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It's ok to murder bad guys but not undercover cops...

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posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 08:43 AM
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a reply to: StallionDuck

He's right to sue.

First of all, he was performing his duties as an officer and his superiors didn't communicate properly with other officers and departments. This is one of the risks of carrying out these undercover operations. He should have accepted this risk, but that risk should have been greatly mitigated by his superiors.

And as you say, use of deadly force should be a LAST RESORT.

There are a lot of gun-totin' folks on ATS who seem to forget that you have a legal system for a reason, or that ALL suspects are innocent until proven guilty. These people seem to think that cops are like Judge Dread and should be able to murder anyone even remotely suspected of a crime.

The reality is that guns are LEGAL in your country, you guys keep screaming about this fact when it suits you, but then you claim that someone having one is reason enough for the cops to mow somone down in a hail of bullets before they've even attempted to apprehend anyone.

You cannot have it both ways. If you want your gun rights you have to accept that people will have guns, bad people and good people. You also have to accept that the job of a police officer is limited to the following:

1. Prevention of crime
2. Investigation of crime
3. Apprehension of those SUSPECTED of committing a crime
4. Safe detention and delivery of those SUSPECTED of a crime to the COURT system.

No cop has any place deeming anyone to be guilty of anything. I don't give a damn who the criminal is, what they are suspected of doing, whether they run or lay on the ground, whether they have a gun or not... none of this should matter to any cop because they are NOT JUDGES.

A cop has to arrest those SUSPECTED and deliver them safely to the courts, when they fail to do that in instances where they could have, they should be charged.
edit on 2-4-2016 by Rocker2013 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 08:47 AM
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a reply to: Rocker2013

Well if we are talking about accepting risks, remember the thread about the cop who ran over a teacher (with no lights, turn signal etc.). And it was declared by the judge that the cop was in no wrong because the teacher assumed the risk of crossing the road?

edit on 2-4-2016 by IslandOfMisfitToys because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 08:51 AM
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a reply to: Snarl

I'm not a cop.

Last year I was stabbed twice defending someone I loved, as I subdued I had every chance to pick up a knife and a broken whiskey bottle. I was in fear yet I was in control nobody but me was hurt and for that I'm grateful.

Nothing fatal but I didn't know that at the time, blood everywhere yet with all that fear and drama within a super fliud situation I never once thought I must kill. I put myself in that situation I chose it.

I'm not a cop.

It's a pathetic weak excuse you just came up with sir, weak and pathetic.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: StallionDuck

Anyone think this might have been a set-up between the two cops?

3.25 million each isn't half bad considering the money didn't :

A. Come from the police department(s)

B. Out of the cop's pocket who shot the other one

Maybe not since the cop was nearly killed but I'm sure I just gave some cops a few ideas........
edit on 2-4-2016 by IslandOfMisfitToys because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:05 AM
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originally posted by: RAY1990
I'm not a cop.

It's a pathetic weak excuse you just came up with sir, weak and pathetic.

I respect your opinion. You and I are not cut from the same bolt of cloth. Our opinions will differ based on life experiences.

I got stabbed once too. Right under the breastbone. Was completely paralyzed from the shock, and the pain, and the reality of what had at that moment just happened. Know what? I learned to never let my guard down again.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: StallionDuck

The most disturbing part of this is that OBVIOUSLY the undercover cop did nothing to threaten anyone's life, so they are taking measures to make sure they don't shoot an UNDERCOVER COP in that situation again... but they're doing absolutely nothing to make sure anyone else in that situation isn't shot again.

So, they know -- and everyone making excuses for the would-be murderer(s) know -- that people are being killed by police who threaten their lives in absolutely no way... and they don't care. In fact, I believe it may be worse. I believe there is a very sadistic element that actually enjoy seeing/hearing about perceived "thugs" and "low lives" gunned down like dogs in the street. Similar to "suicide-by-cop" but more like "murder-by-cop."

