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Sons of God vs sons of Israel, Masoretic vs Greek and Dead Sea Scrolls

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posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 11:30 AM
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Deuteronomy 32:8-9 KJV

When the Most High divided the to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.9. For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

That's based off the Masoretic texts which are new compared to the Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls even the Vulgate. Around 1000-1200 A.D. I think. But a Catholic bible that uses the Greek, Deads Sea Scrolls AND the Masoretic to determine the most accurate translation reads:

32:8-9

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
When he divided the sons of men, he fixed their bounds according to the number of the Sons of God;
but Yahweh's portion was his people,
Jacob his share of the inheritance.

So the Greek and DSS say Sons of God, actually angels in the Greek and Sons in the DSS. But the translation Sons appears to be the most accurate, as the legend of El(El Elyon, God Most High) goes he and Asherah had 70 Sons and each was given a nation and according to the ancient scriptures Yahweh was one of the Sons and his share of the inheritance was Israel. El Elyon or God Most High was the Father of Yahweh, at least in the belief system of the ancients and the author of Deuteronomy.

But the Masoretic texts changing it to sons of Israel or children of Israel is not a small issue. Replacing God with Israel and altering the meaning of the passage to make ancient Israel monotheistic is deceptive to say the least. Let's look at the good news Bible"

32:8-9

The Most High assigned nations to their lands;
he determined where people should live.
He assigned each nation to a heavanly being,
but Jacob's descendants he chose for himself.

That one doesn't have sons of Israel because it's modern and everybody knows the Masoretic is wrong but to hide the belief of Israel that El was the Most High they remove the word inheritance and arrange the wording so it looks like the Lord chose Israel for himself instead of receiving it from El.

Back to the Masoretic, why would the Most High set the bounds of the people(the amount of nations) according to the number of the sons of Israel? That's a lot of nations. 70 is the traditional number of nations set by El at Babel traditionally and 72 is the total number when you include El and Asherah. 72 and 70 are common and important in Judaism. But it makes no sense that God fixed the nations according to the number of the sons of Israel, only Sons of God makes sense and is correct.

Sons of Israel was deliberate deception to hide the fact that ancient Israel believed in more than one god and just worshipped Yahweh while acknowledging thatother God's exist.

I would like to know, as a side note, when this event occured. The tower of Babel makes sense if not for the fact that Jacob had not yet been born and I guess it's possible that Israel was used by the author to describe proto-Israel, whatever that was and is talking about Babel. Probably.

But does anyone have any conspiracy theories about why God was changed to Israel other than my to hide the polytheism/henotheism of ancient Israel?




posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 11:56 AM
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An in depth explanation that expounds upon what I have touched on in depth and I recommend reading it if you are into biblical history that is actually true.

Y ahwehisaSonofElElyon



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

This is interesting, however time and again in the old testament it talks about king's whom fell away from Yahway by worshipping Asher and erecting alters in the high places, the bible itself say's these were Canaanite tradition's and not Isrealite Tradition's.

Part of the confusion is that El which means God was misconstrued to mean Ya which also mean's god while the PRINCE over the nation of Isreal is not Yahwey whom is the ONLY god but the Archangel Michael.

Jesus said you can only come to the FATHER through him, he whom see's him see's the Father but of course you need a pure heart for that, you may see Jesus the Saviour or Jesus the Judge but only with a pure heart will you see God.

Moshe was given the Tablet's of the ten commandment's and of course chief among them is one simple commandment.

THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD'S BEFORE ME, there is only one true god.
God is one God but has multiple facet's, the seven spirit's before his throne, the trinity etc but they draw there essence from him, there is only one God one father one king.
edit on 10-4-2016 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 01:36 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

No, before Moses the name Yahweh was not known. Israel worshipped El, the Canaanite God and Yahweh was originally a Son of El. Editing was done to erase the fact that Israel was not a Monotheistic nation. But all throughout the Bible there is proof, even in the ten commandments. "You shall have no other gods before me." Is Yahweh telling the Israelites to not worship the gods of the other nations. He tells them to destroy everything associated with other gods because he id "a jealous god"

Jealous of what? If there were no other gods, no reason to be jealous. If Yahweh was truly the creator and high God of the Universe what does he have to be jealous about?

Omnipotence would give Yahweh the ability to destroy the gods that made him jealous. It would also give him the power to not be jealous, a human emotion that is caused by chemical reactions in the brain. Omnipotence eliminates the need to ever feel jealous. Yahweh having emotions and behaving like a psychopath over small infractions and his constant terrorism even bragging about being the source of good and evil show that he is more like a demon child of God than a being worthy of worship.

I'm sorry but El is a Canaanite God that Israel worshipped while in Canaan and Yahweh is a late edit done to give Israel its own god and he became through editorial deception considered to be one and the same. I think that is obvious.

Your comment was a bunch of religious beating around the bush. I'm sorry but I'm looking for historical perspective on why the Masoretic texts were corrupted and the English translations further corrupt.



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 01:41 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

I already explained it to you and you ridiculed me for it.

The Children of Israel are numbered like the grains of sand, like the stars in the sky.

Adam was created from the sand.

