Originally posted by wang
Ok, i just asked in a prayer manner what i wanted to know from god....i didnt get any sort of vision, nor a voice in my head talking back to me. Should i wait for one of gods myterious ways of telling me the truth................

I offer you the same advice I was given when I was 12.
Choose your religion based upon what you believe,
not the other way around.

Meaning, you may want to sit down with a pad and pen someday when you have time, and start to write down everything you personally believe to be true about the divine, life after death, morals, ethics, and so forth. It's taken me four journals so far and I've yet to finish... but the important part isn't so much as writing it down, as getting into the habit of figuring out what you believe to be true, and then allowing for those beliefs to grow, die off, or change, as is needed through your life.

Just as you currently think in a different way then you did when you were a child, in 10 or 20 years, you will think a different way as well. Life experiences give us naturally occuring vantage points from which to determine our views on things. But you can accelerate this process by forcing yourself to question what you believe on a regular basis, and finding out if you have a satisfactory answer.

It's not typical to receive a vision or voice. Though these things have happened before to some people, God asks us to sincerely talk with Him and have faith that you'll receive your answer. Do you believe you will?

Wang, you've made a very real move to that exact answer to your question. My advice is to pay close attention to the things around you and notice any changes or new conclusions you've come to. He's a loving God that wants the absolute best for you and is able to deliver. In addition to posting, feel free to U2U me as well if you have any questions, complaints, challenges, etc.

gps777 & jessemole, please help me out by praying for wang to see only the truth as well.

Originally posted by thelibra
Choose your religion based upon what you believe,
not the other way around.

Meaning, you may want to sit down with a pad and pen someday when you have time, and start to write down everything you personally believe to be true about the divine, life after death, morals, ethics, and so forth.

If this were true, I would have been dead 15 years ago. I am not kidding.

In the context of what is the one true faith , it is only this the faith in God not the structured religon, God doesnt care what you call your faith as long as your faith is in him and his son who died for the sins of your life. you can label faith as christian, jewish, muslim , etc but none of that matters only the true faith of God and Jesus matters period religious shells are useless. The politics of the church that man has made is useless. Titles of people are useless, God says have faith in him and Jesus and the word of Gods law and to spread his word to all the lands and peoples of the world period all the rest dont matter.


Faith is also not a verification by deeds, IE you do not have to get any visions or deeds or proof to have faith nore does God state he will even do so if asked he you already have your response when asking for proof in order to belive he commanded test him not just for that reason.

[edit on 13/1/2005 by drbryankkruta]

[edit on 13/1/2005 by drbryankkruta]

Faith is a personal institution. If you mean what is the true religion, as in the most advanced religion, then it is a different question. Not all religions are equal - it does not matter what the fence-sitters tell you. There are positive religions and negative religions.

I must really laugh at the topic-author calling Hinduism mythology. Yet, Christianity and Judaism is history? Right.

Christianity: It's a religion created by men to control the masses through fear and ruled by a lesser god that contradicts himself. There is only one positive aspect of Christianity and that is Jesus's teachings, who I hold in very high esteem. I just do not agree with Jesus's,
" turn the other cheek" philosophy. It got him crucified.

Judaism: Another religion created by men to control the masses through fear and ruled by a lesser god that contradicts himself.

Islam: It's a fundamentalist religion created by a selfish, deceitful, greedy and cold-blooded tyrant and ruled by an equally tyannical and war-like God. Orginally the moon god.

Atheism: Not really a religion, but a group that has no sense of morals or purpose and fairly ignorant and arrogant.

Buddhism: A step in the right direction, but a small step. A religion that can be counter-productive to social growth and psychological growth. As it endorses ascetism and repression.

Hinduism: A very enlightened and scientific religion with a lot of rich literature and philosophy. Unfortunately, spoiled by caste systems, gender inequality, idol worship and superstitions.

Sikhism: A synthesis of the better elements of Hinduism and Buddhism. An open-minded and liberal spiritual faith that believes in equality, a personal and loving god and leading a life of work, meditation and charity. The only drawback is some of the militant undertones that crept in with the last guru.