I am all for providing our law enforcement officers with the best defensive equipment and training available... but not indiscriminate shooting of anyone and everyone just to ensure the cop goes home at night. We're not doing our LEOs -- or anyone -- any favors by turning them into armed thugs with badges.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: IslandOfMisfitToys
a reply to: Rocker2013

Well if we are talking about accepting risks, remember the thread about the cop who ran over a teacher (with no lights, turn signal etc.). And it was declared by the judge that the cop was in no wrong because the teacher assumed the risk of crossing the road?


The judge was wrong.
Clearly.
In fact they should have been disbarred.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: Snarl

In life it's difficult to allow a lowered gaurd especially when physical trauma has happened in the past.

I believe a cop places himself in his job because he wants to be in that situation, not because he/she is a masochist but because they'd rather themselves take the burden rather than an innocent.

Trauma and fear are two very real things but if either cause you to act irrationally then I feel you are not fit for purpose to be placed in such a situation.

Is the conclussion here that PTSD should be more actively screened and treated in US police departments?

Clearly the US needs to do something with the torrent of cases similar to the case in the OP. Do you agree?



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:23 AM
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Thank you for your anecdote, and your opinion.

I agree, he needs evaluation. I hope he is taken off the beat soon. There is a sickening schadenfreude in his flippant self-serving tone. The only thing that is black and white is his license to kill. Good to know.

I am about to peruse the thread wherein a man, David Kassick, was high on dope, and blinked out whimpering 'what the fcuk...?', as a cop plugged him repeatedly even though he was on he ground, face down, festooned with taser barbs, and utterly incapacitated. He was an old white hippie type stoner who was spotted by a lady cop when he was toking or whatever, and officer Lisa Mearkle was fearful of wetting her pants as evidenced by her horrible, harassing repeated commands to 'get on the ground!', taser in one hand gun in the other, while back up sirens wailed mere blocks away. In plain black and white, Officer Mearkle sounded nuts. I believe she was acquitted of wrongdoing.

www.youtube.com...

My aim is to see how the suspected redcoat specimen contributed to the discussion, is all. I only wish I knew who gave him stars.

a reply to: RAY1990

# 611


edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: you make me sick pig

edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: Yes you do, and don't ever change that avatar please. Less words to read.

edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:34 AM
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a reply to: Snarl




Civilians don't put your lives on the line ... just to do your jobs.


Coal miners.
Electrical workers.
Firemen.
Etc....

www.huffingtonpost.com...

However, the misconception that police work is dangerous, propagated by the media and police unions, could become a self-fulfilling prophecy— especially if police believe that they are going into deadly battle when they head out on patrol. They are likely to be nervous and trigger-happy and might affect their decision-making in a stressful situation. The fact is: being a policeman is not one of the most dangerous jobs you can have, according to statistics from the Bureau of Labor. In five years, 2008 to 2012, only one policeman was killed by a firearm in the line of duty in New York City. Police officers are many times more likely to commit suicide than to be killed by a criminal; nine NYC policemen attempted to take their own lives in 2012, alone. Eight succeeded. In 2013, eight NYPD officers attempted suicide, while six succeeded. If police want to protect themselves, a wise move might be to invest in psychiatric counseling, rather than increased firepower.


Emphasis mine

How about we stop pretending these guys are going in to battle every time they go out. It's been proven time and time again, police work is no where near as dangerous as they'd like us to believe.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: RAY1990
I'm not a cop.

It's a pathetic weak excuse you just came up with sir, weak and pathetic.

I respect your opinion. You and I are not cut from the same bolt of cloth. Our opinions will differ based on life experiences.

I got stabbed once too. Right under the breastbone. Was completely paralyzed from the shock, and the pain, and the reality of what had at that moment just happened. Know what? I learned to never let my guard down again.


Still here? Lol. I am getting a huge kick out of Molon Labe under your screen name. A bad day just got worse.

So again, it's OK for a cop to shoot to kill anyone, because he simply sees a weapon?

Molon Labe only applies if you're a cop? And then, as a cop, you simply assassinate, to put it in black and white for you, the person who isn't a cop, who happens to possess weapons?

