What is The one true Faith?, page 3
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reply posted on 13-1-2005 @ 02:01 PM by saint4God
Originally posted by thelibra
Now I just want to be clear on this, because I want to make sure I read it right... Are you saying that if a loaded gun were in your hand, and you found a man who had broken into your house, and was brutally raping your daughter or wife, that you wouldn't shoot him? Instead, you would turn the other cheek?


I would try to protect my family by getting in the way. I would try to get him conscious and talking. Who knows, if I completely lose it I may try to knock him out. I hope to God however, I would not shoot him.

Originally posted by thelibra
I could never do that. The man who would violate my family so would be lucky to only find himself dead, and I consider myself to be a limited pacifist of rational mind.


There have been cases of abuse in a few instances in my family. Without going into specifics, my first reaction was anger...hatred...the want to kill them. I took a moment to think about this each time it happened. Love your enemies is a very tough pill to swallow, but you grow from it and understand it. Yes, do everything you can to remove those you love from this situation. No, don't kill the prepetrator. For as long as a person lives, they have the ability to change. It's rare, but supposing you did kill someone before they had that opportunity. Now what good have you done? As those on here shout "don't judge people!", what then gives any individual the right to be judge, jury and executioner?

Originally posted by thelibra
I just got a pile of extra work at the office, so the rest of my answers will have to br brief, but I'll try my best.


I'm with ya.

Originally posted by thelibra
Any law enforcement or lawyer will tell you this is the most effective method of avoiding lawsuit later on, and to prevent retribution by the person who was shot. Disabling them, on the other hand, allows them to sue you (usually successfully), and to enact revenge later on. The #1 rule of thumb is that if you have an invader in your house, shoot to kill, and only shoot once if you hit. Anything else will result in jail time.


I agree that our legal is broken in some places. When it comes to law of 80 years and law of eternity, guess which I choose.

Originally posted by thelibra
On the contrary, I keep a baseball bat by my bed, swords on the wall, and a several knives around the house. Anyone who breaks into my domain thinking to find a victim will find themselves instead victim to any number of lethal attacks.


Here we go with lethal again. For those keeping scrabble score, that's a synonym for deadly. I should've explained the boat-load arsenal I have. The bladed edge is my spouse's. I'm still undecided whether I would keep one....not sure I trust myself to pull back in heated situations such as the one we're discussing here. The rest are practice weapons for Kung-Fu.

Originally posted by thelibra
What I was saying though, is that a gun is the most effective method of stopping an intruder dead in his tracks.


Dead Jim....dead dead. Sounds like the pioneers back in the day who shot Native Americans for not understanding property lines. "Those savages!". The people who burglarize your house, do they want you? Not unless you personally did something to piss them off and that's a whole other issue. Give them the junk, the money and let them go along their merry way. If you have nothing left of value, why would they come back?

Originally posted by thelibra
Well, according to the Bible, even using a gun is fine. Christians never played nice in times of war. When violence was called for, they fought with all the fury and vengeance that their God could summon.


So ah, God summoned you to have a fire-arm? I seem to remember something about "those who live by the sword will die by the sword."

Originally posted by thelibra
I'd quote any number of passages, but as I mentioned, I need to go soon, and get to working on my assignments.


It's cool. Whenever you have time.

Originally posted by thelibra
Once you let the firearm do the thinking for you, you've become no better than the intruder.


Interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of that before.

Originally posted by thelibra
Always keep the mentality that your ammo is precious, and that you only have one shot, and to make that shot count, and perhaps it will stay your finger enough seconds to get a better view of the situation.


Reminds me of when my father said when I was little. He said, "If you point a gun at somebody, you better be ready to kill them." I looked at my toy gun hoping somebody wouldn't make that mistake when I was running through their backyard at night. Hey, back in they day they weren't bright orange.

Originally posted by thelibra
Back when I was a Christian, a minister gave a sermon on following God's plan. He opened it with the following joke:


I love that joke and tell it myself ! Trust in God but lock your car door? I follow the point but only in a defensive stance, never offensive.

Originally posted by thelibra
Admittedly, I do gain quite a bit of inner peace by trusting in providence. However, I am also of the belief that God helps those who help themselves. If I cannot make rent one month, due to lack of enough money, I do not say "God will pay my rent". I get up, find a second job, or odd jobs, work with the landlord, or pawn something until I can make rent. God gave us free will for a reason.


Awesome. Overcome adversity with God's help.

Originally posted by thelibra
It is my belief that "the hand of God" is almost never used, but rather God acts in subtle motions, such as a rowboat during a flood, or a loaded gun within easy reach when one is being robbed. Does allowing the robber to violate my home further God's plan any more than shooting him dead? Perhaps God put him in my home, knowing I would shoot the intruder, because later that intruder would decide to slaughter a busload of children.


Sounds like rationalizing to get your way frankly. If I were unarmed and an intruder were to come into my home God would know it long before I would and would stop it if he chose to do so. Even still, you think he'd 'teach me a lesson' that's against his commandment in both the Old and New Testament? *Booming voice* "saint4, it's your fault those school children died. You're responsible for their deaths because you didn't have your sidearm cocked and ready. Shame on you." Hm....well, I'll be sure to let you know if this happens and come here to publicly apologize.