In order of best to worst:

1. Sikhism
2. Buddhism
3. Hindusim
4. Christianity
5. Judaism
6. Islam

I myself do not belong to any religion. I am a spiritualist. I live and learn from lifes experiences to learn what I already know.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

There is no one "true" religion...there is only one creating force and people fight over which way to worship/find/believe in it. The sad thing is what people "do" in the name of what they believe is the one true faith....My personal belief is that none of the faiths/religions that worshiped today, actually nails it down......I think everyone is just cluster messing it all up...most people don't have a clue as to the "truth"

Originally posted by LadyV

There is no one "true" religion...there is only one creating force and people fight over which way to worship/find/believe in it. The sad thing is what people "do" in the name of what they believe is the one true faith....My personal belief is that none of the faiths/religions that worshiped today, actually nails it down......I think everyone is just cluster messing it all up...most people don't have a clue as to the "truth"

Messianic Judaism is the one true faith or its American version "The Worldwide Church of God". "Christian JEW" for those who don't understand. ALL others are PAGAN. Yes especially Catholic's.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Atheism: Not really a religion, but a group that has no sense of morals or purpose and fairly ignorant and arrogant.

Could you lay off the biggotry a bit please? Talk about arrogance.

This is a discussion Libra and I were having on another thread that he thought would be best suited here. At first we were talking about the comparisons of majic and guns. My case was to why someone shouldn't use either - majic spiritually and guns physically. I think we've moved moreso to the physical portion but some relations still apply. Then we moved into more of what fits on this thread. Here's where we're at:

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by saint4God
1.) Once when I was over there, I'd seen a good number of ((guns)) in plain view. I wondered what prevented me from just taking one. Considering who I was at the time, it was a very scary thought.

My guess would be "good judgement" as to what prevented you.

Thank God for that! I wouldn't be so quick to trust myself back then.

Originally posted by thelibra
The ultimate purpose of a gun is to wound or kill the target. As to what to protect and why, I present this. The body may be dust in any number of years: none of us knows exactly how much time we have left in our present lifetime. However, a man robbing my house may also decide to rape my wife, children, myself, or may have yet even more sinister plans in mind. Am I to simply stand by and allow it to happen, with the justification that after we are dead, it won't matter anymore?

Love even when someone commits crimes of hate against you. As I say this, I hear it myself. It would take every last nerve, bone and muscle to stop me from killing someone invading my house believe me but doesn't make it the right thing to do. Jesus had a habit of stepping in front of targeted victims and speaking. Easy for me to say...it takes more nerve to do this than pull a trigger I think. I hope if the time comes I could do it.

Originally posted by thelibra
How could any man live with himself knowing he did nothing to prevent it?

As you ask this quesion, I ask it of myself. I know the answer but it's really hard to accept. One must trust that turning the other cheek is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by thelibra
A gun is the most effective method of stopping such things in progress.

Why kill? Not a fan of melee then? Just throwing it out there. I've been bouncing around the idea recently but I can tell you what I did when I had no time to think: I've grabbed a staff (my choices were staff, sharpened katana, unsharpened broadsword, longsword, three-sectioned staff, or buccaneer's knife) to help a neighbor check her house on a suspected break-in. Though I'm not the best trained, I can bet I'd use and defend with it better than a burglar. If he has a gun, that'd wake up the neighborhood for sure and the cost is only myself. Is it right for me to knock somebody out with a staff as a Christian? The questions are getting harder, can I use a life-line? I'm not sure. Okay okay, well the way I saw it is you treat children as children. Spare the rod and spoil the child. I would not kill him. In fact, I'd feel obligated to pay for the hospital bill if I was too rough, visit, say I'm sorry and offer to help any way I could. Should I have gone unarmed instead? Again, I don't know. I do know I would not have grabbed a 10-gauge. What if it was her boyfriend trying to surprise her? *BLAM!* Oops.

Originally posted by thelibra
Perhaps my body will someday be dust, but I must live in this body until then, and knowing that my family and our scant posessions are relatively safer gives me more peace of mind.

Peace of mind can be achieved by trusting in God. His plan and will supersedes our attempts to control our environment. Also, what good are posessions? Yeah they're fun to play with but when it comes down to it, are they in need of protection?

Originally posted by thelibra
Oh, I take no offense at all. I enjoy discussing theology, and as I've often read in your previous posts, you are one with whom I'd be delighted to speak with.

Thanks! It does mean a lot, and you've thrown some real thinkers at me which is awesome at challenging my own beliefs. Now I have to think and pray about self-defense...

Originally posted by thelibra
To answer your question, I don't consider it a chance. In fact, I consider it even less of a chance than choosing any particular religion. My churches are the mountains, forests, oceans, the sky...all things that I can say "God created this". I carry God within my thoughts and soul. I do good acts, and I gives thanks often for the blessings I have been offered. I do not pretend to know God's mind, but I trust in the divine far more than I put trust in mankind. Religion is an invention of man, not God.

