I just got this as an email, thought it was relavant though...

Listed below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States
which are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations'
records:

Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time.
Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time.
Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time.
United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time.
Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time.
Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time.
Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time.
Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time.
India votes against the United States 81% of the time.
Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time.
Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time.

US Foreign Aid to those that hate us:
----------------------------------------------------
Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United States,
still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid.

Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000
annually in US Foreign Aid.

Pakistan votes 75% against the United States receives $6,721,000 annually in
US Foreign Aid.

India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 annually in
US Foreign Aid.

In the last year The Taliban terrorized the people of Afghanistan and gave
safe haven to Osama Bin Laden, they received $143,000,000 in US Foreign Aid.

Sudan voted 75% against the United States and received $1,121,000 in US
Foreign Aid. (The US State Department stated that the Sudanese government is
guilty of providing a safe haven for a variety of terrorist groups including
Osama bin Laden's organization, The Egyptian Jihad, The Palestinian Islamic
Jihad, and Hamas. The Islamic government has also conducted a literal reign
of terror against the Christians living in the southern part of the
country.)

The Palestinian Authority will receive $500 million dollars in US Foreign
Aid over the next five years (!!!) This happened due to the Oslo" Agreement"
of 1993, The Palestinians were seen on ABC News openly celebrating and
dancing in the streets at the news of both suicide bombings on Sept. 11th.

Israel, it must be noted, receives three billion in US Foreign Aid.
However, for the last 5 years it has an average record of voting with the
United States 94% of the time.

" The Palestinians were seen on ABC News openly celebrating and dancing in the streets at the news of both suicide bombings on Sept. 11th. "

Yes, i actually heard them doing so in my Bensonhurst
neighborhood at the time. They had a big victory that day.

To this day some of them walk around with glee in their eye. I wish I could take a knife to their necks.

Yup.
I always think of the Arab regimes like some snarling dog that you keep chained up in your backyard.

You feed the bugger every day but if you go visit him outside mealtime, he's straining at the leash, trying to bite you.

What if:

1. You knew that across all UN resolutions, the Arab states voted with the US more often than other states?

2. You considered for a moment that the voting of a delegate is not indicative of the hatred of that country's populace towards your own?

3. You found out that the mainstream media's portrayal of 'Palestinian rejoice' at the news of 9/11 was neither Palestinian nor filmed on or after 9/11?

4. You asked the author of these statistics to explain how foreign aid decisions are actually made?

I'm not a supporter of Arab states or any state for that matter. I just think people ought to understand better how propaganda works. It's easy to lie to people who follow the path of truth, justice and the American way. It's the sound bit age. There are just a few brands that people need to hear, and they'll switch on OK. Just check out the vocabulary in Bush speeches.

Study the Afghanistan example as presented in this collection. Is there something glaringly missing?

Is it a foregone conclusion that perceived hatred draws the response of actual hatred?

That the US may be wrong most of the time?

It's great to tell me how often these states vote against the US, but please man, that doesn't tell me anything.
Maybe they voted against ridiculous #.

Who knows unless you FIND OUT, and stop feed us superficial bull# statistics.

And that sounds like a lot of money, but what is it being spent on? How much control doesw the US have over the money? That information might be interesting.

[Edited on 15-6-2003 by Fantastic_Damage]

Very interesting arguement. I would ask you to provide facts for # 1 and 3 in particular though.

I admit, I got this as an email, so dont have a link to go to back it up, but I will certainly do some research to see if I can find something along those lines.

It doesn't matter which way you take the statistics.

The fact is that we still have to give them our money.

dr

I knew you weren't the author of the statistics.

I will try to dig out stats on voting patterns at the UN. I believe the stats presented in your email are probably real in some way, but selective.

The Palestinian 9/11 footage issue is to me hearsay. I probably saw the same footage that you did. An Egyptian I have some business dealings with was the person who told me the footage was unrealted and inflammatory. I will see what I can find, but it may be buried in the annals of time.

Now we know where part of the deficit is from. I know it's not entirely from that specific spending, but if we refused to support nations that are against us, we could at least put the capitol/money towards our own people here n the states.

I really don't care at this moment how foriegn aid decisions are made, I know they are all wrong! otherwise we wouldn't allow half the aid we send to be captured by gorilla forces. Not that I'm agaist foreign aid , but I see some very serious flaws in the planning. So thats just another reason I have added to my list.

What's about the rumors telling that CNN used 10-Year Old Footage of Palestinians Celebrating ?

[Edited on 16-6-2003 by Salem]

Dragonrider i am not trying to be rude or annoying, but who sent you that email? It seems like a strange email to get.

Advisor

As the aggressor and conqueror of the nation of Iraq, the US now has an ongoing responsibility to redevelop the infrastructure and stability in that country.

Obviously many contracts have been awarded to the cronies of the Bush administration. That will benefit at least a handful of Americans, but I imagine cheaper foreign labor will be used for any and all actual work in fulfilling the contracts.

