could be behind the UFO phenomenon in totality. ET is on there too. But it doesn't fall into the sub-category of the UFO phenomenon I'm trying to distinguish from the rest. If I had to go with speculative numbers, I'd say that in modern history Earth has been visited once by ET. And probably a few times altogether in the history of man.

I'll put it as short as possible, as it's the third time I'm doing this - I'm interested in the technological craft, not the high strangeness. I don't necessarily link triangles and saucers with abductions, and don't claim that no such abduction phenomenon exists. I just think that a lot of different things are mixed in a bowl, and I'm trying to differentiate. I'd appreciate your input, in case you decide to let go of your already built up fortress of "truth" and come speculate with me.

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One last thing, if you have an enormous black budget (you're literally printing the money that you need while normal people are paying for it) would it be that much of an inconvenience to build a strong dis and mis informational plan? Which would go into a spiral and down, towards the rabbit hole you go. But again, I think there's something more to the technological UAPs.
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posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 10:16 AM
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originally posted by: JackHill

Oh but they do, despite what you 'think' about it. Why you choose to ignore the evidence that crearly points to very advanced and unknown technology used by non-human beings?


The question is - WHAT IS NON-HUMAN?!



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: ch1n1t0

The thing that really struck me about my BBT sighting is that I could clearly see all these "rivets" on it. (when it was in triangle form). Rivets. Even when it was near the far horizon.

I can tell you, I've not once seen rivets on 747s flying overhead. Not even when walking up to one on a runway.

So...I Don't know what theory could make sense other than the image was places in my mind...unless you want to throw some xdim or quantum card at it...But those are just other words for "magic" when used in such a context.

Now I *am* fascinated by ATS member "vet" claiming he saw the exact same "base craft" sans the high strangeness.

Kev



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 10:50 AM
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In Medieval times, most part of people's understanding of the world came from religions, when they saw something out of place, they'd say demons or angels. Nowadays most of the Western world is semi-aware of space, and even more aware of a possible alien presence, which, by terms of fitting our worldviews, came to ETs. I read a post once here. It said that ETs are the new religion. It nails it. Also, we have the concepts of AI and time travel, multiple dimensions, etc. Our knowledge grows, and so do the options. But for one, I know there is weird craft flying even in this day and age that show some pretty impressive capabilities and features.

Of course, there is most probably life out there in the Universe. Of course, it's more than possible that some of it has visited Earth. But to link the UFO phenomenon with these is bold and a bit silly, due to a number of things that I've stated throughout the thread.

Maybe it's a good idea to present a hypothesis here - if we disregard some of the high strangeness cases and focus only on physical silent hovering modular aircraft there are two major and one minor options in my mind - it's either fully terrestrial tech and it has all been kept secret thanks to the massive disinformation campaign, or it's a mixture between terrestrial tech and tech from another non-human intelligence. But I'm most certain, it's not from the stars, or even if it was, well, it's considered more native to this planet than us, because it's been here long before we have.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 10:55 AM
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originally posted by: ch1n1t0

originally posted by: JackHill

Oh but they do, despite what you 'think' about it. Why you choose to ignore the evidence that crearly points to very advanced and unknown technology used by non-human beings?


The question is - WHAT IS NON-HUMAN?!


Well non-human sentient beings, that is. Sentient beings, that don't belong to our civilization and that operate more advanced technology that we do. Their origin is unknown. Some of their operations seem to involve a very-well focused agenda.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 11:03 AM
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a reply to: ch1n1t0

I'm the one who posted here about UFOs being the new religion.

What baffles me is why you insist there are physical craft.

Two people can stand shoulder to shoulder. One reaches out their hand to touch the "physical craft" while the other sees nothing or something completely different.

There are multiple documented cases of this.

Why the obsession with physical craft?

Kev



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 11:04 AM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

That's a particularly interesting detail that you're mentioning. It really sounds mind-boggling. Rivets... Or this might have been your closest interpretation of what you were really seeing.

Heck, I'm even open to sneak peeks into a parallel reality, alternative time-line of history of Earth or interdimensional, time-bending being an explanation. But I just don't find them as likely.

Do you have this information on ATS here in the form of a thread, I could look at? I'm interested in knowing: exact date and time, place of the sighting, too, duration and number of witnesses. Only if you wish to, of course. Very interesting indeed and weird in regards to the rivets. Our small triangle seemed to be absolutely smooth for the few seconds it appeared in between us and the nearby town lights. Maybe it's true that the big black chevrons consist of the small triangles and are modular. But them using rivets for when being joined together. Sounds like Bioshock to me.

And could you link me to this ATS vet member's thread or particular post, please?



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 11:06 AM
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originally posted by: ch1n1t0

Thing is, if you believe the grey alien abduction and take it without a grain of salt, I'd say you probably watched too much cable during the 90s. As I previously mentioned, there is an "abduction" phenomenon of sorts, but no one's to say who really stays behind these alleged visuals of little grey man.

For all we know, the abduction phenomenon (and greys) could be psy/black ops, going hand to hand with the massive brainwashing (media and TV sprouting aliens all the time). People need to learn they can't trust themselves fully even in perfect crystal clear condition of the self and the mind. Let alone in situations of high weirdness.



I don't 'believe' in the 'grey alien abduction', it's where the evidence clearly points: non-human humanoid beings are able to immobilize humans at distance, transport them even thorugh physical objects like walls, perform reproductive/psychological operations on the subjects, return them to their origin point and 'bury' the memories of the event.

Please explain how an international black ops operation have been carried on since at least 50 years with technology that no onse seems to posses even today, and convince every single time the subjects that the people doing it are actually 'grey little aliens' / 'hybrid-like' aliens.

Massive TV brainwashing? In a time, for instance, where the subject was a complete taboo and almost completely unknown, but for some reason, people living in completely different places that never meet eachother described practically the same events over and over again, worried about what happened to them, because, they watched some movie?

Both scenarios (black ops / media brainwashing) are simply insufficient explanations.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Kudos on the religion bit! We're in the same boat. The obsession comes from my belief that what we saw was physical, judging by the triangle that we saw, as well as the fact that it was seen numerous times throughout 2009, 2010 and 2011 by a few hundred people in the area, just from a further distance than our experience was. I agree there might be cases where people might not see something that the other person sees. I'd refer to that as a high strangeness incident, though.

In the end, I get to the place where if I had to be honest, I'm not looking for all the answers for all the questions and cases of UFOs. I'm looking for an explanation of our own experience as it is the one and only experience that has become a respectful part of my life and way of thinking.



posted on Apr, 15 2016 @ 11:13 AM
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What about humans pretending to be "aliens" to obscure/confuse/hide advanced experimental technologies?

We know that the intelligence community often has, and continues to collaborate with Hollywood and the mainstream media. The events in Ben Affleck's movie "Argo" are a pretty blatant example of that. If the people involved in the cover up introduce a hefty dose of "alien" documentaries, movies, and books into the mainstream culture -- it would most certainly aid in hiding anything outside of "normal" technologies people are aware of.

What an awesome job that would be! Imagine being tasked with collaborating with the entertainment industry to push aliens, UFO's, and science fiction?

On the other hand, it all could be a psychological project to mentally prepare humanity for the eventuality of discovering intelligent alien life. Perhaps in time it will be a foregone conclusion that such beings must exist, so when the "news" is reported, people will simply shrug their shoulders and say, "I thought we already knew they existed?"




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