There will never be an Apocalypse

The height of Apocalyptic prophecy was just before and after the Messiah walked the earth. The book of Revelation was the chosen book for the canon but far from the only Apocalyptic prophecy. The Dead Sea Scrolls are teaming with Messianic and Apocalyptic prophecy from pseudo Isaiah to the Messiah of heaven and earth to the angels of Mastemoth and the most violent of prophecy was the War Scroll, a list and instruction manual for the Apocalypse that predicted an Israelite victory over the Kittim who are understood to be the Romans.

But this is what led to their demise. Believing that their god wanted them to rule the world. It cost them dearly in the form of the diaspora after the failed rebellion of AD 70. If they hadn't been so obsessed with destroying and conquering Rome and used more diplomatic methods the Romans could have struck a good deal and been happy with monetary tributes and maybe even removed the puppet king system, who knows?

But Revelation was a coded message disguised as Apocalyptic prophecy and few have decoded its message entirely. It was never truly about the end of the world but about revealing a message to the recipients of the letters and anyone who may be able to figure it out in the future is a bonus.

That's why for 2000 years everyone has believed that they live in the end times which is kind of insane. Some people look forward to it because they think they are going to be raptured while everyone who didn't accept Christ will be left to suffer the tribulation. And they still think after 2000 years that it's a part of God's plan to destroy the world he created or institute an age of terror and then peace or whatever these people believe, even though it has never happened and is never going to happen.

We will all be dead before the sun and the earth unless WE as a people destroy the planet. The only way to do that in an instant is by detonating are entire nuclear arsenal. The other way takes generations and involves abusing the planet. But God isn't going to make the prophecies in Revelation come true thousands of years after they were written when that was never their true purpose. The only true prophecy in Revelation is the destruction of Rome, which did not happen the way Revelation predicted and destruction of Rome was the fascination that led to the demise of Israel so that's a failed prophecy at best.

Live your life, love God, love your neighbors but don't hope for the horrible events in Revelation that could easily be used as an instruction manual for how to fool the people into thinking Armageddon has arrived and anything that comes true that is written in it could be a manipulated event. When you see flying dragons duking it out with angels then you can tell me I am wrong, until then, there is no Apocalypse or Armageddon, rapture or tribulation.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Will there be an apocalypse - yes i reckon so

will it happen in our life time - probably not.

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
But Revelation was a coded message disguised as Apocalyptic prophecy and few have decoded its message entirely. It was never truly about the end of the world but about revealing a message to the recipients of the letters and anyone who may be able to figure it out in the future.

The message was decoded here;
Revelation; Project complete

Pockyclipses happen all the time, in our day and age. In their day they don't know from air strikes… to them this is definitely apocalyptic…

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
But Revelation was a coded message disguised as Apocalyptic prophecy and few have decoded its message entirely. It was never truly about the end of the world but about revealing a message to the recipients of the letters and anyone who may be able to figure it out in the future.

The message was decoded here;
Revelation; Project complete

Thanks for this. I had forgotten your threads on the subject . Adding this to where I can go through them.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Many people claim to have decoded it, but I am skeptical of all of them because they don't prove anything. If it's so been decoded, enlighten this thread instead of directing traffic to your own thread, something I have noticed you do frequently.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze
There's too much material. It wouldn't fit in one post, and this thread would get swamped. Is that what you want?

a reply to: ElementalFreeze
Yet another account. Oy!

How sad is it that our species refuses to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves. Instead, we place that responsibility squarely on the shoulders of deities who are non-existent, or at best are not remotely definable by any stretch of our imagination, and certainly not by our many failed attempts to make "god" in our image with religion.

Religion has given us a reason to shirk responsibility for our actions as a species. It's everyone elses fault. "If everyone would just believe as we do, the world wouldn't be the way it is". The world is the way it is because far too many do believe the way you do. When we decide to put away our superstitions and fairy tales that have divided us for millennia, and act on our own behalf, we might have a chance of building a future our kids will laud us for.

Or we can just continue as we are, and at some point the apocalypsists(new word) will get what they've been praying for. A near ELE of our own doing that will satisfy the most hardened doomsdayers among us. That is, if the natural processes of the earth and/or universe doesn't do the job before we get the chance.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Um, ye, that was the point of me asking. I both want to see what you think the message is and if you're even in the ballpark. I anticipate a very typical consensus interpretation from evangelicals who wouldn't know how to interpret the esoteric if the fate of the world depended on it. You need a good lesson in apocalyptic prophetical history as well as old testament symbolism and a non fundamentalist mentality to properly interpret Revelation.