Originally posted by thelibra
Possessions are much more than just an X-Box, or a set of collectable plates. Possessions include your home, which shelters your family. Various heirlooms, which tie the past to the present in a physical way. Wedding rings, engagement rings, memories of places or events we may never see again. Appliances with which we can prepare food to feed our families, books, tapes, DVDs with which to teach them. The computer, which may contain years worth of stories one has written, or all the family accounts with the funds with which we use to provide for them.


Stuff stuff stuff. It's all garbage. I know, I have all that garbage too. If we invested a quarter of what we have (time, money, etc.) into people, we'd be a hundred times richer for it!

Originally posted by thelibra
There is nothing in the Bible that says one should not defend their home.


There's nothing saying you should. How often did Jesus defend his house?

Originally posted by thelibra
The exact context of turn the other cheek is in reference to threats or attacks which do not violate our intrinsic right to life, or to provide for our family. For instance, you shouldn't shoot someone for calling you a name, and it's best not to stoop to their level. It does not mean, IMO, that one should sit idly by and allow some lawless bastage to violate you.


I know where you're coming from in that I have the same feelings. It's a tough battle and unfortunately I've brought you into the war I'm having with myself on the issue.

Originally posted by thelibra
I believe that there was once a man named Jesus, who was so convinced that he was the Son of God that he got others to believe it as well. Beyond that, I pretend to know nothing. Perhaps he was the Son of God, and perhaps he was just a very confused young man in the wrong place at the wrong time, thus I cannot debate if he was the Son. However, I can debate as to whether or not Jesus is the only way to achieve the "happy ending" after our life ends.


Alright, how about what he had to say on all other things?

You've got great reasoning which is why I'm totally into this discussion and ask all the questions. Who knows, maybe you'll be changing my mind on a few things.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by saint4God]


reply posted on 13-1-2005 @ 07:17 PM by thelibra
Well, I'm back home now, and my fiance is having a girl's night with her friends, so I've got a long while I can devote to this post.

Originally posted by saint4God
I would try to protect my family by getting in the way. I would try to get him conscious and talking. Who knows, if I completely lose it I may try to knock him out. I hope to God however, I would not shoot him.


Okay, so it's not so much that you wouldn't intervene, but rather you would opt to use nonlethal force to intercept the intruder. In a situation this severe, I personally would opt to use lethal force as a first resort, even were I a Christian, for two reasons:


  • The one being raped would have permanent closure. It may still take time for the mental and physical scars to heal, but they need never again fear that the rapist would come after them again.
  • God would forgive me, IMO. Even as a Christian, there are a myriad of ways of obtaining forgiveness. Everything from simply praying and asking for it, to getting baptized again, to going to confession and doing penance. My spiritual beliefs are not quite as simple as simply asking for it. I would then have to find a way to balance it out. Perhaps by saving a life. But that would be for my own edification. God, as a being, understands on a far deeper level than I can ever imagine. If God could forgive a man who lived his entire life as a murderous villanous scumbag that did horrible things, he could forgive a man who lived most of his life as a good person, and once slipped into wrath, and genuinely sought forgiveness.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    There have been cases of abuse in a few instances in my family. Without going into specifics, my first reaction was anger...hatred...the want to kill them. I took a moment to think about this each time it happened.


    Ditto. I got to receive the physical sort quite a bit, but my sister got worse than I did, and my brother received the absolute worst. I actually got to watch, one Christmas, as my mother pushed my brother down the stairs, after beating him, and when he lay at the bottom, his ankle twisted horribly from a breakage, she flew down the stairs, grabbed him by the hair, and proceded to slam his face repeatedly into a brick wall seperating the kitchen from the den. I was probably six or seven at the time.

    One may ask, how could I ever love people like that? The long and short of it is, I didn't... for nearly two decades. Then, in my mid-20's my father realized he had no children left, only offspring. He began to try and be my father, a father I'd never had before. At first I refused, and it was only with time, earned trust, and proving he'd changed, that I slowly came around. Eventually my mom reached the same state of mind. I can forgive them now, because I know they've changed, that they genuinely regret the past, and want to be good people. Now, almost 30, I share a healthy relationship with my parents, and have learned from the past on what not to do, and to a degree, what to do right, when I have children.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    For as long as a person lives, they have the ability to change. It's rare, but supposing you did kill someone before they had that opportunity. Now what good have you done?


    While I am in agreeance on this (as is evident from my previous story), there are certain boundaries I don't care about whether the person had the opportunity to change. One of which is rape, the other is child molestation. I'd shoot my own parents, fiance, or best friend dead if I ever caught them in either of those two acts and had the opportunity to. Because while there is a slim chance that they will change, there is a far greater chance that they will use their newfound lease on life to repeatedly commit the same acts. As for the good I would have done, I will have spared as many innocents from a life-shattering event as the animal would have ruined had they been left alive. If that number were zero, then I have spared no one, and I would be tormented for the rest of my life asking myself if that were the case...

    So why do it? Because if even one more life were shattered as a result of my letting the perpetrator get away with it, the torment would be a million-fold worse. Say you allowed the rapist a new lease on life, to ask forgiveness and turn their life around, and with it they ran off and raped three more women. Ten more? Fifty more? Maybe they even degenerated into slaughtering them afterward. Say this man decided to have another go at your wife, and succeeded. How could one possibly live with themselves, knowing the man who raped their wife, given a second chance to mend their ways, did it again?