Sadly, the rebuilding of Iraq will cost you more than all those other foreign aid programs put together, and you personally won't see anything of it but the growing deficit figure.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Sadly, the rebuilding of Iraq will cost you more than all those other foreign aid programs put together, and you personally won't see anything of it but the growing deficit figure.

I disagree. Put a sensible regime in place and future trade will more than account for rebuilding costs.
Iraq is the second biggest oil exporter. The US is the largest oil consumer. See the link?

If the Iranians can put in place a new system of government who can tell what will happen in the other countries in the region?
Those new societies should be a lot more pro-US than they are at the moment.

Trade between the Middle East and the US could really take off.

Ilovepizza, my father sent it to me actually.

Advisor, couldnt agree with your sentiment more. We have enough financial trouble, we dont need to be sending money abroad to those who oppose us, much less those who covertly divert it to terrorist organizations.

Masked, as for the Halliburton connection you are referring to, that is true. However, at least Halliburton doesnt consort with the terrorists.

Leveller

I certainly see the link between the US's oil needs and the realignment of Iraq. It's interesting that you see it as well.

But please don't fall into the trap of thinking the war was over oil, as Bush has assured the US population repeatedly that the war was over the need to remove the clear and present danger of WMDs. Why, the administration even hooked in the UK, Spain and that other sensible nation, Australia, into that reasoning.

(Waiting for the thousands of innocent civilians gassed by Hussein to appear again in this thread. They should not be forgotten.)

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Advisor

As the aggressor and conqueror of the nation of Iraq, the US now has an ongoing responsibility to redevelop the infrastructure and stability in that country.

Masked, what are you talking about, responcibility?! The USA is the first nation to rebuild those they conquered or defeated in battle! We started that "trend". I thnk its not a bad idea, but I also believe we should just let some countries make their own mistakes.

Obviously many contracts have been awarded to the cronies of the Bush administration. That will benefit at least a handful of Americans, but I imagine cheaper foreign labor will be used for any and all actual work in fulfilling the contracts.

Thats the whole plan behind rebuilding. It's not just the administration, it's for money. and that my dear friends is sin ruleing over the flesh in the utmost way. Religious or not, people agree that money is the numeral uno factor in corrupting others.

Actually I see this thread as having debate possiblities later, after our current ones. Of course, I am sure private debates are allowed.

No, I don't believe oil was the reason for the war.
But it was always there as the repayment.

And I don't believe the guys at the top in our countries went to war over WoMD either. I see them as only being a trigger.

The reason for the war was to sort out the bloody mess that has been going on over there as a result of the Cold War.

The middleeastern nations are fighting over some cold war idea. In fact the fight they have among each other is based on two things.

1 Territory

2 Religion

Put those together along with the history of those people and it becomes clear there are fight is older than even the mccoys and hatfields grudge.

Hmmm, but the terrorists are possibly decended from cold war groups. As was described by leaked CIA reports, but that is more of a recent thing, As I believe the first global affect terrorism took was during the olympics in the 70s. But that was what got the world to open its eyes for a very brief moment, and through it's ignorence they closed them. Only to reopen them ever few years since then. Terrorism as we know it may have started with the cold war, but I am sure its been around alot longer.

Here is a record of terror made public.


1942: six German saboteurs hanged without trial [cite]



1947: National Security Council [Consortium]

1954: CIA instigates coup in Guatemala [Consortium] [NYT connection]

late 1950s: COINTELPRO created [cite]

1964: CIA creates counter-terror program in Vietnam [cite]

1967: Feb: Robert Scheer in Ramparts magazine reveals CIA has suborned leadership of National Student Association [cite] (FBI considers him under Soviet influence)

1967: Israel's Six Day War [cite]

1967: June: ICEX (Intelligence Coordination and Exploitation Program) [cite] (later renamed Phoenix Program)

1967: Aug: MHCHAOS founded for 'Operation Chaos' within CIA under Richard Ober (himself under James Angleton) [cite] [cite]

1968-72: PLO airplane hijackings [cite]

1969: Jun: Nixon directs CHAOS against dissidents [cite]

1969: Oct: CHAOS begins recruiting double-agents from anti-war and black-power movements [cite]

1970: May: 7-10,000 CHAOS dossiers on US dissidents transferred to HYDRA computer [cite] (eventually number 300,000)

1970: 15Sept: Nixon orders CIA to make Chile's economy 'scream' [cite]

1970: Dec: Nixon forms Intelligence Evaluation Committee under Robert Mardian [cite]

1971: Liddy and Hunt direct CHAOS to spy on Nixon's political enemies [cite]

1971: 15Jul: NYTimes reports 26,843 non-military executions by Phoenix Program in previous 14 months [cite]

1972: PLO assault at Munich Olympics [cite] [Yahoo links]

1972: Jul: new CIA director Colby makes Ober head of International Terrorism Group [cite]

1973: Sept: Chilean military coup, planned by CIA [cite]