Fundamentalists just don't have the ability to see it from a man like John's perspective which is the key that unlocks the mystery. It's really a revelation and warning about a false prophet encoded and alluded to without saying outright.

The Satanic parts are the hardest to understand and even I have trouble with that si flood away I am very interested.

And glad you see the fallacy in obsession with the Apocalypse, a misnomer actually meaning unveling but the genre got increasingly violent and came to be associated with a final battle between good and evil.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze
You ask, you get. Just give me a period to get organised.

a reply to: intrptr

Not by the biblical definition. Acts of war don't equal end times wars in heaven, and Apocalypses don't have to be violent, a revelation is an apocalypse, which is why it's called the book of Revelation or the Apocalypse of John. His is violent, but not all.

a reply to: Klassified

So why is it the non believers like Mao Stalin and pol pot doing the most of the damage
Oh that's right, they were doing good weren't they

Somethings you say Klass are somewhat bizzare

If everyone believed as you do, enlighten me, what do you believe, what makes you so good, so wonderful
Don't you believe humans are cattle, what do you believe, what's wrong with exploiting the world, polluting it, modifying it, making money off of other people.
You have an atheist bible.

What do you believe, the WE you described
What

Whatever you like, no?

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Do you think that the eruption and destruction of Pompeii had anything to do with fueling the Apocalypse sensation at the time?

This was what befell. Numbers of huge men quite surpassing any human stature — such creatures, in fact, as the Giants are pictured to have been — appeared, now on the mountain, now in the surrounding country, and again in the cities, wandering over the earth day and night and also flitting through the air.

After this fearful droughts and sudden and violent earthquakes occurred, so that the whole plain round about p307seethed and the summits leaped into the air. There were frequent rumblings, some of them subterranean, that resembled thunder, and some on the surface, that sounded like bellowings; the sea also joined in the roar and the sky re-echoed it.

Then suddenly a portentous crash was heard, as if the mountains were tumbling in ruins; and first huge stones were hurled aloft, rising as high as the very summits, then came a great quantity of fire and endless smoke, so that the whole atmosphere was obscured and the sun was entirely hidden, as if eclipsed.

Thus day was turned into night and light into darkness. Some thought that the Giants were rising again in revolt (for at this time also many of their forms could be discerned in the smoke and, moreover, a sound as of trumpets was heard), while others believed that the whole universe was being resolved into chaos or fire.

CASSIUS DIO ROMAN HISTORY

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
a reply to: intrptr

Not by the biblical definition. Acts of war don't equal end times wars in heaven, and Apocalypses don't have to be violent, a revelation is an apocalypse, which is why it's called the book of Revelation or the Apocalypse of John. His is violent, but not all.

I think the apocrypha translated means 'to be revealed'. In other words something about sealing up the meaning till the end times. My problem with todays interpretation is the one big thing apocalypse everyone is being told to wait for, overlooking all the smaller ones along the way. Meanwhile the world has reeled to total destruction of nations, governments, hundreds of millions of lives and even entire cities and we all look away, awaiting for an ever big, bigger, biggest one.

The end times is a period of time or times when such destruction as the world has never seen will be unleashed, meaning the end of those that are affected. Like now. Modern aggressive war has never been seen before in all of history. Like that destruction of that Afghan village. For them, that was their apocalypse.

Telling everyone the big one hasn't come yet so relax is how they make all the smaller ones alright in our minds.

Go about your business, this did not happen, this isn't it.

a reply to: Raggedyman

So why is it the non believers like Mao Stalin and pol pot doing the most of the damage

Look up the past 1000 responses from atheists to that tired argument. No one, especially not me, thinks the world would be better off with psychotics like those two, and others running the world. Don't get me started on the religious psychotics, like Hitler.

Somethings you say Klass are somewhat bizzare.

Thanks.

If everyone believed as you do, enlighten me, what do you believe, what makes you so good, so wonderful.

Re-read it. Obviously you missed it. Hint: quotations " ".

Religion has given us a reason to shirk responsibility for our actions as a species. It's everyone elses fault. "If everyone would just believe as we do, the world wouldn't be the way it is."

Spoken from the perspective of the many who have said just that.

Don't you believe humans are cattle, what do you believe, what's wrong with exploiting the world, polluting it, modifying it, making money off of other people. You have an atheist bible.