    Originally posted by saint4God
    As those on here shout "don't judge people!", what then gives any individual the right to be judge, jury and executioner?


    By the same token, what gave the perpetrator the authority that gave the perpetrator the right to rape/molest an innocent victim? Or take it down a notch...what gives the wolf the right to kill and devour a chicken? What gives a black-widow spider the right to bite a child?

    But those are animals! Animals can't be held accountable for murder, can they? Yes. A she-bear will defend her cubs against intruders, a parent will squish the spider, and the city will put down a rabid dog. Is it then a matter of right and wrong? No. The offending animal is killed, just as would be the case with the interloper.

    I direct you to John Locke's     Social Contract which in essence states that, mankind is born an animal, with the innate ability, or License, to do whatever he desires. He may steal, rape, pillage, murder, and befoul all that surrounds him. However, society begins when more than one person comes together and agrees that, in exchange for their license, that they will agree to some basic precepts set forth, such as not killing one another, and bonding together for protection against those who would execute their own license against them. When one surrenders the Social Contract in exchange for the License, they have stepped outside of society and become no better than animals.

    Thus, I would rate killing a man who stepped too far back into License on the same level as I would putting down a rabid dog.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    I agree that our legal is broken in some places. When it comes to law of 80 years and law of eternity, guess which I choose.


    As I will later answer in this post, there are numerous places in the Bible where killing an intruder, for far less severe reasons, is justly advocated by God. It is equally advocated in a number of other religious texts as well. But let us examine your first sentance: that the law is broken in some places. Of this I must disagree.

    I have spent over 90% of my life in Texas. I was born here, as was most of my family. (and for the record, most of us can't stand Bush, but that's another discussion altogether). Anyway, Texas is a harsh land. In times past, it made todays harshness look like a day at the park.

    An excerpt from an article for E2 I once wrote, entitled Texas Mentality:

    "Regardless of one's personal views, in Texas, the Death Penalty is (or at least, was) justified. Texas breeds some of the toughest, meanest, hardest to kill bastards in the entire world. We grew from a land which has every natural and unnatural disaster except for Volcanoes and Earthquakes. 3 of the 4 native poisonous snakes in the US are indigenous to Texas. Heat waves literally kill people by baking them to death in 110+ degree heat. Hurricanes plague south Texas yearly. Tornadoes rip through the whole state. Lightning storms that leave blasted trails a mile wide are common. (I laughed when the one pathetic bolt of lightning I saw in Seattle made the front page). Combine that with Black Widow Spiders and Brown Recluse Spiders, mockingbirds that attack on site, killer bees, wildfire, drought, flood, ice storms that break mighty oaks in twain... you get the idea. And that's just the stuff that mother nature cooked up. It doesn't take into account things like pollution, violence, insane rednecks, Texas Drivers, road rage, and shotguns. What this means is that if someone is strong enough to live through all that they are not only tough, but afraid of nothing and if they are bad enough to deserve the death penalty, then like a rabid dog, the only thing you can do is to put them down. Rehabilitation, the fear of God, or even some sort of inner revalation is not going to divert them in the future, because they lived through Texas.

    "It is a little known fact that the Texas Constitution had an amendment nicknamed the "He needed killin'" clause. I kid you not. You see, Texas IS the border between Mexico and the US. Meaning that the most hardened convicts from both countries cross through here, trying to escape the federal authorities. If these menaces got away, they'd just come back across whichever border again to prey upon the weak once more. Most of them would hide out in Texas. People would -know- about a criminal, know it was him, what he did, but all the witnesses would be dead, or the evidence had been destroyed. But the town knew it was someone, without a doubt. So they let vigilante justice prevail in times when the authorities could not enforce the law. Keep in mind that even to this day there are areas of hundreds of square miles that only have one officer patrolling."

    While the article itself is a tad tongue-in-cheek, it helps to illustrate where I'm coming from. Texas is one of the few states where you still have a chance at getting away, legally, with shooting dead and intruder in your own home. And there's valid reasons for it to this day.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Dead Jim....dead dead. Sounds like the pioneers back in the day who shot Native Americans for not understanding property lines. "Those savages!".


    Having descended from the Sac & Fox Tribe, I have my own beef with what happened to the Native Americans back in the day. But there is a big difference between a degenerate scumbag who rapes or molests, and a man who simply doesn't understand an imaginary line in the soil when his ancestors have, for generations, walked it relatively unchallenged.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    The people who burglarize your house, do they want you? Not unless you personally did something to piss them off and that's a whole other issue. Give them the junk, the money and let them go along their merry way. If you have nothing left of value, why would they come back?


    Again though, I should stress that my "shoot to kill" mentality really only applies to a few very specific crimes. Aside from the two I've previously mentioned, the only other one I could think of is in self-defense or defense of a ward (someone I was obligated to protect). In the case of strictly robbery, and nothing more, I would have to gauge the situation based upon the placement, events, and people involved. If I felt a thread to life were imminant, one of us would soon learn, in a very final way, what the True Faith really was. If it were a matter of a smash and grab, I'd probably just wait and collect on the insurance, or scare them off.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    So ah, God summoned you to have a fire-arm? I seem to remember something about "those who live by the sword will die by the sword."


