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Justice Is Dead in America

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posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 12:06 AM
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I was just reading the following thread and I can see that very few are grasping the implications involved in the poll being discussed:

Exclusive: Most Americans support torture against terror suspects - poll

"Torture is illegal by our laws. It's illegal by international laws."
— Ron Paul on Saturday, November 12th, 2011 in a Republican presidential debate in Spartanburg, S.C.

An examination of that quote is given here:

Ron Paul says torture is banned under U.S., international law

What all of this means is that a vast majority of Americans (nearly two-thirds) think that US laws and international law can be ignored based on any grounds. Yes, based on any grounds because anyone can be a "terror suspect" including those who are found with or doing the following:



7 Days of Food
Missing Fingers
Buying Flashlights
Paying Cash at Hotels
Ron Paul Stickers

10 Ridiculous Things That Make You a Terror Suspect

Look at the things listed in the article above and ask yourself if you could be on a "terror suspect" list for being a member on this website. Then, realize that you could be tortured for that and most Americans say that's just fine.

Justice is dead in America because Americans think their government is above all laws.

Is the king the law or is the law the king?

America was set up to be a place where the law was king as that was considered to be fair. That premise has officially gone out the window.
edit on 31-3-2016 by Profusion because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 12:17 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

And since when was justice really 'alive' ?

It has been dead for a very, and I mean a very, long time.

Sure it has its moments but the way I see it, in my part of the world at least, there never was such a thing. An eye for an eye and all that is bogus.




posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 12:20 AM
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a reply to: Profusion




America was set up to be a place where the law was king as that was considered to be fair. That premise has officially gone out the window.


Not even kings, I've seen low level public servants claim "they are the law"

Zombies' etymology springs to mind (it's a Western African serpent deity and by extension, the people hypnotized by its priests)
Cognitive dissonance always stems from failure to delegate the aegid to the facet of personality present in all although often repressed, that sees beyond desire.
Desire to rule is a corollary of imperialist belief systems.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 12:48 AM
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Considering torture has been proven not to work, and also the fact that I personally think it's barbaric, it boggles my mind and depresses me that people can still be in favor of it.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 01:25 AM
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a reply to: Autorico

How can torture be proven not to work? Not one person has ever told the truth while being tortured? I have always heard thatvtorture was proven not to work but if anyone ever tortured spilt the beans truthfully then that claim makes no sense.

Studies have probably shown something but studies have zero accountabilty.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 02:01 AM
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a reply to: DrakeINFERNO

I think you have this round your neck.

Torturing does not work because it illicits HUGE quantities of invented data. What happens is, that a whole group of people get snatched up, and then they are all tortured. All of them say SOMETHING, all of them COME UP WITH SOMETHING! Of course they do!

But only one of those say, fifty individuals ever had anything to say that qualifies as legitimate intel. Furthermore, the people who have the most information have been trained to withstand, to the point of death, all manner of physical and mental abuse already, so it IS actually the case that those who talk are rarely those who are in the know.

So what is the end result of all this?

Troves of entirely useless data, with the odd bit of extremely low level, disjointed truth thrown in. The ratio of useless to useful information gleaned from torture, is somewhere right around the one terabyte of complete lies and drivel, told to stop the pain from happening, to one byte of partially useful data mark.

To say that the single byte of data out of all of those bytes of BS is worth it, suggests to me that you do not understand how intelligence operations work. You see, when an operative is activated, and instructed to investigate something based on information gained from torture, they are putting themselves in a very seriously dangerous situation. They are essentially acting on intelligence which has a 0.0001% chance of being accurate. That leaves them exposed to risk. Intelligence operatives and special forces members, being deployed based on intelligence, need to know that the intelligence data they are working from is accurate, because that means that their objectives are clear, attainable, that their planning for events can be done with some reasonable degree of foreknowledge.

This is what we would call actionable intelligence. This is not the sort of intelligence that is gained from torture. This sort of intelligence is more often gained from previous intelligence lead operations on the ground, or from local sources who oppose whatever group is being hunted by those intelligence assets, rather than from detainees who have been down a hole in the ground in some black site prison somewhere.

In summary, intelligence gained from torture is far and away more likely to get people killed when they act on it, because of the tendency when threatened with violence, to say something, when they had nothing to say of any importance. Good intelligence being gained from this method is so rare as to be statistically irrelevant. It does not work, it never has, it is flawed and wrong, not to mention wasteful of resources. It must end.


edit on 31-3-2016 by TrueBrit because: Grammatical improvements.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 02:33 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

So why start a new thread on the same topic? If you had something to add you should do it in the thread YOU are alluding to in your OP.

I do not support terror, but I also don't care about 'international law'.

If someone is an American citizen then they have rights under our Constitution. I don't believe that those rights extend to non-Americans caught blowing up my fellow human beings. Rights only apply to humans and anyone that blows up innocent people is no longer human.
edit on 2016/3/31 by Metallicus because: eta / changed



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 02:33 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

Who....does......number ......2 .......work .....for?

Makes sense, what if you dont torture a bunch of people but jst a couple important bad guys. Boom problem solved no data clutter 😉

Who knows, maybe i care less about the intel and more about the dolling of sweet sweet punishment. But hey I decend from a brutal people #ancestorsfault its a culture thing


You may also notice I took my quote from the movie law abiding citizen

edit on 31-3-2016 by DrakeINFERNO because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-3-2016 by DrakeINFERNO because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 03:32 AM
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originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: DrakeINFERNO

I think you have this round your neck.

Torturing does not work because it illicits HUGE quantities of invented data. What happens is, that a whole group of people get snatched up, and then they are all tortured. All of them say SOMETHING, all of them COME UP WITH SOMETHING! Of course they do!