Not letting your guard down sounds reasonable.
However, this tidbit of common sense is out of place here, where you have justified the preemptive killing of a person just because he has a holstered weapon. Whatever happened to Molon Labe? Is 'not letting you guard down' inclusive of mowing down everyone else's?

There. I nailed it. That is what you are. That is, thanks to you, what cops have become. Sickening.
Bet you can't wait for the confiscation raids that They™ are preparing for? Molon Labe indeed, pimp.

You, sir, became a cop for the wrong reason.
And They™ are hiring your breed, deliberately recruiting swathes from your bolt of cloth, a bolt of cloth which is so rife with filth I wouldn't wipe my ass with it, and by the thousand.
For this, there will be hell to pay.

Carry on.

# 612

edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-4-2016 by TheWhiteKnight because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:53 AM
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a reply to: TheWhiteKnight




My aim is to see how this suspected redcoat specimen contributed to the discussion, is all. I only wish I knew who gave him stars.


Is that aimed at me? I think I'm confused.

I really try not to dictate to anyone and my opinions on this thread are just that, opinions. I'll always have an opinion when policing and killing is concerned because judges are judges and officers are officers. The US and UK isn't all that different in terms of policing and punishment.

Fear is a poor excuse for someone to use when blatantly attacking someone especially when it comes to those deemed fit to uphold the law.

What is the meaning of #611?


EDIT:

I see now
I think we agree somewhat, carry on

edit on 2-4-2016 by RAY1990 because: humpty dumpty had a great fall...



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: DAVID64
How about we stop pretending these guys are going in to battle every time they go out. It's been proven time and time again, police work is no where near as dangerous as they'd like us to believe.

That was my point. If it was (like going into battle ... on a daily basis), there's a greater chance the specific encounter we're talking here would have gone a completely different direction.

Cops don't 'want' to shoot anyone ... let alone a fellow officer. The frikkin' investigation, the stress, the paperwork, the side-ways looks ...

Trying to right perceptions one post at a time.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 10:02 AM
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Sounds to me like undercover officer asked his buddy to shoot him. Seriously. 6.5 million dollars?

Expect cops to start shooting eachother and sueing quite regularly after this i guess.

Id take two bullets for that much cashish.
i think these cops are scam artists.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 10:12 AM
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a reply to: RAY1990

Sadly, I don't have answers for those questions.

I'm from an older generation and a different line of law enforcement. I can see where there are problems, but I don't have the tools to articulate what I know accurately. Am probably not alone here.

I sense a lot of frustration in this forum. Probably added some of my own to it from time-to-time. All cops are certainly not bad. Most cops aren't bad IMVHO either. A few are ... and it's doubtful they last long enough to cause all the angst expressed.

When people really want to make a difference, they'll be the ones who sign-up and take the jobs from the people they're not happy with. I've seen that happen and I've seen what happens to those same folks when the veil lifts from their eyes. It's always amusing.

Bitchin' and moaning isn't a solution.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: StallionDuck

Thanks for the reply. A cop shot an armed man during a drug bust. Knowing he was undercover, my first impression is there was probably a misunderstanding that lead to an accident. You start from the assumption that such a thing is impossible, and the only possible explanation was deliberate and malicious intent to kill without provocation. Later you compare this to a cop seeing toys lying around (not actually in the subject's possession) and blowing someone away. An armed man at a drug bust, and a man who happens to be near a toy (or even a real gun) don't sound like a close comparison to me.

"Do you honestly think I'm saying that people pointing guns at cops shouldn't be shot?"

I didn't say the person in my scenario had the gun pointed at the cop, only that it was ready. But yes, I was honestly wondering how much regard you have for the safety of the police.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: Snarl





Sadly, I don't have answers for those questions.

I'm from an older generation and a different line of law enforcement. I can see where there are problems, but I don't have the tools to articulate what I know accurately. Am probably not alone here.


Well that is a shame, but at the end of the day it falls down to accountability and if LEO's are unfit for duty someone needs to be held accountable for their misconduct and unjustified actions.

You may not be up to date with medical checks and what not these days but I do feel it must be a priority in the 21st century to have an effective and supporting care network in place. Putting all the nancy-pancy stuff aside mental health and stress is a fundamental real issue especially in high stress jobs.