I think you've hit a point most people miss. I think it's important to follow-through though. You don't believe he sent his son to teach us and eventually die to give us a chance to redeem ourselves? How about any of the Old Testament? Just trying to relate where you're coming from.


[edit on 13-1-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by DrHoracid


Messianic Judaism is the one true faith or its American version "The Worldwide Church of God". "Christian JEW" for those who don't understand. ALL others are PAGAN. Yes especially Catholic's.

Ya know....it's this crap that I am not here as much as I used to be...it gets so old having to say the same thing to the same people....
You do not know that it is the one true religion, you "think" it is, but that does not make it true....once again.
just because you believe something does not mean it is the truth! why is that so hard for you to understand!? You can believe something so completely that you would give your life for it...but it does not mean it's the truth!

[edit on 1/13/2005 by LadyV]

About true faith.... well if you just sit down and try to blank your mind out. Try thinking about spirituality, what you believe is right (not what you say you believe). Think about the enormity of the universe, what could be out there, etc.
Once your done, and you don't believe that there is some base in religion, then your lucky (or unlucky, depending). If you do find that there is some "God" out there, you've got it hard. Now you will have to study all the religions, and find something that fits to your ideals, or you could just accept that there is a God out there, and you will do your best as a human being to make that God proud.

Indigo_Child, those were some rather biased and unfair generalisations. However, if I start trying to refute each and everyone one, I would have to start a new thread.
I always thought that Buddhism was a sort of idealogy, not an actual religion in itself, with all that Buddha worshipping coming later (correct me if I am wrong here).
Anyways, study from all religions, they all have something good to offer. Even if you don't believe in a God, that doesn't mean you can't live life in an exemplary way, just do what what your "inner self" considers to be the good and right thing.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child


Atheism: Not really a religion, but a group that has no sense of morals or purpose and fairly ignorant and arrogant.

Wow....your calling "them" arrogant....re-read what you wrote....you seem to be the arrogant one...

In order of best to worst:

1. Sikhism
2. Buddhism
3. Hindusim
4. Christianity
5. Judaism
6. Islam

This is your belief...but who gave you the spiritual upper hand to judge.....

From this thread I would say there is no real religion left, just politics. The majority of "followers of faith" sepnd more time telling people that their faith is the one true, or that others are not. Rather than anything else, if every religion went back to the basic tuition of how to act, to be tolerant, kind, generous etc etc to all man kind,not just those who agree with you. Then you would find your one true faith.

It was never about the name, but about the actions.

People spoke of ideals, a way of people living together peacefully and in harmony, as soon as some one gives it a name the ideal is gone.

If everyone in the world suddenly developed religous tolerance, generosity, charity and higher morals you would have the Utopia most religions talk of, you would have your promised land.

I'll just step down from the old soap box now LOL

Wow....your calling "them" arrogant....re-read what you wrote....you seem to be the arrogant one...

To call an arrogant group, arrogant, does not mean you are arrogant yourself.

In order of best to worst:

1. Sikhism
2. Buddhism
3. Hindusim
4. Christianity
5. Judaism
6. Islam

This is your belief...but who gave you the spiritual upper hand to judge.....

I don't need anyones permission to make a judgement. I am analysing these religions based on their pros and cons, and the better religions are obviously those with more pros. It's like reviewing a book for me.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I don't need anyones permission to make a judgement.

*clap* Exactly, everyone who posts here is making a judgement based on their own analasys of information provided, or their belief in someone elses (maybe a little wrongly phrased there).

Whatever tickles your fancy. Religion has always struck me as trying to explain things which werent currently understood. This is called God of the gaps, and today with science, the gaps are becoming smaller and smaller. Oddly enough, with the gaps becoming smaller, one could argue that we are getting closer to understanding "God". It's all semantics, I dont care much for it because it's getting tiresome. My beliefs tend to be more atheistic, but this doesnt define exactly what I believe or who I am, after all, language is only an approximation. I dont see life issues as strictly polarized, its a lot of grey area for me, so I dont believe in absolute truths. Im rambling now, but basically there is no possible way to verify an "absolute truth", so just pick whatever is beneficial for you, others and the earth. We are social animals and things could be a lot better if we cooperate. peace

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
We are social animals and things could be a lot better if we cooperate. peace

As you will see from my post above I agree with you somewhat. Although unfortunately we can see from our current existance the average human, not meant in a demeaning way, needs a faith, needs to know there is something there, needs a reason to live.