Religion has dominated this planet for thousands of years. Yet it has solved none of the issues you mention. Why is that? What is the definition of insanity again?

What do you believe, the WE you described What

See above.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

The end has not come as all the things in the bible are not completely done. No, it is not meant for humans to understand the actual end. No man can predict the end of the world, only God knows. He has fulfilled half the promises Jesus has spoken of, but not completely all. No, the bible is not a code or a guide book. It is meant for the Jews and only to them. The things Jesus said are merely to throw off people and make them think they almost have it, when they have touched any points.

Tribulation will come, and will fullfill Revelations acts.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Methinks you're complaining too soon. The evidence against your argument.

Luke 21

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Verse 24 combined with the history of Jerusalem for the past 2000 years implies that there was to be 2 destructions in Jerusalem. The 2nd has yet to happen. And it could be argued that the times of the Gentiles is not over yet. Though Jerusalem did come under Jewish control in 1967.

And you could combine that with this from Matthew.
Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

It wasn't possible for the "gospel of the kingdom" to get to all the world until the advent of modern technology. And combined with verse 15 he is clearly predicting that the abomination of desolation occurs after the event of verse 14.
It's still a future predicted event.

And here is one more detail to consider here. The curse of Malachi.
Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

If John the Baptist was the "Elijah" of Malachi 4 then because of his death at the hands of Herod this curse got triggered. BTW according to the full story Herod killed him at the request of Salome and her mother. The daughter and granddaughter of Caiaphas the High Priest. And if Caiaphas also had a hand in killing John the Baptist well, ooowww. No wonder their God threw the book at them.

Looking it over I discovered something terrible in the book of Hosea. A declaration of a very long terrible Leviticus 26 curse. Here's the verses.
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

According to the prophesy the Jews and Israelites were to face a 2000 year curse. And if you look at the history of the past 2000 years it appears that they have been serving their punishment.

My best guess is the curse ends no later than May 15 2028. So hang onto your hats. It looks like it could be a very bumpy ride.

a reply to: ntech

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Didn't that already happen in 69-70 AD?

IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD


The OP has asked me to share in this thread some of my interpretation of Revelation, which I gladly do.
The page will be cut short by the character limit, but the rest can be found via the Index Thread linked in my first post.

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch4, where John finds himself taken up to God's throne-room in heaven.

I'm going to be asking the question; what kind of God is John meeting here?

The teaching about God in this chapter comes mainly from the imagery.
The central premise of the vision is that John stands in the presence of God.
The details that say so are echoes of similar meetings in the Old Testament.
They include the meeting with the "seventy elders of Israel" at Sinai- asociated with the Covenant between God and his people (it comes immediately after the Covenant-sacrifice)- Exodus ch24 vv9-11
They include Isaiah's Temple-vision- associated with the sins of God's people- Isaiah ch6 vv1-5
They include the first vision of Ezekiel- associated with the oppression of God's people by the oppression of Babylon- Ezekiel ch1.

Thus at the beginning of Ezekiel the prophet sees the heavens "opened" before the glory of the Lord comes down to him.
Similarly John sees "an open door" in heaven- then hears the invitation to "come up" where God is.

The first thing he sees is a throne, "with one seated on the throne" (out of reverence, he doesn't name "the one seated on the throne" more exactly).
Which indicates, of course, that he's facing a ruler.

Around the throne is a rainbow. At the time of the Genesis flood, God promised not to flood the world again, and offered the rainbow as a symbol of the promise.
So this indicates the protective aspect of God- a God who sustains the world as well as ruling it.

Next he sees another version of the "elders of Israel", the representatives of God's people.
They're wearing white garments, as a symbol of redemption from sin.
They're wearing golden crowns, and sitting on thrones of their own, which identifies them as kings.
As the people in John's time would have known, permission to sit in the king's presence is a great honour and privilege in itself;
"What is man that thou art mindful of him?..
Thou hast made him little less than God,
And dost crown him with glory and honour"- Psalm 8 vv4-5

The "seventy elders" of Sinai were a symbolic number- "seven", the number of God, multiplied by "ten", the number of completeness.
What about the elders in this vision?
The number "twenty-four" is sometimes taken as "twelve for Israel, twelve for the Church". My problem with that interpretation is that I see the Church- and I think the New Testament sees the Church- as a continuation of Israel rather than as a new body. In which case a single "twelve" should be enough to identify the whole body of God's people.
An alternative suggestion, which I like better, is to match the number with the twenty-four priestly familes of the tribe of Levi. In other words, it identifies the elders as a priesthood.