But only one of those say, fifty individuals ever had anything to say that qualifies as legitimate intel. Furthermore, the people who have the most information have been trained to withstand, to the point of death, all manner of physical and mental abuse already, so it IS actually the case that those who talk are rarely those who are in the know.

So what is the end result of all this?

Troves of entirely useless data, with the odd bit of extremely low level, disjointed truth thrown in. The ratio of useless to useful information gleaned from torture, is somewhere right around the one terabyte of complete lies and drivel, told to stop the pain from happening, to one byte of partially useful data mark.

To say that the single byte of data out of all of those bytes of BS is worth it, suggests to me that you do not understand how intelligence operations work. You see, when an operative is activated, and instructed to investigate something based on information gained from torture, they are putting themselves in a very seriously dangerous situation. They are essentially acting on intelligence which has a 0.0001% chance of being accurate. That leaves them exposed to risk. Intelligence operatives and special forces members, being deployed based on intelligence, need to know that the intelligence data they are working from is accurate, because that means that their objectives are clear, attainable, that their planning for events can be done with some reasonable degree of foreknowledge.

This is what we would call actionable intelligence. This is not the sort of intelligence that is gained from torture. This sort of intelligence is more often gained from previous intelligence lead operations on the ground, or from local sources who oppose whatever group is being hunted by those intelligence assets, rather than from detainees who have been down a hole in the ground in some black site prison somewhere.

In summary, intelligence gained from torture is far and away more likely to get people killed when they act on it, because of the tendency when threatened with violence, to say something, when they had nothing to say of any importance. Good intelligence being gained from this method is so rare as to be statistically irrelevant. It does not work, it never has, it is flawed and wrong, not to mention wasteful of resources. It must end.



Yes. If I considered myself an Arabic extremist and was unlucky enough to be questioned and held beyond my natural given rights to be 'tortured' wouldn't I, without any training to physically abstruse my personal goals, confess to any and every probing that may elicit a response that they would be looking for just to end their malicious ways??



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 03:33 AM
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a reply to: DrakeINFERNO

Well that is just the thing isn't it?

Without some actionable intelligence, those responsible for figuring out what is what and who is who, cannot say who has all the data they need, and once again, many of those who have real data of any importance, also have the training necessary to overcome simple torture. It's flawed, unless all you want is to do a mediocre job of really messing someone up.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 03:33 AM
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originally posted by: Profusion
Justice Is Dead in America

You must be new here.
As always, you get all the 'justice' that you can afford!

And, like every judge having to spend 6 months in prison before taking the bench, I say that every pro-torture Amerikkkan should be fully as tortured as the worst that the insane government goons gleefully, droolingly, masturbatorily engages in!




edit on 31-3-2016 by namelesss because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 03:35 AM
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a reply to: Inarismessenger

Precisely.

The amygdala is a powerful and ancient neurophysical object. It's impulses, responses to stimuli are predictable in controlled circumstances, but the results those responses glean are less than satisfactory for the exact reason you allude to.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 03:47 AM
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Torture is evil, it does not solve terrorism, it fuels it, and it is it.

As TrueBrit rightly pointed out, the weak mind will admit to stealing the moon before you're done cutting their toes.

The strong mind, even if in possession of real intel, will die silently or sometimes with a "# you infidel swine eating pieces of #" then and there.

The ruthless mind will admit that their opponents have the launching codes.

Torture is not only wrong and evil, it's inefficient.
edit on 43747v2016Thursday by wisvol because: ruthless



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 04:22 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

Justice Is Dead in America - I agree and unfortunately America is at the vanguard of sliding into the big black hole of tyranny.

Many other western nations are following, including my own sadly.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 08:34 AM
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originally posted by: Autorico
Considering torture has been proven not to work, and also the fact that I personally think it's barbaric, it boggles my mind and depresses me that people can still be in favor of it.


Herd mentality is what it is and that is the very definition of a democracy. If the majority want something, its law. If they want your kids, its law. If they want to string up your neighbors because they look different, all the government needs is a majority consensus and its law.

That is why democracy is known as a transitional form of government, they don't last long, and the evolving result of such is often a place you wouldn't want to live in anyway.

Anyone who says we are a republic should get their vision tested, we WERE a republic. Now we are Rome in the entitlement period just before collapse.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 09:01 AM
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a reply to: BooCrackers

Your republic has been democratically administrated, that is by way of presidential selection using a system of freely cast votes, since it became independent. It has always been both a republic and a democracy at once, never one or the other entirely. You cannot actually have one without the other, unless you want a dictatorship or something like a coporatocracy, both of which would be much worse than what you have now.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 09:19 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit




something like a coporatocracy, both of which would be much worse than what you have now.


I was under the impression that different is a prerequisite to worse.

Also,




It has always been both a republic and a democracy at once, never one or the other entirely. You cannot actually have one without the other


democracy exists without republic: say Great Britain or Belgium (as in democratic monarchies, at least on paper) and republics certainly exist without democracy (Roman empire under dictatorship springs to mind)



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: wisvol

In the instance of a Republic, you cannot have a republic which is not a dictatorship or something similar, unless it is administrated a democratic fashion.

Otherwise you might as well select a noble family and have them rule it. Either that or hand the place over to the military.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 09:54 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

Select a noble family to rule over it as in either of the countries we're writing from today?
(assuming you're on the home turf)

They can still play vote, just like America.



posted on Mar, 31 2016 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: wisvol

Both our nations are suffering from too little democracy, not too much.

That is not a point which needs a debate, it is just how it is. You must know that, because your previous post proves as much!




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