    No, Smith & Wesson did (wink). But more seriously, there is a big difference between "exacting lethal force in an isolated situation that calls for it" and "living by the sword."

    One might quite reasonably assume that from my series of posts, that I am a gun-toting redneck just itchin' to find someone to shoot. Nothing could be further from the truth. As previously mentioned, I am a limited pacifist. Meaning that I walk away from fights that need not happen. If someone calls me a name in a bar, my reaction might be to smile, raise my glass, toast them, and drink. If someone shoves me against a wall as they walk by, I take it as a hint that I need to work out more. If I get into a heated debate on a topic, I try as best I can to keep it from becoming personal, though sometimes I fail miserably at that.

    But if someone actively seeks to threaten my life, or the life of a ward, or the existance of my country, then I will put my own life in front of them and hold absolutely nothing back. Thus, if America were invaded, I'd volunteer to join the armed forces immediately. If, however, it was a war overseas, in a country that had never launched an attack against us, I would support our troops from afar, and curse our leaders from up close.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Originally posted by thelibra
    I'd quote any number of passages, but as I mentioned, I need to go soon, and get to working on my assignments.


    It's cool. Whenever you have time.


    As promised, then, the passages I alluded to, from The Bible.


    • Genesis 9:5-6 - God demands blood for blood.
      "5 For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man's brother I will require the life of man. 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image."

    • Exodus 21:12-25 - God laws down the law
      "12 "Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him treacherously, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die. 15 "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death. 16 "Whoever steals a man, whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to death. 17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death. 18 "When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but keeps his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks abroad with his staff, he that struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed. 20 "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money. 22 "When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

    • 1 Samuel 17:45-49 - David slays Goliath.
      "45 Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head; and I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, 47 and that all this assembly may know that the LORD saves not with sword and spear; for the battle is the LORD'S and he will give you into our hand." 48 When the Philistine arose and came and drew near to meet David, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine. 49 And David put his hand in his bag and took out a stone, and slung it, and struck the Philistine on his forehead; the stone sank into his forehead, and he fell on his face to the ground."

    • Romans 13 - Legally Exacting Death
      "1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer."


    There are numerous other passages I could quote from, but it would require reading the Bible in it's entirety again to find ones that are not taken out of context, and I don't quite have that much time before my fiance returns home.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Originally posted by thelibra
    Does allowing the robber to violate my home further God's plan any more than shooting him dead? Perhaps God put him in my home, knowing I would shoot the intruder, because later that intruder would decide to slaughter a busload of children.


    Sounds like rationalizing to get your way frankly.


    I can see how it would, but my meaning was that one cannot pick and choose what is and is not within God's Plan. If I act merciful towards a man, I can no more claim it was part of God's Plan than I can if I were to commit a heinous act of villainy. God's Plan includes peace and violence on such an immeasurably complex scale that we can never hope to fully comprehend it, perhaps not even after death. Take for instance the story of Job. He allows this man to be utterly broken by having his wealth, health, and loved ones torn away from him in the worst ways possible, just to satisfy a bet with Satan. For what? To be able to have bragging rights on how devout a follower was? He instructs a Abraham to take his son to the top of a mountain and sacrifice him. For what? A test of faith? Yet Christians trust in God's Plan every single day, and feel that there must be some sort of justification, beyond knowing that God has it all worked out in the end, and that everything that happens, happens for a reason.

    Well, it can't happen both ways. You cannot say that God's Plan only involves mercy, love, and harmony, because there's an entire book, and history of a world that shows this is not the case. There is even the possibility, as shown by St. Anselm, that not even God knows exactly every little detail that will happen within the Plan, but rather, what the end result will be.

    Thus, killing violating intruder may possibly have just as much place within God's Plan as being merciful towards him. Or, it is possible that the entire incident is of no consequence to the plan whatsoever, that it is merely a detail that came about in the culmination of The Plan.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    If I were unarmed and an intruder were to come into my home God would know it long before I would and would stop it if he chose to do so.


    I am in full agreeance of that statement, but it is still no reason not to defend your home. If one were to live strictly on the assumption that God would always provide for every need, he would soon be hungry, penniless, and friendless. After all, if he provided for Elijah in the field (1 Kings 17:4), then why bother holding a job? Why bother trying to provide for your family? If God wanted them to survive bad enough, he'd supply the food, wouldn't he?

    Perhaps.

    Or perhaps God would say "Here is a man who has no interest in taking care of what I have provided him, including his life," and focus his attention elsewhere. Just as God has given me the means with which to earn a living, and supply my family with food and shelter, he has provided me the means with which to defend it against those who would violate it.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Even still, you think he'd 'teach me a lesson' that's against his commandment in both the Old and New Testament? *Booming voice* "saint4, it's your fault those school children died. You're responsible for their deaths because you didn't have your sidearm cocked and ready. Shame on you."


    The slaughtered children on your conscience are not punishment enough? You would require God to personally make an appearance (if only in voice) to point out that you had let a very bad man commit even more acts of greater and greater evil? Not even Jesus would test God so (Matthew 4:5-7). Sometimes the consequences of action or inaction by someone, is its own punishment or lesson. If a church depended upon me for a vital task, and I failed to accomplish it, would God speak directly to me and tell me I was wrong to be so lax, and explain why? Doubtful. More likely my punishment would be in seeing the endeavor the church sought to accomplish result in failure.


