Sons of God vs sons of Israel, Masoretic vs Greek and Dead Sea Scrolls

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Your trying to tell me that the whole Tanakh was memorized from oral tradition and that the Masoretes wrote it down from memory? And that the only notable mistake was changing God to Israel?

I would hate myself if I believed that load of nonsense. It's not even close to true or believable.

Obviously, the Masoretic scribes got a hold of either a Greek(most likely) or even a Vulgate, although that is less likely it is possible.

But what your're saying is a mystical belief only believed by mystics, I am not a mystic. It's a fantastic notion, but not a believable one. Oral tradition was always extra biblical/Tanakh and the Tanakh was always written, not oral. Oral tradition is what gives us the Talmud and Midrash and Zohar. But nobody has a written copy to verify that was the tradition in the past like we do with the OT. So the fact that it so precisely, with a few exceptions, resembles the Greek and Latin is proof that it is a translation.

Why is that so hard to believe? Muslims memorize the Quran all the time. Its just a matter of preserving the tradition.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Oh man you sure bounce back quick and with the sameol stuff once again.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

but the preserved words of God preserve the verse quite differently, why not accept it as true

Deut 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

a reply to: combatmaster

no he is relying on the way others have interpreted it via his youtube gurus.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

what!?

You have posted these same topics over a hundred threads both yours and others and you have been banned so many times we cant even count them on our feet and hands.

Grow up and go away

you are a deceiver with all your false ATS user accounts.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Muslims memorize the Quran by reading it over and over, nothing mystical about that.

But to precisely memorize oral tradition, (which is again different from the Tanakh) or more specifically the Tanakh FROM oral recitation from centuries and centuries to the point that it is almost identical (with exceptions probably intentional) with the Greek manuscripts is a whole different story and impossible.

The comparison between Muslims memorizing the Quran which has a lot less words and is memorized from the natural process of reading it everyday with the mystical scenario of oral preservation over centuries is not valid, imo, because it is impossible to believe (for me) that the whole Masoretic text was written down from memory. It's too close to the text it was obviously tranlated from.

And if the Tanakh had been memorized all those centuries it would have been written down sooner. The Tanakh has always been written tradition and completely outside the need of being under oral tradition as it's not a secret.

Oral tradition was oral because it either was controversial or not contained in the Tanakh and was just tradition lije Og king of Bashan hanging on to Noah's ark until the flood was over or the succubus Lilith, Adams first wife.

And sometimes things like the Zohar are called oral tradition because people want to convince people it was communicated to Moses and they call it "oral tradition" to give it legitimacy when everyone knows it was written sometime in the AD milleniums, most likely by a Sephardic Rabbi.

And the Kabbalists themselves are under no illusions that the tradition comes from Moses, it's just something they say to enhance the myth.

So my point is, that story you are telling is a myth and not believed by Jews today. It's just a myth to give them national pride.

But it isn't hurting anyone so if you want to believe it, it's cool with me.

I have some crazy beliefs myself.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

So you can only memorize something if you read it? Not everyone has such limited memory capacity. I have a friend who has seen The Matrix so many times that he can recite every single line from memory.

You underestimate the power of tradition and recitation.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

There is a good reason to read it as sons of God but probably not for the reasons the OP would like to promote . Here is a pdf on the subject ...Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God www.thedivinecouncil.com...

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Yes, your friend memorized the matrix because he SAW and Heard it, because it exists for him to see.

But that is far different than memorizing the entire contents of the Tanakh and passing it along orally for centuries and then one day deciding "lets write down what was supposed to be in writing for the past hundreds of years."

One person memorizing the entire bible is amazing and unlikely, but generations of people passing along the Tanakh orally from memory has nothing to do with mental capacity. It is a legend.

The Masoretic texts are translations of previously existing texts, Greek or Latin but I am pretty sure it was from the Greek.

It's silly to think that it was written down from memory. But if you want to compare it to memorizing a crappy movie that's where you enter absurdity.

In case you didn't know, the Talmud replaced the Tanakh as the superior scripture of the Jews and the Tanakh is like neophyte Judaism.

But like I said, your belief in the legend of the Masoretic texts isn't hurting anyone so I don't really care. It just isn't plausible and I can't understand why you are so adamant about it.

The point of this thread is that they changed the word God to Israel to hide the polytheism of ancient Israel. This is a fact, and facts can be denied but they are still facts.

One only needs to utilize common sense to see what those without (common sense) refuse to believe. Some CHOOSE to believe that it has a valid explanation that is not dubious.

Common sense says that it is called editing and was deliberate.

A comparison of the different translations is all the evidence I need to draw a conclusion which is monotheism back edited the bible to obscure passages that prove Yahweh is not God, just god of Israel. El was the Most High and Israel once believed Yahweh was his son.

Israel has worshipped other gods in the bible so many times that they had to make those gods "Idols" which is usually a description of an object and not a god.