I sense a lot of frustration in this forum. Probably added some of my own to it from time-to-time. All cops are certainly not bad. Most cops aren't bad IMVHO either. A few are ... and it's doubtful they last long enough to cause all the angst expressed.


You kind of did start with an attitude that has clearly not been helpful on the issue and it is an issue. It's growing and growing everyday, not just in the US and neither just in policing. Whistle blowing has become a little more prevalent in the 21st century and it's probably why things like this are becoming more apparent. No more grey but a more lawful black and white is coming, people will always work toward securing more freedom and justice it's inherent in our ways.




When people really want to make a difference, they'll be the ones who sign-up and take the jobs from the people they're not happy with. I've seen that happen and I've seen what happens to those same folks when the veil lifts from their eyes. It's always amusing.


And that is the BIG problem, that veil you speak of is corruption and it's everywhere. You should not find it amusing because when we decide to swim with it we become corrupt and it just makes it harder for people down the river swim against the impeding pressure of corruption those before found it comfortable to flow in or break to it's will in fear of drowning.




Bitchin' and moaning isn't a solution.


I do see a lot of bitching and moaning but it's the internet and no more than ATS
I also however see good work on raising awareness and that is never a bad thing.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 10:48 AM
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originally posted by: RickyD
All you had to do was mention APD...those jackasses are about as dirty as you could get. So glad I moved away from that city.


This. This right here. Those that don't live in the Duke City have no clue how bad it really is here. I have said it before, in Albuquerque, the police are not racist. They kill everyone.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 10:58 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: RAY1990

Sadly, I don't have answers for those questions.




But you certainly came across in your first response that the answer was to ignore the problem because the problem was justified.





I'm from an older generation and a different line of law enforcement. I can see where there are problems, but I don't have the tools to articulate what I know accurately. Am probably not alone here.




And that is the problem, the very same problem we're discussing. Acting as judge and juror from the 'good ol boy' mentality where cops back one another up for making the wrong choices, especially when those choices are illegal as the actions they're supposedly protecting the public from, that cause death and destruction.


I know all about the old days. I was a 3rd generation officer. As the educated one... I know the difference from right and wrong. I see this as 100% wrong. This activity stood against every single thing taught at my police academy and I know for a fact that the academy that those officers went to must be modern and teach modern tactics. There is NO WAY on this planet that those young officers had that old timey mentality that you're referring to. If they have and do, then that city PD is made of one bass ackwards mentality and should no longer exist. It should be shut down immediately.



I sense a lot of frustration in this forum. Probably added some of my own to it from time-to-time. All cops are certainly not bad. Most cops aren't bad IMVHO either. A few are ... and it's doubtful they last long enough to cause all the angst expressed.




No one said they were all bad. I considered myself one damn fine officer. I've worked with some damn fine officers. I've even worked with a few damn crooked ones too. I've worked along side a couple that I even believe had hands in killing multiple young girls in a serial killer type fashion, though I can't prove any of it. There are certainly lots of speculation from plenty that agree with me and even some supposed witnesses to information that never saw the light of day. Whole departments have fallen in nearby small cities due to drug relations and corruption. Even one particular small city that has hands in a major drug trafficking situation but again... can only be said via speculation. But still... Not all of them bad. Though based on what I saw around me and what I came to understand, one could make the assumption that majority was indeed bad to the bone. I also personally feel that a majority of cops become cops to get back at the people who picked on them as a child, directly or indirectly. I've had my own partner say...


"#%@& those Mother
#%@&*^.... They messed with me and kicked my @$$ in school when I was a kid." and then proceeded to pull them over for whatever the reason was back when.

I've had that same partner refused to back up his fellow officer, lie and claim he didn't see a situation when it came to charging someone because the girl involved was the daughter of one of his friends.