    Originally posted by saint4God
    Stuff stuff stuff. It's all garbage. I know, I have all that garbage too. If we invested a quarter of what we have (time, money, etc.) into people, we'd be a hundred times richer for it!


    It is all garbage? The means with which to live, that God has so graciously allowed you to obtain, you call garbage? (shaking head sadly). How can one take the assumption that God would save them from any number of heinous acts, but so quickly assume that any material possessions bestowed upon them were not also a result of God's Blessing? Did not the Israelites defend their land, numerous times?

    As for investing a quarter of what we have into people... I already do that. Every day I spend at least a quarter of my day trying to get at least one person to sit down and seriously think, something that most people willingly admit they try to avoid. Why? Because I am not rich. I'm not even middle-class. I barely scrape above the poverty line. All that I have to share with others is my mind, and what scant charity I can afford to scrounge up.

    But additionally one must take a longer-term approach to provisions, if they truly wish to make a difference. As the saying goes, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach a man to fish, you feed him for life. The same goes, in many ways, towards possessions, to an extent. While a Brittany Spears CD may teach a child nothing useful, a computer may allow them to learn, grow, and become a better person for it. How well can one provide for their family if they have nothing? Have you truly made the world a better place if you have given away all your possessions, only to see your own child turn to a life of crime to obtain that which you cannot provide? Have you made the world a better place if you give all your books away, only to have your own child grow up ignorant and borderline illiterate?

    In the end, one's life and family and fellow man is more precious than money, but some material possessions are still the basic tenants by which we grow and nurture each other in society.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Originally posted by thelibra
    There is nothing in the Bible that says one should not defend their home.


    There's nothing saying you should. How often did Jesus defend his house?


    Give it time (Revelations 19).

    But the rapture and suchlike aside, God doesn't expect us to always be like Jesus. Nor does Buddha expect us to always act like Sidharta (sp?), Catholics don't expect every woman to be the Virgin Mary, and Muslims do not expect every Muslim to act as the Prophet Muhammed (sp?). There are basic tenants set forth, but the fact of the matter is that we live in a world of mortal people, and sometimes problems must be solved by mortal means.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Originally posted by thelibra
    The exact context of turn the other cheek is in reference to threats or attacks which do not violate our intrinsic right to life, or to provide for our family. For instance, you shouldn't shoot someone for calling you a name, and it's best not to stoop to their level. It does not mean, IMO, that one should sit idly by and allow some lawless bastage to violate you.


    I know where you're coming from in that I have the same feelings. It's a tough battle and unfortunately I've brought you into the war I'm having with myself on the issue.


    On the contrary, I am rather secure in my beliefs. They do change, but they change more slowly than before because I've already considered most of the largest life-shattering issues I can face during my present life. Someday that may change as well, and I am forced to rethink my entire philosophy. I try to treat my neighbor as I would, myself, be treated. And if I were to commit a grievous act upon someone else, I would fully expect to reap the punishments that were applicable to it.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    Originally posted by thelibra
    I believe that there was once a man named Jesus, who was so convinced that he was the Son of God that he got others to believe it as well. Beyond that, I pretend to know nothing.

    Alright, how about what he had to say on all other things?


    I think he said some things that made sense. But I also think a lot of people attribute their own agenda towards his actions and words, or at the very least, attribute their deepest fears and desires towards them. Note that I said "people". Non-Christians are as guilty of it as Christians are.

    Originally posted by saint4God
    You've got great reasoning which is why I'm totally into this discussion and ask all the questions. Who knows, maybe you'll be changing my mind on a few things.


    Thank you. Perhaps you will change your mind, or perhaps as a result you will find even greater conviction in your beliefs, having had them questioned, and being forced to justify them. Either will leave me with a smile, so long as deep thought is given to the final result.

    Sorry for my insanely long reponse...I really am enjoying our discussion.

    [edit on 1/13/2005 by thelibra]


reply posted on 14-1-2005 @ 07:08 AM by saint4God
but I'm going to take this quiz first

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
Question everyone, is this a fair way to state the one real belief?


Originally posted by drbryankkruta
1 Does your service and faith honor God despite the name you use to describe this faith or God himself.


I certainly hope so. Anyone can take the label, but all that matters is true belief.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
2 Is your belief beneficial to following the course God and not man has laid out for you.


Yes. Often it's hard because my wants and needs take a back-seat.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
3 Can you belive and do you believe in God sight unseen with no proof other than the promise to us God exists as our father and is watching over us trying to help us along.


This one is tricky for me. The basic answer is yes, though I had my 'proof' of the Devil (it's all my fault, I asked for it) so coming to the idea of God was somewhat facilitated by the negative though nearly resulted in the loss of my life & soul.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
4 Does you faith in God transend the harm of fellow man because they dont agree with you.


ABSOLUTELY! See the discussion thelibra and I are having.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
5 Finally do you believe that you are serving God the way he wishes you to in your heart.


I do now, but not to say I felt the same for the last 15 or so years. I've been Christian all the while but didn't know or see how I was doing anything for him. Looking back I see some points where I was and a whole bunch of 'setting-up' for right now. It's very bizarre. It took a lot of praying and sincerety to be activated to the point I am now. Even still, I don't get proofs right away that absolutely I'm doing what he wants so I tend to be cautious even though I'm assured I need not be sometimes.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
Based on your answers to these simple questions in your own heart you now have your answer as to what the true ONE FAITH is its the simple feelings and love for God you have in you its a personal issue that we are incuraged to discuss but not force on others.