The angels are called the Morning Stars.

In Revelation 2, the believer who overcomes will be called the Morning Star.

So Israel was called out to replace the group of Angels that fell. Therefore the LXX offers an explanatory translation to what the Original Hebrew Text says. The world was divided by the number of the Children of Israel, which was supposed to be congruent with the number of Fallen Sons of Elohim.
edit on 10-4-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: added point

edit on 10-4-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 01:56 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You and I have never spoken, and I don't need anything explained to me I am just interested in hearing the terrible excuses people come up with for the obvious deception.


(post by ElementalFreeze removed for a manners violation)

posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 02:02 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

This text was copied, edited by different groups of Jews between the 7th and 10th centuries... I suppose It can depend on the translations.

The Death of Jesus was the death of the Second Temple period(starting 530 BC) the Tanakh and Jesus is the New religion... A real Jew should worship Jesus because Christianity is the Son of Judaism.

The Talmud was rejected by the Essenes and the Torah was ignored by the Sadducees and the Pharisees and this is why the Torah is a book that only bares witness to the crime of killing the prophets Messiah.

Jews who worship Torah don't understand that the book is irrelevant and that Christianity is the correct hybrid.



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 03:45 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze




But does anyone have any conspiracy theories about why God was changed to Israel other than my to hide the polytheism/henotheism of ancient Israel?
In short ,it was a PR job . They (Judaism) were loosing people to Christianity .It would probably show that there were a few other small but big changes made with the new MT .Back prior to the new MT Judaism also had a concept of the 2 powers in the God head so even that got changed and declared it to be heretical for a good Jew to think that way . At the time of the new testament it was not a large step to think of the God head as a trinity with the Father ,Son ,and Holy Sprite . I will also add a link to 2 pieces that delve into 2nd Temple literature with the world view in the ME at that time .



My Paper Accepted for the 2016 SWCRS Entitled, “A Neglected Deuteronomic Scriptural Matrix to the Nature of the Resurrection Body in 1 Cor 15:39-42?”
www.dburnett.com...

and this one is a podcast with the author being interviewed by Dr. Micheal Heiser www.nakedbiblepodcast.com... This interview is a very important one imo as it brings to light how Paul and the others were considering contextual parts or the old in the new with the Resurrection having manifested in their eyes .



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 03:52 PM
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a reply to: Hex1an

I read that the Masoretes who translated it from the Greek (Septuagint only refers to the first 5 books) were shocked to learn that Yahweh was not the Most High and was a Son of El and decided to change the word God to Israel so no mention of Sons of God was made thereby eliminating the possibility of Yahweh being a Son of El.

Follow the translation from the DSS to the different english versions today and you will see that most hide one way or the other, only Catholic bibles translate it right (that I have read) and the NIV KJV and all the evangelical favored bibles have cleverly reworded it or say sons of Israel.

It's rather obvious.



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze


CEB
When God Most High divided up the nations— when he divided up humankind— he decided the people’s boundaries based on the number of the gods.

CEV
that God Most High gave land to every nation. He assigned a guardian angel to each of them,

ERV
God Most High separated the people on earth and gave each nation its land. He set up borders for all people. He made as many nations as there are angels.

ESV
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

ESVUK
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

GNT
The Most High assigned nations their lands; he determined where peoples should live. He assigned to each nation a heavenly being,

ISV
When the Most High gave nations as their inheritance, when he separated the human race, he set boundaries for the people according to the number of the children of God.

TLB
When God divided up the world among the nations, He gave each of them a supervising angel!

MSG
When the High God gave the nations their stake, gave them their place on Earth, He put each of the peoples within boundaries under the care of divine guardians. But God himself took charge of his people, took Jacob on as his personal concern.

NABRE
When the Most High allotted each nation its heritage, when he separated out human beings, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the divine beings;

NET
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided up humankind, he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the heavenly assembly.

NIRV
The Most High God gave the nations their lands. He divided up the human race. He set up borders for the nations. He did it based on the number of the angels in his heavenly court.

NLT
When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court.

NRSV
When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods;

NRSVA
When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods;
NRSVACE
When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods;
NRSVCE
When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods;

RSV
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
RSVCE
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
TLV
When Elyon gave nations their heritage, when He separated the sons of man, He set boundaries for the people by the number of Bnei-Yisrael.
VOICE
When God, the Most High in heaven gave all the nations their inherited territory, when He divided the descendants of Adam into nations, When He established the boundaries of the peoples, as the number of the sons of God,

WYC
When the highest parted folks, when he separated the sons of Adam, he ordained the terms of peoples by the number of the sons of Israel. (When the Most HighGod divided the nations, when he separated the sons of man, he ordained the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.)

link to above www.biblegateway.com...:8



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 04:24 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

Im baffled... you base everything on the way you interpret greek or masortic etc.

But wouldnt it be more authentic to look at the original format - biblical hebrew?

some concepts/notions lose their meaning in translation.

so that being said.... you should've at least included the original script (in hebrew) too. i wouldve just read that without any fallacies!