If they're wearing the white garments of redemption and acting as both kings and priests, then this makes them the visual expression of their own song in the next chapter;
"Thou dost ransom men for God..,
And hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God".

So this part of the vision is telling us that this God has a Covenant relationship with a people within the world, and the closeness to the throne shows just how important that is.

Thunder and lightning and voices are coming from the throne, another echo of the Covenant-making of Sinai.
They express God's intention to impose his will.
This may become "wrath", but the wrath is already limited by the protective aspect of God (implied by the rainbow), and by his Covenant relationship (implied by the presence of the elders), which hold him back from total destruction.

Seven torches of fire "which are the seven spirits of God" are burning in front of the throne.
But the number "seven" in Revelation is really a label meaning "belonging to God".
So the "seven spirits" are the seven-fold Spirit, or the Spirit "belonging to God"- that is, the Holy Spirit.
All the way through the Bible, the Spirit of God acts with power (one way or another) in his relationship with humanity.
So this relationship is still dominating the first half of the chapter.

The space in front of the throne is covered by "a sea of glass, like crystal".
This represents the firmament.
It was part of the symbolism of the meetings with Ezekiel and with the elders at Sinai that God showed himself standing on a kind of "portable" firmament.
John has now been caught up (in vision) to the real thing, to that place where God looks down upon the earth.

In Ezekiel's vision, there were four "creatures", coming from the midst of the fire under God's throne. They had the faces of four living things, and they were accompanied by wheels which were "full of eyes round about".
Now John sees four similar creatures, "full of eyes in front and behind", which have the same four faces (one each, this time). He sees them, according to the Greek text, "in the middle of the throne". This sounds like an odd place for them to be, and some translations evade the phrase. Perhaps the best answer is to see them, as in Ezekiel, in the middle of the space underneath the throne.

What do these four creature represent, what is their function?
One way to find an answer is by looking at those faces.
It's been observed that each of those four living things has a kind of supremacy in its own sphere.
Thus the eagle can claim supremacy amongst the birds of the air (and it was "on eagles' wings" that God brought Israel out of Egypt- Exodus ch19 v4).
The lion can claim supremacy amongst the wild beasts of the land (and "the lion of the tribe of Judah" appears in the next chapter).
The ox can claim supremacy amongst domesticated animals (and "horns" are a symbol of power all the way through the Old Testament).
While humanity, by God's decree in Genesis, was given supremacy amongst all of them.

Perhaps they represent the living world at large, in the same way that the elders represent God's people.

Alternatively (or at the same time), they have been taken to represent "the four winds".
It certainly seems plausible that the four winds should come from God's throne in heaven and remain close to it.
The four winds have been associated with the judgements of God in more than one prophecy.
God threatens to send "the four winds of heaven" to scatter Elam - Jeremiah ch49 v36
The four chariots of Zechariah ch6, with their attendant horses, are "sent forth to the four winds of heaven".
When "the four winds of the earth" are placed under restraint in ch7 of this book, this indicates the interruption of the judgements of God, which had been running all the way through ch6 in the shape of the "four horsemen".
And the four living creatures of this chapter are tied in to that "winds-of-judgement" theme, by the fact that each of them will be summoning forth one of the "four horsemen"

Perhaps we can combine the two meanings together, and associate them with God's relationship with the natural world at large.

Finally, we learn about God from the statements in the praise of both groups.
The praise is unceasing.
Just as the elders are unceasingly offering their royal authority back to God (this is later parodied by the submission of the "ten kings" to the Beast).

The living creatures focus on what God is in himself.
They say "Ho

THE LAMB AND THE SCROLL

The OP has asked me to share in this thread some of my interpretation of Revelation, which I gladly do.
The page will be put short by the character limit, but the rest can be found via the Index Thread linked in my first post.

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch5, which describes a new event in Eternity.

In the previous chapter, John was taken up to heaven, and the scene he found there was full of unceasing praise.
But now something happens in heaven; there is a scroll to be opened.

In connection with that event, I'm going to be asking the question; why must the Lamb open the scroll?

The scroll belongs to "the one seated on the throne", who's holding it in his hand.
It's clearly full of detailed information, written on both sides.
But the scroll has been sealed- with seven seals, which means that God placed them there himself.
And the annnouncement is made that somebody must be found to open it.