ITS ALL UP TO YOU TO HAVE THE ONE TRUE FAITH not anyone else.
Its inside you and shows through your actions.


True dat.

[edit on 14-1-2005 by saint4God]


reply posted on 14-1-2005 @ 07:37 AM by thelibra
Originally posted by drbryankkruta
1 Does your service and faith honor God despite the name you use to describe this faith or God himself.


Yes, I make a point to do so. Now the real question is: am I doing it properly? I'll never know until I die.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
2 Is your belief beneficial to following the course God and not man has laid out for you.


Tough call. To say "yes" or "no" would imply that I can comprehend God's Plan, and IMHO, no one can possibly do that except God. However, I do fancy myself as trying my best to be 'as a cork in the river', if that helps.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
3 Can you belive and do you believe in God sight unseen with no proof other than the promise to us God exists as our father and is watching over us trying to help us along.


Yes, because if you define God as "the most powerful being in the universe at that point in time", then there must be a God, unless all beings in the Universe are dead. But now you're getting into specifics. Just because there is a God, does not mean that It is our father. There's not even a guarentee that It is the same God that was around at the time mankind first began to worship, or even the same God as last week.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
4 Does you faith in God transend the harm of fellow man because they dont agree with you.


Errr... I think you may have meant "prohibit". "Transcend" means to go beyond, which would imply that it advocates doing much more than just harming someone who disagrees with you.

In either case, the answer is no. It neither encourages nor discourages violence, that's a matter of personal choice of ethics and adherence Social Contract.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
5 Finally do you believe that you are serving God the way he wishes you to in your heart.


Yep. Assuming God cares, Yep.


reply posted on 14-1-2005 @ 07:48 AM by Bondi
Originally posted by LadyV
Originally posted by Bondi


*clap* Exactly, everyone who posts here is making a judgement based on their own analasys of information provided, or their belief in someone elses (maybe a little wrongly phrased there).


Bull! There is a difference between being "judgmental" and stating your belief...a "huge" difference.....funny you don't see that. One is stating something as if it is fact and the other is voicing an opinion.


It is the bull claim that annoyed, not upset, me. Your account of my error, is in fact an error.

judg·men·tal adj.

Of, relating to, or dependent on judgment: a judgmental error.
To make "judgments", especially moral or personal ones: a marriage counselor who tries not to be judgmental.

judg·ment also judge·ment
n.
The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: eg Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating:
eg His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense:
eg She showed good judgment in saving her money.

An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision:
eg awaited the judgment of the umpire.

A belief is a source for considieration and deliveration when deciding on factors of life, both in action and in moral.

[edit on 14/1/2005 by Bondi]


reply posted on 14-1-2005 @ 09:56 AM by saint4God
If I fail to address any points it's most likely that I can either agree or need to do more thinking about the subject matter. Since there's no point posting a bunch of 'yups' or 'hms....', I'll just go through the '...but what abouts..."

Originally posted by thelibra
Okay, so it's not so much that you wouldn't intervene, but rather you would opt to use nonlethal force to intercept the intruder.


Excellent way of putting it! I didn't quite know how to put it into words, but I do now! Thanks.

Originally posted by thelibra
In a situation this severe, I personally would opt to use lethal force as a first resort, even were I a Christian, for two reasons:

  • God would forgive me, IMO.


    • Perhaps but part of living for him is not going down the path of sin (I know I know, you discuss later why it would not be but I'm standing by the Ten Commandments and Jesus' - The Greatest Commandment).

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Even as a Christian, there are a myriad of ways of obtaining forgiveness. Everything from simply praying and asking for it,


    According to the Book, that's all that's needed backed with sincerity and the willingness to change.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    to getting baptized again, to going to confession and doing penance.


    ...seems ceremonial to me. I can see though if done in sincerity how it could work. Kind of like me and exercise. I first have to leave home in order to do it otherwise I sit on my butt.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    My spiritual beliefs are not quite as simple as simply asking for it. I would then have to find a way to balance it out. Perhaps by saving a life. But that would be for my own edification. God, as a being, understands on a far deeper level than I can ever imagine. If God could forgive a man who lived his entire life as a murderous villanous scumbag that did horrible things, he could forgive a man who lived most of his life as a good person, and once slipped into wrath, and genuinely sought forgiveness.


    I think you've hit it on the head with the 'genuine' aspect. God does not work on a 'points' system. Hard to accept for a lot of Christians because peeps by nature are the competative type and we're all about getting the percentage or the next level.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    I got to receive the physical sort quite a bit, but my sister got worse than I did, and my brother received the absolute worst. I actually got to watch, one Christmas, as my mother pushed my brother down the stairs, after beating him, and when he lay at the bottom, his ankle twisted horribly from a breakage, she flew down the stairs, grabbed him by the hair, and proceded to slam his face repeatedly into a brick wall seperating the kitchen from the den. I was probably six or seven at the time.

