Jesus said; These little ones who believe in me

originally posted by: windword
You most certainly did!

Sorry, yes, you are right on that point.
Even before you came back to me, I double-checked and made the necessary correction (and marked it as a correction).
However, I would still maintain that obedience is a natural consequence of trust, which is the main theme.

Children possess a wide eyed innocence and unquestioning love and acceptance of everyone equally, without judgment and free from jaded and rigid dogma and doctrine.

The quality which interests Jesus is "believing in me".

You're hanging you sermon on children "who believe in him"?

Jesus is the one who makes the connection, and the point is that he is commending faith as a good thing (and criticising those who try to undermine it).

a reply to: DISRAELI

However, I would still maintain that obedience is a natural consequence of trust, which is the main theme.

The quality which interests Jesus is "believing in me".

Nope. Obedience isn't the goal, never was. That's your projection.

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven..

According to this scripture, the act of "converting", "believing" in and of itself, should make one "child like". Or do you think becoming child like is an additional quality that one must strive for after conversion?

Jesus is the one who makes the connection, and the point is that he is commending faith as a good thing (and criticising those who try to undermine it).

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Offending someone and undermining one's faith are two different animals. There is/was offensive dogma, created by temple/church leaders, that has been deliberately conceived and promulgated to control the masses, through manufactured shame, for example, which leads God's children away from their innocent state of grace. Jesus here is, again, warning against abuse of God's children by church leaders, "wolves in sheep's clothing among you".

originally posted by: windword
According to this scripture, the act of "converting", "believing" in and of itself, should make one "child like".

Yes, I'm content with that statement. faith is the main point, obedience is a side-issue.

Offending someone and undermining one's faith are two different animals.

This is a translation issue. You are making the same elementary mistake which fundamentalist Christians frequently commit, of making a point of interpretation rest on the archaic wording of the Authorised Version.
As I mentioned in the OP, the Greek word is SKANDALISE.
As I explained in the OP (and one of the other posters confirmed, quoting from Strong), the basic meaning of this word is "cause to stumble".
So the question then becomes "What is meant by the metaphor 'cause to stumble'?"
Again, this was discussed in the OP. I brought out the other places where this word is used in the gospels, including the reference to the "seed by the wayside", which "is offended" in the AV, and "falls away" in more modern versions.
Taking them all together, the implication was that "stumbling" is a metaphor about losing faith, and "causing to stumble" would be a metaphor about "causing to lose faith".

I would guess that you want to use "offend" in the very twenty-first century sense of "I am offended by what you have just said ".
That is not what the Jacobean translators meant by the word "offend", and it not what Jesus meant by the word SKANDALISE.

a reply to: DISRAELI

There are all kinds of offensive practices that are used to lure the faithful into obediently cooperating with someone else's agenda. Televangelists and certain faith healers come to mind. Personally, I'm offended by the doctrine of Original Sin, which Jesus never taught.

The Catholic church devised the doctrine of Original Sin to cause "Universal" shame. That is, in my opinion, an example of offending those "children of God", who already believe, causing the Children of God, who innocently and confidently walk in grace, feel ashamed, i.e. humbled, so that they will fall into obedience of the usurped priestly authority.

I believe that the message in this Bible passage is one of warning against those who take advantage of the faithful children of God, who already believe, by corrupting their faith for their personal gain.

a reply to: windword
You are using the word "offensive" in the twenty-first century sense.
That is not what the Jacobean writers meant by "offend", and it is not what Jesus meant by the word which they were translating.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The sentiment remains the same.

a reply to: windword

According to this scripture, the act of "converting", "believing" in and of itself, should make one "child like".

And as a child trusts and obeys its Parents, in the same way the believer should trust and obey Him.

Jesus here is, again, warning against abuse of God's children by church leaders, "wolves in sheep's clothing among you".

Not only the "wolves in sheep´s clothing" but also, those persons who putting snares in order to make the believer stumble. That is the scripture which Disraeli discusses here, and that scripture condemning(...have a great millstone tied round his neck...) those who causing ("SKANDALISE", aka. put snares ,make stumble,) the believer to begin to distrust and desert the one whom he ought to trust and obey (child-like), and in turn just causing him(i.e. believer) to fall away.

At least that is my understanding from the scripture Disraeli discusses here.


Peace

a reply to: Seed76

And as a child trusts and obeys its Parents, in the same way the believer should trust and obey Him.

Obedience is NOT an innate quality in children. Do you remember trying to get your two year old to eat their peas? Take an unwanted nap?

Innocence IS an innate quality in children. The Church rips that innate innocence away in the form their doctrine of "Original Sin" The doctrine robs every child of their innate innocence and requires them to feel ashamed, even though they believe and walk in grace.

This ^^ is what Jesus was preaching against. Violating the innocence of the children of God in order to co-op their obedience.

a reply to: windword

Obedience is NOT an innate quality in children. Do you remember trying to get your two year old to eat their peas? Take an unwanted nap?

Yeah, but as you know, children can be stubborn sometimes, but that does not mean that the child doesn´t obeys and trust it´s parents.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

Children mimic behaviors, but they have to be taught to obey. "Do as I say, not as I do", ring a bell?

This thread is the sequel to;

Your faith has saved you

a reply to: intrptr

Perhaps these people realise there is no old man sitting on a throne and waiting to judge and throw everyone into the fire. Maybe we want to help free people as we have been set free.

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: intrptr

Perhaps these people realise there is no old man sitting on a throne and waiting to judge and throw everyone into the fire. Maybe we want to help free people as we have been set free.

There you go…