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

The Masoretes did not translate the LXX back into Hebrew. The Masoretes transcribed the original Hebrew text from the memorized oral tradition.



posted on Apr, 10 2016 @ 05:56 PM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

There are a lot of people who share your same tendencies and debate tactics then. You're not fooling anyone, I'm not sure why you keep trying. Why do you insist on creating account after account only to post the same things and have them banned time after time? I don't understand your obsession with this place, I would have given up by now.

I agree with your sentiment that there is something off with the bible but your constant name swapping and lying about it have become annoying. You really do need to find a hobby my friend.



posted on Apr, 11 2016 @ 03:32 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Your trying to tell me that the whole Tanakh was memorized from oral tradition and that the Masoretes wrote it down from memory? And that the only notable mistake was changing God to Israel?

I would hate myself if I believed that load of nonsense. It's not even close to true or believable.

Obviously, the Masoretic scribes got a hold of either a Greek(most likely) or even a Vulgate, although that is less likely it is possible.

But what your're saying is a mystical belief only believed by mystics, I am not a mystic. It's a fantastic notion, but not a believable one. Oral tradition was always extra biblical/Tanakh and the Tanakh was always written, not oral. Oral tradition is what gives us the Talmud and Midrash and Zohar. But nobody has a written copy to verify that was the tradition in the past like we do with the OT. So the fact that it so precisely, with a few exceptions, resembles the Greek and Latin is proof that it is a translation.


(post by ElementalFreeze removed for a manners violation)

posted on Apr, 11 2016 @ 03:45 AM
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originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: ElementalFreezeu

Im baffled... you base everything on the way you interpret greek or masortic etc.

But wouldnt it be more authentic to look at the original format - biblical hebrew?

some concepts/notions lose their meaning in translation.

so that being said.... you should've at least included the original script (in hebrew) too. i wouldve just read that without any fallacies!


You aren't paying attention. If you go back and read my OP you will clearly the Catholic translation that I favor is based off the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Greek with occasional Masoretic reference. The Dead Sea Scrolls are as original Hebrew as it gets.

I also pointed out that the Greek says the equivalent of "angels of God" and the Dead Sea Scrolls say "Sons of God." I said it seems that the correct translation is "Sons of God" which is the DSS rendering. So how is it that I base everything off how I Interpret the Masoretic and Greek when it's evident that I favor the DSS and the Greek second and place the Masoretic in dead last?

Kind of puts a hole in your allegation that I base everything off Greek and Masoretic and don't consider the Hebrew. So if you're baffled try paying attention more. Not trying to be rude but you clearly just commented on what you thought without considering what I actually said.
edit on 11-4-2016 by ElementalFreeze because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2016 @ 04:57 AM
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a reply to: Now Padawan ElementalFreeze

Padawan your back with a new account.

And this is the exact same thread you made in the religion, faith, and theology thread section. Even same opening post but now your referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls!
After searching it must of been one of the ones that was deleted by the Mods who then promptly banned you.

But your back now 6 accounts latter with the same thread in a different section. And your now using the KJV!

(sigh) Padawan, (sigh).

Ok, so if you hold the text within the Dead Sea Scrolls over the Bible due to them being of an earlier origin than fine Padawan.

But know this!!
www.deadseascrollsfoundation.com...

The manuscripts are said to be written anytime between 250 B.C. to about 65 A.D, and at some other locations to about 135 A.D.

Heres what the experts say, and this surprised me Padawan! Yes me!

From above website:
'and most modern translations of the Bible (such as the NIV) incorporate some of the new information from the scrolls.'

PHWAOR!! PADAWAN! PHOWAR!!

I would never had believed that if it didn't come from the expert scholars. Gonna save that site for later reading.

Now to go back to your reason for using the Dead Sea Scroll is that its from a more original source than the Greek translation. Aka, older the better no? (Don't get me wrong Padawan I agree with you here... However)

www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

'Age and Authorship of Deuteronomy.
It is the unanimous opinion of modern critics that Deuteronomy is not the work of Moses, but that it was, in its main parts, written in the seventh century B.C., either during the reign of Manasseh, or during that of Josiah'

So Padawan, if Deuteronomy is believed to be written in the seventh century BC, in Hebrew which is the origin of your religion, then would its original text count more so than that of the Dead Sea Scrolls written not earlier than the 250BC?

And what do the people of Judaism believe Padawan? What is written in their Torah/Tanakh?

Here, let me show you Padawan.
(smile turns into a massive grin.)

Here ill go Hebrew first:
ח.בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם בְּהַפְרִידוֹ בְּנֵי אָדָם יַצֵּב
גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל:

The English Translation follows as:
8.When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man,
He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

The Hebrews are the origin Padawan, from here you should work forward!

But I said this on your other thread about exactly the same thing, but you seem to disregard imperial evidence and go with illegitimate translations.

May the Force be with You, Padawan!

Master Coomba98
(Padawan just got Schooled!!!)


edit on 11-4-2016 by coomba98 because: crap, bolded the wrong part!



posted on Apr, 11 2016 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: ElementalFreeze

I wasnt rude, this is ATS, be prepared for criticism. Im not even gonna bother explaining the true hebrew definition of these words since you are already completely enveloped in your belief system...


Good luck!



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