This brings up a preliminary question; what is meant by "the opening of the scroll"?
The explanation comes in the next chapter, where we see it happening.
The seals are broken one by one.
And each time a seal is broken, something happens.
In the case of the first four seals, what happens is that one of the four "living creatures" from ch4 summons out one of the "four horsemen", and they begin roaming across the world.
The implication is that the detailed scroll doesn't contain the description of these events.
It contains the events themselves.
Each time a seal is broken, the scroll can be unrolled a little further.
Each time the scroll is unrolled a little further, one more event is "released" into the world.

I think we have to imagine that the seals were fixed on to the scroll, stage by stage, as the scroll was being rolled up.
The key point would be the location of the seal.
The wax would have to be applied over the edge of the parchment, holding the rolled portion together like a paperclip.
Because that would be the purpose of the seal, to prevent the scroll from being unrolled beyond that point.
Then a further section would be rolled, another seal would be applied, and so on, until the final seal held the complete roll together.
Then the breaking of the seals (in reverse order) would give the effect just described. Each broken seal would give access to the next section of the scroll, and only the next section, until the unrolling was complete.

But none of these things can happen if the seals cannot be broken.
When the first announcement was made, it seemed that nobody could be found, either "in heaven or on earth or under the earth". Not in the created universe, then.
John then wept bitterly

But why does it matter?
Why must the scroll be opened at all?
The immediate answer relates to John's concern about the persecuted state of the church, implied in the first chapter.
The events of ch6, locked up in the scroll, are to be God's response to that, the expression of his wrath against the persecutors.

But that's only the start.
The breaking of the seven seals leads to the seventh seal.
The seventh seal contains the seven trumpets.
The sounding of the seven trumpets leads to the seventh trumpet.
The seventh trumpet contains the seven vials.
The pouring of the seven vials leads to the seventh vial.
And the seventh vial opens up the events which destroy the power of evil and bring forward the arrival of the new Jerusalem.
Anything which obstructs this outcome is a good cause for weeping.

One of the elders then tells John that the problem has been solved.
"The lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David" has conquered.
Obviously this points us towards Jesus.
We find him standing among the elders, the representatives of his people.
But he doesn't appear in the form of a lion.
Nor does he appear in the form of "one like a son of man", as he appeared in the first chapter.
Instead he appears in the form of a Lamb.
Evidently alive, but "standing as though it had been slain".
Risen from the dead, then.
We can see that the Lamb holds "the power that belongs to God"- that's the meaning of the seven horns.
We can see that the Lamb holds "the Spirit that belongs to God" (ie the Holy Spirit)- that's the meaning of "the seven eyes, which are the seven spirits".
This is the Lamb who is able to go to "the one who sits upon the throne" and take the scroll from him.

How can the Lamb do what nobody else can do?
The elders and the living creatures say that he is "worthy"- AXIOS.
The root of this word carries the sense, amongst other things, that something "has weight".
It can be translated as "meet" or "befitting".
This is not just about power, but about moral authority.

They say that he's worthy because he died, and because his death ransomed men for God.
We know this from John's gospel- "The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world".
But how does that give him the power to break the seals and open the scroll?
The answer must be that "the sin of the world" is the reason why the seals are there.
In which case, victory over sin would give him the power to break them.
The two things must go together, be
cause the final outcome of opening the scroll is renewed access to Life-
And we know from the story of Eden that sin was the obstruction to Life.
When the Lamb has overcome sin, therefore, he is able to break that obstruction (symbolised by the sealing of the scroll) and set these events in motion.
This includes, of course, the destruction of the power of the Beast.
Since if the Lamb can overcome sin-and-death, which is the ultimate enemy of the human race, dealing with merely human persecutors becomes a comparatively trivial matter.

The rest of the chapter, therefore, is filled with his praise.
"the prayers of the saints" are offered, relating to what he is about to do.
The living creatures and the elders fall down in front of him.
They are joined by "many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands".
These are then joined by "every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea".
In short, there's an explosion of joy and praise beginning around the throne and spreading out to fill the totality of the universe.
So it is the Atonement itself which is the real "new event" in the history of Eternity.
The opening of the scroll is simply the side-effect.

To sum up.
My opening question was deliberately ambiguous, and could be read in two different ways;
"Why must the scroll be opened at all?"
Because the opening of the scroll sets in motion the fulfilment of the promise of Life.
"Why must the Lamb be the one who opens it?"
Because the promise of Life could only be fulfilled by his death and resurrection.
The message of this chapter is that the Atonement is the real driving force of the events of Revelation.
Which means that Revelation cannot be separated from the structure of Christian teaching.