Don't you tell me anything about how cops are supposed to act or how they do act or who's bad and who's not. I know all about it from first hand experience. I could go all day long about the BS I've seen, the calls I had to go down on where it was one little old white boy cop against a sea of black folk where half hate you for being a cop and the other half wanting to tear you a part because you have to arrest their kin folk. Don't you tell me a bloody thing about fear and last minute choices. I know all about it. I've lived it. That still didn't give me the right to make bad choices or break the law that I swore to uphold. That's a cowards way out and one that should be prosecuted by the same law officers swear to uphold if they break it.





When people really want to make a difference, they'll be the ones who sign-up and take the jobs from the people they're not happy with. I've seen that happen and I've seen what happens to those same folks when the veil lifts from their eyes. It's always amusing.

Bitchin' and moaning isn't a solution.


Been there, done that... got the T-shirt. And here you are arguing with the same person who did exactly what you're referring to. How are you overlooking this? Am I one of the few? Does your response not apply to me? It must not because you're no longer answering my direct points.

You know why I got out of the PD?

Corruption. Stupidity. Racism (from both ends). Crookedness. Better paying salary. Better job offer. Piece of mind. Less stress.

Being a police officer is only for people who DONT make bad calls. Who THINK about their actions before they make them. Who DONT break the law the swear to uphold.

Simply put... Having an "old time" or cowboy/wild west mentality has no place in any PD, old days or current. If you have it.. You're simply wrong. No excuse. Never, not a one. If you broke the law to maintain the law, you're wrong, you're guilty and you should never be or have been a cop, ever. There is no such thing as the "old days' mentality. You're just admitting that you are as crooked as a drug dealer. You should be in jail like any other offender for whatever crime you committed. There is no gray area. It's that simple... that black and white.

You are not an honorable person, let alone an honorable or justified cop with that kind of mentality. There is nothing justified about it.

Lastly... It's not as simple as joining the force to change the force. You don't have to be a cop to see the corruption. We shouldn't have to quit our respectable jobs just to fix another one. We pay taxes, we have a say. So we can "cry about it" all we want. That is our right. That is our job. That is what we're SUPPOSED to do. That's like saying, "If you want to stop malpractice, you have to be a doctor. You certainly can't sue or say anything about it".

Your reasoning makes no sense what so ever.



posted on Apr, 2 2016 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: StallionDuck

Thanks for the reply. A cop shot an armed man during a drug bust. Knowing he was undercover, my first impression is there was probably a misunderstanding that lead to an accident. You start from the assumption that such a thing is impossible, and the only possible explanation was deliberate and malicious intent to kill without provocation. Later you compare this to a cop seeing toys lying around (not actually in the subject's possession) and blowing someone away. An armed man at a drug bust, and a man who happens to be near a toy (or even a real gun) don't sound like a close comparison to me.

"Do you honestly think I'm saying that people pointing guns at cops shouldn't be shot?"

I didn't say the person in my scenario had the gun pointed at the cop, only that it was ready. But yes, I was honestly wondering how much regard you have for the safety of the police.


I have the utmost respect from both being a former officer to many of my family still being officers. LEOs are supposed to make split decisions based on what they see. However, if you watch the video, there was no time between "GUN" and 'BANG'. Cops do get put in situations where they have to make tough calls, but they must also try their best to keep themselves out of that situation and keep themselves safe as possible. Based on the information, the amounts of lawsuits that happened prior, I can say with an educated guess, based on the facts and experience and what I saw in those videos, that this officer did not act rational. This officer had a hair trigger mentality. The biggest issue I have with this is not only did the officer make the wrong choices but he was not held liable for it. The taxpayers were. This officer is free to make the same mistakes.

When I was in the academy, it was drilled into our heads "Our actions can put us in prison"! If I had that kind of training, I can only hope that they had the same, even more modern than what I had.

Of that officer had been justified in his actions, the dept wouldn't have gotten sued, especially by a companion officer. That undercover might have been found that his actions were negligent but wasn't. He was awarded. Since that happened and shooting officer found negligent enough that the court found that the undercover was in the right, then that officer should have been reprimanded by the same laws he broke. Surely the court wouldn't have awarded this officer money had it been a justifiable accident. So the alternative would have been attempted murder. Attempted manslaughter at the very least.



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