The perfect heaven

There is something I have been trying to understand and maybe someone could help me out.

Throughout most religious doctrines, heaven is considered to be the ultimate paradise. No atrophy, no decay, no strife, no violence, just a perfect paradise. So we as souls are sitting in this perfect existence, just chillin out.

We are then given this opportunity to take a plunge and be born innocent into this world. If we accept this opportunity, our memories are wiped clean and our souls enter into this physical/material reality. Now there are some discrepancies on how we enter into this reality but the consensus states that it is free will, we decide ourselves to take the journey.

Why? Why would we ever make that choice? Why would we trade paradise for a brief existence in this world? Especially one with such a high risk vs reward payout.

We start our life innocent with no knowledge, no memories, no direction. We are expected to find out the holy word on our own and follow these tenants to the letter. If we don't .... fire, brimstone, pain, endless torture, no chance of redemption .... HELL.

So we are sitting in paradise and decide to take the plunge. We are born into the wrong situation and then become damned for eternity.

Who would ever take that chance? Are we simply the souls too stupid to know any better? Are the smart souls still sitting in heaven?

a reply to: ClovenSky
I think you have your religions mixed. I don't remember anyone who believes in reincarnation saying that you end up in hell if one of your incarnations is less than successful. Christianity doesn't typically believe in reincarnation in the sense your speaking of. Mythology can be confusing, especially if you start mixing stories together.

a reply to: ClovenSky
You are mistaken in thinking that "most religions" include that moment of choice, whether to be born into this world.
That assumption is not part of Biblical religion, for a start.
If the choice is not given, your reason for puzzlement disappears.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Jesus is the Word, no tenants to follow just your faith in his work for your salvation. It is a gift of God to us, via his son.

If you can't stomach that a perfect God would figure out how to redeem us and save us, through the sacrifice of his son on our behalf. Then don't listen to anything I have to say just ignore me and go on with your life.

Just know that God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

a reply to: Klassified

I purposely steered clear of reincarnation. I am simply talking about original souls in heaven. Our knowledge of heaven is wiped clean and we are born into this reality.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

So since God is perfect, we really don't have anything to worry about? God will find a way to save every single one of us regardless of our actions in this life?

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Klassified

I purposely steered clear of reincarnation. I am simply talking about original souls in heaven. Our knowledge of heaven is wiped clean and we are born into this reality.

Ok. My mistake. It read as if that's what you were alluding to. That being the case, you're alleging that we pre-exist, and that we have some kind of choice to come here or not. I can think of nothing in the bible that supports your hypothesis on either count. The apostle Paul says we are fore-known, not that we pre-exist.

originally posted by: Klassified

Ok. My mistake. It read as if that's what you were alluding to. That being the case, you're alleging that we pre-exist, and that we have some kind of choice to come here or not. I can think of nothing in the bible that supports your hypothesis on either count. The apostle Paul says we are fore-known, not that we pre-exist.

I have never heard of that before. So we really don't exist prior to being born. We are born into this reality and then we posses a soul? At the end of our allotted time on this rock, we then get to keep our soul?

Interesting. Thank you.

a reply to: Klassified

According to the book of Jubilees, which was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, Jewish tradition holds that God created all the spirits of creation on the first day.

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide , and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.

The Book of Jubilees

So, I guess it would follow, according to Abrahamic tradition, that the unborn remain in "His Presence" until they either choose or are sent to Earth.

I have to admit. I am trying to create a reality where I can enjoy this life to the fullest. I have tried many approaches to this and I think the basis is a solid foundation of core beliefs. Beliefs that tend to hold up on their own. Beliefs that allow me to view other modes of reality with an open mind and not cause an automatic rejection. I do not wish to go down a path that causes self doubt/hate anymore.

a reply to: windword
I have read it before, but it is a bit ambiguous in my opinion, and Jubilees(lesser Genesis) is not recognized as scripture. That's why I said "in the bible". A good point to bring up though. Someone believed it around the second century BC, when it was allegedly written. An interesting aside is that the author was in favor of a solar rather than lunar calendar.

a reply to: Klassified

I don't believe that it matters that Jubilees isn't part of the canonized scripture. It shows what Jewish tradition held, being part of the Dead Sea Scrolls and all. And according to Jubilees, Jewish tradition held that all spirits were created on the first day.

Someone believed it around the second century BC, when it was allegedly written.

Can't be. The Dead Sea Scrolls predate second century writings.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Here's some info on the Jewish tradition of "The Guf".

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

In Jewish mysticism the Chamber of Guf (גּוּף, also transliterated Guph or even Gup), Hebrew for "body", also called the Otzar (הָאוֹצָר, Hebrew for "treasury"), is the Treasury of Souls, located in the Seventh Heaven.

Tree of Souls

According to Jewish mythology, in the Garden of Eden there is a Tree of life or the "Tree of Souls:[1] that blossoms and produces new souls, which fall into the Guf, the "Treasury of Souls".

Gabriel reaches into the treasury and takes out the first soul that comes into his hand. Then Lailah, the Angel of Conception, watches over the embryo until it is born.

According to Rabbi Isaac Luria, the trees are resting places for souls and sparrows can see the soul's descent, explaining their joyous chirping. The Tree of Souls produces all the souls that have ever existed, or will ever exist. When the last soul descends, the world will come to an end.[2] According to the Talmud, Yevamot 62a, is that the Messiah will not come until the Guf is emptied of all its souls.

