It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Because the bible itself places "human morality" and emotions/feelings on god in many places.
The moral argument, as many posters have already pointed out, is untenable.
The two philosophical arguments can and have been debunked so many times that it is absurd to bring them up again.
Sorry, but if you want grounds for your belief in God you'll have to rely on faith. Which is what Christians are supposed to do anyway.
Maybe to you now, back then it would have sounded very unusual.
What's interesting is how people claim morality and immorality come from outside their own perspective, as if anyone of us knows what another perspective is even like in the first place. Our entire existence is through our own perspective. If it wasn't we'd be someone else. But we're not. I am me and you are you and everyone is themselves. So any other perspective other than your own is off limits to you. So if your morality isn't your own then basically what you're saying is you simply don't have any morals nor any ability to comprehend them. This is the reason you must follow the morals as defined in a book. Because without someone writing them down for you to follow you'd have no clue how to act. Morality, either good or bad would just not exist for you.
Someone may disagree on moral epistemology, but one thing they would both agree on is that there is a moral truth in the situation at hand.
Cor, your the beacon of light ain't you? I hate to say this, but the Bible seems to have you stressed out.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Akragon
originally posted by: In4ormant
a reply to: Akragon
So God not stopping people from killing each other is condoning it? Where's that human morality judgement you so easily place at God's feet? Isn't it man's fault for killing man?
Why would he stop them when he supposedly told them to go on this killing spree?
I mean this god does tend to contradict himself... but thats just silly
again, you make this about what it isnt, you
your argument is invalid, you condemn what you dont understand and from your tiny little perspective.
God doesnt contradict, sin equals death, sin always equals death, there is no escape from death.
A time is coming when the world we be judged again and even more death is coming, Revelations makes that clear
Of course you deny everything that doesnt agree with your belief.
It ends the same way it started, sin equals death
sinless man Adam, sins brings death, death of the perfect man Christ, causes death to sin and death
Just waiting for the final trumpet to herald the new kingdom
2. Kalam Cosmological Argument (something that had a beginning must have had a causeless cause) Energy is beginningless and endless and the universe is nothing but energy set to different vibrations. String theory is in the process of proving (or disproving) that the universe is made up of "strings" of energy that vibrate in order for the universe to exist. If energy cannot be created or destroyed and the universe is purely energy vibrating at different frequencies then the universe would not need a creator in order for it to exist because it has always existed.
No, both would not agree that there is a moral "truth" anywhere in the universe.
Not stopping people? How about God sent two bears two maul forty two children in 2 Kings. Why? Because they were making fun of one of God's servants.
I'm saying that your "moral argument" that "god is good" and that "morality comes from god" isn't backed up by any evidence.
What difference does it make, humans trying to define a god is presumptuous and impossible . A being that created all aspects of the muliutiverses does not need to be bothered by the noisy creations trying to understand it. Not that it exists as a god. But if it did, I suspect it took one look at the moronic childish -Lord of the Flies-Like things written in the Old Testament and abandoned this outpost in disgust.
Oh boy its Dr. Craig. Life is not meaningless without god. Our life has as much meaning as we want it to be. IN THE HERE AND NOW. The present is all we have.
Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good.
Your problem is you don't understand that the argument is not about moral epistemology. Moral relativism doesn't give an ontological basis for the existence of moral values which means your stuck with moral nihilism on an ontological basis.
I really want the answer to my question. Is it true that it is evil to rape babies?
Is cancer evil? Is cancer eating away at an innocent newborn baby's body any less evil that rape? Is a scenario where that baby gets stolen and eaten by Dingo a reflection of an evil creator?
How can you say that "god is good" when encompassed in the world that you credit him for creating, are all the things that you find evil? The world is a cruel place that will take the life of every living thing it encounters. How is that morally good, from mankind's perspective?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Vector99
Why is your god the right one? There are several, what makes YOUR personal one correct?
This is the second question. Are you conceding the existence of a being with the attributes given in the first three arguments?
if god is really omnipotent, it can do anything. it can even make a rock so heavy, it cannot itself lift it.