    One may ask, how could I ever love people like that? The long and short of it is, I didn't... for nearly two decades. Then, in my mid-20's my father realized he had no children left, only offspring. He began to try and be my father, a father I'd never had before. At first I refused, and it was only with time, earned trust, and proving he'd changed, that I slowly came around. Eventually my mom reached the same state of mind. I can forgive them now, because I know they've changed, that they genuinely regret the past, and want to be good people. Now, almost 30, I share a healthy relationship with my parents, and have learned from the past on what not to do, and to a degree, what to do right, when I have children.


    What a tremendous story of trial and forgiveness! Totally glad you shared this and though a terrible thing to go through that things eventually came to such a positive light. Perhaps it'll help others going through this to see hope.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    I have spent over 90% of my life in Texas. I was born here, as was most of my family. (and for the record, most of us can't stand Bush, but that's another discussion altogether). Anyway, Texas is a harsh land. In times past, it made todays harshness look like a day at the park.


    Regarding argument to have a gun at home to protect from intruders, there's this article that supports what you're saying:

    www.thebackpacker.com...

    I wish there were more statistics available. As for me, I guess with enough training, me hitting someone could be considered 'assault with a deadly weapon'. Then there's me on the courtroom stand, "*sigh* I didn't kill him, did I?" *slam goes the gavel* "15 years of prison with hard labor." Still, our legal system isn't broken in some places? Granted I think it's the best so far but still has a ways to go.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Having descended from the Sac & Fox Tribe, I have my own beef with what happened to the Native Americans back in the day.


    So let's give back! Who disputes we took the land? I'm not saying all of it, but these little patches of land are a pathetic consolation prize. There's a good bit of undeveloped land out there still.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    One might quite reasonably assume that from my series of posts, that I am a gun-toting redneck just itchin' to find someone to shoot.


    LOL . Sorry, I know how it feels to be stereotyped.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Thus, if America were invaded, I'd volunteer to join the armed forces immediately.


    Wow, guess I wouldn't last very long. Could you see someone in techno/industrial clothes and a staff trying to ward of invaders with machine guns? Pointless, huh? Would I take up arms? I really don't know. This would be cause for some serious prayer.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    If, however, it was a war overseas, in a country that had never launched an attack against us, I would support our troops from afar, and curse our leaders from up close.


    How can you support the troops and curse the leaders? Did we as a country not elect the leaders? This seems to be templated across the nation though I have yet to understand it. Do I support the troops? I pray to God they are kept safe and that they do the right thing. Same goes for the leaders. I cannot condemn something I don't fully comprehend. I watch, read, and talk about the news daily but unless I'm involved, I can't see what they see.

    Originally posted by thelibra
  • Exodus 21:12-25 - God laws down the law
    "12 "Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.


    • This was in fact the old law to maintain some assemblence of order. Jesus addresses this a lot in the gospels and why there is a better way.

    Originally posted by thelibra
  • 1 Samuel 17:45-49 - David slays Goliath.
    "45 Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head; and I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel,


    • The Old Testament does had a lot of God-backed war in defense. The New Testament? Again, there's a better way.

    Originally posted by thelibra
  • Romans 13 - Legally Exacting Death
    "1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer."


    • I agree with almost all laws of this country however when there is a conflict with the law of God, I'll go with God.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    There are numerous other passages I could quote from, but it would require reading the Bible in it's entirety again to find ones that are not taken out of context, and I don't quite have that much time before my fiance returns home.


    I've got the Book with me if you'd rather just refer to passages to save time. I like the quotes though and find them very relevant to our discussion and prolly to those who don't have a Book handy.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    I can see how it would, but my meaning was that one cannot pick and choose what is and is not within God's Plan. If I act merciful towards a man, I can no more claim it was part of God's Plan than I can if I were to commit a heinous act of villainy.


    Question: Does God ask people to commit heinous acts of villainy?

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Take for instance the story of Job. He allows this man to be utterly broken by having his wealth, health, and loved ones torn away from him in the worst ways possible, just to satisfy a bet with Satan. For what?


    Do you think Job was without learning anything from his experience? Do you think Job was without reward? Do you think those who read about Job learned nothing? There's a bigger plan in play that benefited a thousand times more than Job torments on earth. Granted if any of us were in the same position, we'd fall right apart I'm sure. I whine about stupid crap all the time. Job tells me two things: 1) Suck it up, God loves you 2) It'll be worth it, do not be without hope.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    To be able to have bragging rights on how devout a follower was?


    Do you think God cares about bragging rights for a being as pathetic as the Devil?

    Originally posted by thelibra
    He instructs a Abraham to take his son to the top of a mountain and sacrifice him. For what? A test of faith?


    Yes. Abraham learns something. Everyone reading it learns something. I learned to trust God though the path seems undesireable at times because in the end, he'll have you do the right thing.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Yet Christians trust in God's Plan every single day, and feel that there must be some sort of justification, beyond knowing that God has it all worked out in the end, and that everything that happens, happens for a reason.


    Just as stated above.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Well, it can't happen both ways. You cannot say that God's Plan only involves mercy, love, and harmony, because there's an entire book, and history of a world that shows this is not the case.


    The history of the world was ran by men - free will and all. God does not move every piece and control every thought. What would be the point?

    Originally posted by thelibra
    There is even the possibility, as shown by St. Anselm, that not even God knows exactly every little detail that will happen within the Plan, but rather, what the end result will be.