If it were a case of you live, you die, that's it, I wouldn't work, pay bills, I would take what I wanted, I wouldn't really care for anyone else, why would I, I am only gonna die, might as well get everything I want from this rotating ball of earth, sod the rest. And many would be the same, Anarchy wins.

Originally posted by Bondi

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
We are social animals and things could be a lot better if we cooperate. peace

As you will see from my post above I agree with you somewhat. Although unfortunately we can see from our current existance the average human, not meant in a demeaning way, needs a faith, needs to know there is something there, needs a reason to live.

If it were a case of you live, you die, that's it, I wouldn't work, pay bills, I would take what I wanted, I wouldn't really care for anyone else, why would I, I am only gonna die, might as well get everything I want from this rotating ball of earth, sod the rest. And many would be the same, Anarchy wins.

I see what you are saying, but nobody needs faith to have morals. This issue gets brought up by theists a lot, but only because they have been conditioned to think that way. We are much more flexible than we think, its just hard to break habits and think different ways. We define our own purpose in life and strive for it.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
In the context of what is the one true faith , it is only this the faith in God not the structured religon, God doesnt care what you call your faith as long as your faith is in him and his son who died for the sins of your life.

You're sorta contradicting yourself there by saying God doesn't care what faith you follow just as long as you follow his word and that of his son Jesus. The worship of Jesus Christ being the son of God is the core value within Christianity & Catholicism. In other religions, the belief is that Jesus was a profit of God and not the messiah to mankind, nor the son of God during his time on Earth.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Messianic Judaism is the one true faith or its American version "The Worldwide Church of God". "Christian JEW" for those who don't understand. ALL others are PAGAN. Yes especially Catholic's.

You are so full of it! Messianic Judaism is a religious movement who's roots originated in Europe during the year 1866, with it's American wing forming in 1915. You're so blasphemous calling all other faiths Pagans when Messianic Judaism didn't take off entirely until 1993.

Nothing wrong with being a Messianic Jew, which basically combines Judaism with a splash of Evangelical Christianity. Yes, I believe your religion to be more "Jewish Christian" than "Christian Jew". However, putting your beliefs aside, it is wrong to disrespect other religions classifying them as pagan because your mid 19th century religion says so.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by thelibra
...a man robbing my house may also decide to rape my wife, children, myself, or may have yet even more sinister plans in mind...
...How could any man live with himself knowing he did nothing to prevent it?...

Love even when someone commits crimes of hate against you...Easy for me to say...it takes more nerve to do this than pull a trigger I think. I hope if the time comes I could do it....

...As you ask this quesion, I ask it of myself. I know the answer but it's really hard to accept. One must trust that turning the other cheek is the right thing to do...

Now I just want to be clear on this, because I want to make sure I read it right... Are you saying that if a loaded gun were in your hand, and you found a man who had broken into your house, and was brutally raping your daughter or wife, that you wouldn't shoot him? Instead, you would turn the other cheek?

I could never do that. The man who would violate my family so would be lucky to only find himself dead, and I consider myself to be a limited pacifist of rational mind.

I just got a pile of extra work at the office, so the rest of my answers will have to br brief, but I'll try my best.

Originally posted by saint4God
Why kill?

Any law enforcement or lawyer will tell you this is the most effective method of avoiding lawsuit later on, and to prevent retribution by the person who was shot. Disabling them, on the other hand, allows them to sue you (usually successfully), and to enact revenge later on. The #1 rule of thumb is that if you have an invader in your house, shoot to kill, and only shoot once if you hit. Anything else will result in jail time.

Originally posted by saint4God
Not a fan of melee then? Just throwing it out there.

On the contrary, I keep a baseball bat by my bed, swords on the wall, and a several knives around the house. Anyone who breaks into my domain thinking to find a victim will find themselves instead victim to any number of lethal attacks. What I was saying though, is that a gun is the most effective method of stopping an intruder dead in his tracks.

Originally posted by saint4God
Is it right for me to knock somebody out with a staff as a Christian? The questions are getting harder, can I use a life-line? I'm not sure.

Well, according to the Bible, even using a gun is fine. Christians never played nice in times of war. When violence was called for, they fought with all the fury and vengeance that their God could summon. I'd quote any number of passages, but as I mentioned, I need to go soon, and get to working on my assignments.