1973: Sept: Colby scapegoats Angleton for illegal CIA activities [cite]

1974: abolition of 'Bomb School' in Los Fresnos, Texas [cite]

1974: Mar: MHCHAOS officially dissolved [cite]

1974: Mar: Ober replaced as head of ITG [cite]

1975: Apr: John Ryan new head of ITG (still no Chaos files destroyed) [cite]

mid-70s: terrorism widely adopted as strategy [cite]

1976: George HW Bush, DCI of CIA, directs campaign of terror in Latin America [cite]

mid-1976: anticipating Ford's losing election, CIA terror operatives move underground, resigning to work for private firms, especially under Edwin P Wilson [cite]

1977: Howard Bane new head of ITG [cite] buys black helicopters [cite]

1977: Edwin Wilson sells C4 explosive to Gaddafi [cite]

1977: Oct: 600 CIA ops fired in 'Halloween Massacre', Air America dissolved [cite]

1977: Nov: Wm Sullivan killed in 'hunting accident' before he can testify on illegal FBI wiretaps [cite]

1977-1980: 'CIA privateers' continue operations in shadows; Delta Force and Navy Seals' Team Six organised [cite]

1979: 04Nov: US Embassy in Tehran, Iran taken over by Islamic fundamentalists, all CIA records compromised [cite] [Consortium]

1980: 25Apr: hostage rescue fails [cite]

1980: Sept: Iraq/ Saddam Hussein invade Iran [cite] [Consortium]

1980: 19Oct: GWH Bush makes secret deal with Iran [cite] [Consortium]

1980s: Oliver North runs Iran-Contra scam [cite]

1981-1992: US covert ops in El Salvador [Consortium]

1981: Casey expands Office of Domestic Terrorism into Counter-Terror Network [cite]

1981: Oct: Anwar Sadat assassinated by CIA-trained bodyguards [cite]

1982-1991: School of the Americas trains Latin Americans in torture [Consortium]

1982: Israeli double-agent Michael Ledeen suggests arms sales to fund covert ops [cite]

1982: Casey engineers legal change so CIA assets can smuggle cocaine [Consortium]

---

1982: May: Ariel Sharon invades Lebanon and slaughters Palestinians [cite]

1982: FBI's Domestic Terrorism Group organised [cite]

1983: Israeli intelligence agency Mossad begins spying on foreign intelligence services via PROMIS software [Consortium]

1983: Korean Airlines disaster [Consortium]

1983: Casey conscripts Ollie North as CIA's man in National Security Council [cite]

1983: Feb: North develops secret Crisis Management Center [cite]

1983: Wilson convicted of selling C4 to Gaddafi [cite]

1983: 23Oct: Beirut Marines bombed [cite]

1984: NSC's Michael Leeden proposes illegal arms sales to Iran [cite]

1984: 16Mar: Hezbollah kidnap Beirut CIA-chief Wm Buckley [cite]

1984: Apr: North forms Terrorist Incident Working Group [cite]

1985: Jonathan Pollard arrested for spying for Israel

1985: Mar: carbomb kills 80 Lebanese, probably a CIA operation [cite]

1985: Jun: GHW Bush forms Terrorism Task Force [cite]

1986: 20Jan: Ollie North heads Office to Combat Terrorism [cite] [Consortium]

1989: 03Nov: Ari Ben-Menashe arrested for selling arms to Iran [Consortium] (acquitted Nov1990)

1994: 24Dec: Bush pardons Clarridge, Weinburger, Abrams, McFarlane, Fiers, and George [cite]

2001? General Wayne Downing appointed Deputy National Security Adviser [cite]

2001: Jan: Hart and Rudman's Commission on National Security [cite]

2001: 01Oct: Michael Ledeen (bio; Mossad?) blames Clintons in National Review Online [cite] [etext]

US suffers Latin American rebuke at OAS meeting
By Bill Vann
14 June 2003

US Secretary of State Colin Powell came away empty handed from the annual meeting of the Organization of American States held earlier this week in Santiago, Chile.

Not only did the US delegation fail to push through its agenda of a unified hard line against Cuba, for the first time in its history the OAS voted against seating the US nominee for the body’s human rights commission.

Dominating the OAS general assembly was a sharp divergence between Washington and the other members of the organization over what represents the greatest threat to stability in the region. Powell delivered a speech exhorting Latin America and the Caribbean to unite in a battle against “tyrants, traffickers and terrorists.” Latin American and Caribbean representatives replied that social unrest fueled by increasing misery represented a far greater danger than all three combined.

Lets cut off our aid to them. and then let another sodamn insane regiem invade them and lets not respond to it. or hell lets just wipe em out. they had better start supporting us or they should pay. the A-rabs are some of the most ignorant people on the face of the planet. see what theocrocy gets you? we should take out all the countries that are theocrocies because those are where the terrorist come from. RELIGION MUST NOT BE LAW! RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN LAW!