    Perhaps this is true. God knows.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Thus, killing violating intruder may possibly have just as much place within God's Plan as being merciful towards him. Or, it is possible that the entire incident is of no consequence to the plan whatsoever, that it is merely a detail that came about in the culmination of The Plan.


    A person's role is not to know God's plan. It is to look around and make the right decision, using his words as a guide.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    The slaughtered children on your conscience are not punishment enough?


    I am supposed to take accountability for another's sins? Now this I want to see in verse somewhere. At the end of my life, I have to be responsible for who I have killed. I cannot live in a world of "what if..." and "if only I had done x instead of y to prevent future stuff from occuring..." scenarios.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    You would require God to personally make an appearance (if only in voice) to point out that you had let a very bad man commit even more acts of greater and greater evil?


    No. I do get answers in one form or another though.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Not even Jesus would test God


    Whoa, hold up. Never said I would and certainly did not mean to imply it.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    It is all garbage? The means with which to live, that God has so graciously allowed you to obtain, you call garbage?


    After you die, can you take it with you? Will you see your stuff in the place you'll be spending eternity? So yes, it is garbage. It's nice to have, granted, but still worthless.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    (shaking head sadly). How can one take the assumption that God would save them from any number of heinous acts, but so quickly assume that any material possessions bestowed upon them were not also a result of God's Blessing?


    I never meant that. God does bless us with stuff. But we need to recognize people are a billion times more important and be able to leave it behind at any given moment.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Did not the Israelites defend their land, numerous times?


    To what end?

    Originally posted by thelibra
    As for investing a quarter of what we have into people... I already do that. Every day I spend at least a quarter of my day trying to get at least one person to sit down and seriously think, something that most people willingly admit they try to avoid.


    You're reaching your daily goal with me

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Why? Because I am not rich. I'm not even middle-class. I barely scrape above the poverty line. All that I have to share with others is my mind, and what scant charity I can afford to scrounge up.


    Sounds like you've got this concept nailed then, so why the fight?

    Originally posted by thelibra
    But additionally one must take a longer-term approach to provisions, if they truly wish to make a difference. As the saying goes, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach a man to fish, you feed him for life. The same goes, in many ways, towards possessions, to an extent. While a Brittany Spears CD may teach a child nothing useful, a computer may allow them to learn, grow, and become a better person for it.


    It could also hook them up with a very, very bad person who could ruin their mind and their life. It could motivate someone to break into your house which in a heated situation turns into shootings. There's pluses and minuses to all these things.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    How well can one provide for their family if they have nothing?


    Food, water, shelter. Okay, these I'll put into the 'non-garbage' catagory.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Have you truly made the world a better place if you have given away all your possessions, only to see your own child turn to a life of crime to obtain that which you cannot provide?


    Sounds like a problem beyond material goods. Is embezzlement really a 'good crime' compared to petty theft? To me a high-society crime and low-society crime is still a crime.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Have you made the world a better place if you give all your books away, only to have your own child grow up ignorant and borderline illiterate?


    We have a local library and my child goes to school. No, it is not 'necessary'. Is there an IQ test to get into Heaven? In that case, I'm obviously doomed

    Originally posted by thelibra
    In the end, one's life and family and fellow man is more precious than money, but some material possessions are still the basic tenants by which we grow and nurture each other in society.


    *shrug* Don't be surprised if I start hosting a 'give-away' fairly soon. My life is taking some startling turns recently.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    But the rapture and suchlike aside, God doesn't expect us to always be like Jesus.


    Don't you think he wants us to try? After all, he is his son - the shining role-model for humanity.

    Originally posted by thelibra
    On the contrary, I am rather secure in my beliefs.


    Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were having issue with it, merely that I'm dragging you into my issues with it ^_^.

    [edit on 14-1-2005 by saint4God]


    reply posted on 14-1-2005 @ 11:55 AM by samuel
    It is important to come to God sincerely and ask Him about Himself and about some guidance. We should open the eyes of our heart to see Him and find Him because He is Spirit and not material.

    God is close to everybody, loves everybody, and works to convince everybody about His existence, His love and His plan for us. It is our responsibility to be sensitive to Him, to His signs and to His Word.

    Imagine this little fictional story:

    =======================
    Not long time ago there was a company who wanted to hire some Morse code experts. They ran a test and chose the best five people among all who submitted the test. They appointed one meeting with all these five people.

    On the day of the meeting, there was only four who showed at the exact time. The fifth guy was late about 5 minutes and when he showed up, all other four looked at him in a sarcastic manner and moved their head mocking. The guy set in his place embarrassed.

    Few minutes later, the new coming guy raised his head, stood up, and walked straight to the opposite room, opened the door and entered. Immediately, the manager of the firm came out with him shaking hands and happy that he decided to hire the guy. The other four were furious about it and wanted a clear explanation of what happened. The manager replied:
    - It’s been around 10 min that we were emitting Morse code signs saying “Come In, Come In” nobody of you responded. This guy was perceptive enough to hear the signs and walk in…
    =======================

    Well the story is a fake one... But it can easily describe how active is the Holy Spirit and is sending signs to all of us everyday wherever we are. We just need to be tuned to Him and listen to Him.

    God is not insecure. He gave us the freedom of choice. If we truly seek Him, we will surely find Him.


    [edit on 14/1/2005 by samuel]
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