Originally posted by saint4God
What if it was her boyfriend trying to surprise her? *BLAM!* Oops.

This is an eternal quandry facing those with guns. What if you shoot a member of your own family, or a friend, who didn't have the sense to turn on a light and identify themselves. I wish I had an answer here. This issue has come up a number of times in my own family, who have a long and passionate history with their guns, and no one has ever been shot by accident, but then they also knew to identify themselves. I guess the only advice I can offer is to always maintain a clear head when a firearm is in your hand. Once you let the firearm do the thinking for you, you've become no better than the intruder. Always keep the mentality that your ammo is precious, and that you only have one shot, and to make that shot count, and perhaps it will stay your finger enough seconds to get a better view of the situation.

Originally posted by saint4God
Peace of mind can be achieved by trusting in God. His plan and will supersedes our attempts to control our environment.

Back when I was a Christian, a minister gave a sermon on following God's plan. He opened it with the following joke:

"A minister was at home, when a flood came into the city... As the water rose up to the threshold, a row-boat came by, and noticed him watching from the door.

'Get in,' they called. 'We'll row you to safety.'

'No, that's alright. God will save me,' the minister waved them off.

The flood rose higher, and the minister was forced to go to the second story of his house. As he watched out the window, a passing motorboat with police in it stopped nearby.

'Stay where you are,' they called out to him. 'We'll come over and get you to dry land!'

But the minister waved them away as well, calling out 'I trust in my God, he will save me.'

The flood rose yet even higher, until finally the minister had to climb onto the roof of his house. Below him was a sea of water, and a city devoid of people. A helicopter, braving the rains, saw him and lowered a rope to carry him to safety. But the minister pushed away from the rope, shouting 'My God will save me! I do not need your help!'

The helicopter flew away, and the flood rose, carrying away the minister, drowning him dead.

The minister awoke to find himself in heaven, very confused. God stood before him, and the minister said 'God, I have served you my whole life, I put my trust in you to save me, and I still drowned.'

God in turn says 'Well, I sent you a rowboat, I sent you a motor boat, and I sent you a helicopter. What more did you want?"

Admittedly, I do gain quite a bit of inner peace by trusting in providence. However, I am also of the belief that God helps those who help themselves. If I cannot make rent one month, due to lack of enough money, I do not say "God will pay my rent". I get up, find a second job, or odd jobs, work with the landlord, or pawn something until I can make rent. God gave us free will for a reason. It is my belief that "the hand of God" is almost never used, but rather God acts in subtle motions, such as a rowboat during a flood, or a loaded gun within easy reach when one is being robbed. Does allowing the robber to violate my home further God's plan any more than shooting him dead? Perhaps God put him in my home, knowing I would shoot the intruder, because later that intruder would decide to slaughter a busload of children.

Originally posted by saint4God
Also, what good are posessions? Yeah they're fun to play with but when it comes down to it, are they in need of protection?


Possessions are much more than just an X-Box, or a set of collectable plates. Possessions include your home, which shelters your family. Various heirlooms, which tie the past to the present in a physical way. Wedding rings, engagement rings, memories of places or events we may never see again. Appliances with which we can prepare food to feed our families, books, tapes, DVDs with which to teach them. The computer, which may contain years worth of stories one has written, or all the family accounts with the funds with which we use to provide for them. There is nothing in the Bible that says one should not defend their home. The exact context of turn the other cheek is in reference to threats or attacks which do not violate our intrinsic right to life, or to provide for our family. For instance, you shouldn't shoot someone for calling you a name, and it's best not to stoop to their level. It does not mean, IMO, that one should sit idly by and allow some lawless bastage to violate you.

Originally posted by saint4God
Thanks! It does mean a lot, and you've thrown some real thinkers at me which is awesome at challenging my own beliefs. Now I have to think and pray about self-defense...

Very cool. The one thing I hope to accomplish, in any given day, is to get at least one person to think about something they wouldn't otherwise think about.

Originally posted by saint4God
You don't believe he sent his son to teach us and eventually die to give us a chance to redeem ourselves? How about any of the Old Testament? Just trying to relate where you're coming from.

I believe that there was once a man named Jesus, who was so convinced that he was the Son of God that he got others to believe it as well. Beyond that, I pretend to know nothing. Perhaps he was the Son of God, and perhaps he was just a very confused young man in the wrong place at the wrong time, thus I cannot debate if he was the Son. However, I can debate as to whether or not Jesus is the only way to achieve the "happy ending" after our life ends.