In keeping with other Jewish legends that envision souls as bird-like, the Guf is sometimes described as a columbarium, or birdhouse. The mystic significance of the Guf is that each person is important and has a unique role which only he or she, with his or her unique soul, can fulfill. Even a newborn baby brings the Messiah closer simply by being born.

The peculiar idiom of describing the treasury of souls as a "body" may be connected to the mythic tradition of Adam Kadmon, the primordial man. Adam Kadmon, God's "original intention" for humanity, was a supernal being, androgynous and macro-cosmic (co-equal in size with the universe).

When this Adam sinned, humanity was demoted to the flesh and blood, bifurcated and mortal creatures we are now. According to Kabbalah, every human soul is just a fragment (or fragments) cycling out of the great "world-soul" of Adam Kadmon. Hence, every human soul comes from the guf [of Adam Kadmon].

a reply to: ClovenSkyafter he had done his part it is time for anyone to believe or not to believe that is all.

But if you want to just wait it out and see, go for it

a reply to: windword

I don't believe that it matters that Jubilees isn't part of the canonized scripture.

To you and I, it doesn't matter. I would think Jewish tradition would be more ancient and accurate than the Christian bible. I was going from the bible, because he seemed to be referring to a form of Christianity.

Can't be. The Dead Sea Scrolls predate second century writings.

Every source I've looked up puts it in the second century BC. Know a better source? You've got me curious.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
I have to admit. I am trying to create a reality where I can enjoy this life to the fullest. I have tried many approaches to this and I think the basis is a solid foundation of core beliefs. Beliefs that tend to hold up on their own. Beliefs that allow me to view other modes of reality with an open mind and not cause an automatic rejection. I do not wish to go down a path that causes self doubt/hate anymore.

If You TRULY want to 'enjoy this Life to the fullest' then it doesn't matter what We think does it? If You open YourSelf up to comparison then You're opening YourSelf up, this will prolong Your trip.

See? When You make a choice to worship, You join the "War Ship" Ford vs. Chevy.. It has already poked it's head up hasn't it? Like in 3 replies?

Here is something I once read on ATS™ I do not know the author so if You recognize Your work please let Me know and I'll add it to this link..



Worship equals War Ship.
It is disguised as "worship" but it is truly War Ship. Yes, get that initial giggle out and continue reading My words, as 'worshipping' is the biggest reason for wars.
Those men who build languages for MASSES to think in, are very versed in metaphysical natures.
When You pray to something that You do not know is truly there, You join the 'War Ship'. You worship something You don't know of and cannot see. You divide Yourself from Yourself and everyone around You.
Well in this language We call this "Blind Faith" Now when You have many factions worshipping, just different names that are man made, now there is 'division', the opposite of being WHOLE.
Now You've entered the 'War Ship' You clash with those who pray to the SAME CONCEPT under different names (Gods have no identity, just bogus names Man made up) This is inferior mentality.
Even though they are all human, all came from the SAME SOURCE, all are 5-based beings (think pentagram geometry)
One becomes concrete in what they worship, they judge and demonize those not praying to the same NAME.
Now You have war/division.
ISIS is defending it's concepts because the ONLY power those who join the War Ship have is physical chaos to those who oppose. Internally their people are weak and are not worthy to ascend to their internal potentials.
STOP worshipping and start accepting ALL, no matter the name they worship and if Your 'TRUTH' needs to be pushed then how TRUE is it really?
Truth needs no book, no doctrine, no dogma, no heirarchy. Truth stands on it's own, the rest is just pushing to compete with Truth and that is falsehood.


namaste

a reply to: Klassified

Discovered between 1947 and 1956, the Dead Sea Scrolls comprise some 800 documents but in many tens of thousands of fragments. The Scrolls date from around 250 B.C. to 68 A.D. and were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; they contain Biblical and apocryphal works, prayers and legal texts and sectarian documents.
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...

The Book of Jubilees, sometimes called Lesser Genesis (Leptogenesis), is an ancient Jewish religious work of 50 chapters, considered canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well as Beta Israel.................

It was well known to Early Christians, as evidenced by the writings of Epiphanius, Justin Martyr, Origen, Diodorus of Tarsus, Isidore of Alexandria, Isidore of Seville, Eutychius of Alexandria, John Malalas, George Syncellus, and George Kedrenos. The text was also utilized by the community that originally collected the Dead Sea Scrolls.
en.wikipedia.org...

The Book of Jubilees is ancient.

a reply to: ClovenSky

I have contemplated that thought before.
Some say we have no choice we are slaves of archon others say its because we have to live so many times to graduate... So to speak, I think that maybe our current intellect is not able to comprehend the whowhywherewhat of the true meaning of life.... Or maybe we are all sleeping Giants.

a reply to: ClovenSky

I think I get where you're coming from. Tell me if I'm right: You're wondering........ here is this perfect Heaven, where there is no strife, no worry, no pain, but what is so great about that? Is it boring?

In entirely different religions, a person is reincarnated, presumably if they fail to spiritually advance enough in this life. It's like a spiritual mulligan. Perhaps -- to juxtapose the two, which is what I think you were trying to do -- this existence here on Earth is "hell", and to advance up the orbital energies/spiritual plane leads to "heaven".

I think there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support the thesis of reincarnation. If it is true, it must serve some function. There must be lessons to learn and a progression, or otherwise, what's it all for??

a reply to: ChesterJohn

If god knew he would have to create himself to sacrifice himself why bother with moses. Why flood the earth and restart. Why not just send jesus in from the get go. And if god created the earth just for humans why did dinosaurs have reign over the earth for much longer than we have.