Baal, Marduk, Ishtar, Asherah and El as well as Leviathan/Tiamat were all very real to ancient Israel. Modern translations are not fans of this fact.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: the2ofusr1

but the preserved words of God preserve the verse quite differently, why not accept it as true

Deut 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Why not accept it as true you ask?

It's the preserved word of God?

But the oldest Hebrew and Greek say Sons of God and angels of God respectively.

So the reason to not believe the KJV, asidr from common sense, is that it has the wrong word. Israel is not a synonym for God and you are relying on the LEAST ancient text.

I rely on the MOST ancient AND MOST common. It's called logic.

2 vs 1

Old vs new

Corrupt vs honest

Sorry, the KJV is a loser. Any modern translations that don't use the DSS are second class at best.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: combatmaster

no he is relying on the way others have interpreted it via his youtube gurus.

If you're talking about me, I don't go on YouTube ever and I do my own interpretations and don't have any gurus. I am not a follower or conformist and have little interest in pop culture and the opinions of YouTube gurus, I've never even heard the term.

I don't belong to any organizations or creeds and I don't operate based on the opinions of anyone unless otherwise noted. In this instance, all interpretations are my own.

Are you a Christian? If so, you are a very bitter one who enjoys insulting people. That's not exactly how Christians I know act. I disagree with Christians all the time without getting into arguments or being insulted.

You strike me as a wolf in sheeps clothing type, talking the talk but not walking the walk.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

One person memorizing the entire bible is amazing and unlikely,

I knew one older brother that if you read a piece of scripture to him he could tell you what the verse was from .Chapter and verse to be exact .

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Sorry, the KJV is a loser. Any modern translations that don't use the DSS are second class at best.

To be fair ,most versions carry the basic story from beginning to end .Some versions do a better job at some verses and some not so much .They seem to all suffer this but the Gospel is there in them all . The Deut. 32:8 issue is one that only helps restrict the bigger picture of replacement theology .Originally it was supported to be Gods chosen people Israel but they rejected their King and so God turned back to the Nations to take out of them a special people to replace the sons of God in His Kingdom ,which is not of this earth . Its all part of the divine council and the principalities and powers that we and God are in battle with .

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

One person memorizing the entire bible is amazing and unlikely, but generations of people passing along the Tanakh orally from memory has nothing to do with mental capacity. It is a legend

The Torah is metered text. It has a rhythm and is ideal for memorization. Its not impossible or unlikely that a group of rabbis got together and recodified the poetry that they learned. This is poetry that is meant to be chanted. They would have known the exact number of syllables per paragraph and the patterns they formed in the text.

I spend my free time studying the syllable metering. It is unique to the Hebrew OT and Greek NT. You arguments are unounded.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am guessing that what you are saying id correct as I am way below a pay grade to say what you said . It would also suggest that some of the editing that either Ezra OT or John NT performed to give us out Cannon has its tell tale signs . I am thinking the 2 Isaiah's issues or the Mark issue of the extended text . Have you ever looked into this ?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I told you I don't believe it but am o.k. if you do. I don't find it believable and that isn't going to change.

They would have written it down if they had it commited to memory and nothing you say will convince me otherwise. It was a written tradition and would have been written if it was known by heart.

You will now say they had to keep it oral to keep it secret from their enemies. To that I say not every land that took in the Jews was hostile or officially banned Judaism so someone in say Spain would have been safe keeping a Tanakh at home and in the synagogue.

But the point is that they changed a word and that word was God. And they replaced God with Israel. I say they symbolically made Israel God with the stroke of a pen. Symbolism is what I am saying is going on, it isn't as innocent as you want it to be. It's a fascinating idea when you think about it, not only did they make their own god into God Most High but they made Israel take the place of this God, by replacing the word God with Israel, Israel takes God's place. Symbolism is the key to it, the bible is an esoteric extravaganza and Israel God's chosen people because the Bible says so.

So the New Testament was created to take the chosen ones status from the Jews which led to the Talmud and Zionism and everything in between.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I haven't checked Ezra, but there are small bits and pieces in Matt 24&25, Revelation 1, and everything after Mark 16:8, that do not belong in the scriptures. So there has been some tampering, but it sticks out like a sore thumb. I can tell you that Isaiah 52 and 53 are complete.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Dr. Earnest L Martin although passed on to the Lord has left a ministry that is well worth checking out www.askelm.com... In the drop down you can access some of his work that is both text as well as mp3 files on the different subjects he bring up .Things like the True Temple's location or the Original Bible and other great subjects . He shows how Ezra was tasked with the OT cannon while John with the new .A very interesting read and answered some of the varying issues we see scholars divided on ....worth checking out .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Thanks, I'll check it out.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Many deny Israel has any more role in the world when it comes to God's plan for them.

The earth is divided by the number of the tribes of Israel because the world shall one day be ruled by them from Jerusalem with Christ Jesus on the throne.

The body of Christ is a whole different entity.

change Duet you can replace Israel.