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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
I feel that one of the main problems I have when conversing with people about my personal theological beliefs is a lack of understanding of how I actually view the world. I find that many people lack the ability to separate their thought processes from their own world view. This happens the most when we begin to reach the very base assumptions of our world views because those are the parts of our beliefs that we use to interpret and judge reality.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
So why would we think this world is contingent upon some Creative Entity? The simple answer is because of cause and effect. Logically the universe could not have caused itself.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Matter could not have created itself.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Because the idea of something creating itself is self-contradictory.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
This is because in every case where something has actually been made, that which caused it existed prior to it.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
What we would call our universe has beginning at around 14-15 billion years ago. It logically had a prior(though prior some what loses it normal meaning here) cause which brings us to the idea of a creative entity.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
As a Christian what is one of the most basic assumptions I would make about this entity? The most basic assumption is that this entity is an agent. Meaning this entity has the capacity to act in any given environment. An agent also typically has some sort of awareness of their physical actions and the goals that the activity is aimed at realizing. So what reason do I have for believing that this Creative Entity was some sort of agent. The most simplistic answer I can give is because this Entity created information.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
So why does the existence of information lead you to the idea that the Creative Entity is an agent? Again a rather simple answer. The creation of information is contingent upon something with agency.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
A rock cannot produce information. A rock is what it is and we as agents in this world can assign information to describe attributes of the rock, but the rock itself cannot produce and convey a message.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
What we often times don't realize is that when discover physical constants such as the speed of light or electromagnetic strength is that the medium of the information is the force and we are simply discovering the message tuck beneath one that if you study enough you find that the balance required for life to exist is quite fragile.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Then you continue forward into the realm of biological systems and you find that the cell not only contains information, but actually can read and utilize the information to build a body plan. That means that biological systems were caused by something with agency as they can read and utilize input to preform a specific task.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
But hopefully you can start to see how I look at the world.
Because the idea of something creating itself is self-contradictory.
What if these individuals whom have formed their personal world-view have done it off of not belief, but by evidence?
Why not? It is a well known phenomena within Cosmology that super-massive objects collapse upon themselves and that all black holes compress matter into a singularity. In science, the Universe suddenly expanded from a singularity (not nothing), so technically, yes, it would have been caused by itself.
No one has suggested matter created itself
So where did god come from?
Right, like a singularity forming the universe.
This is illogical because it's circular reasoning: "The entity is an agent, an agent does things in any environment, I believe the entity is an agent because the entity created everything" This answers nothing, nor is it logical, it only leads to an excessive amount of questions.
This is only logical if you already have a premise, which in itself is an inaccurate and illogical way of evaluating anything. You don’t say “I have an answer, lets look for things to support it” you say “I have a question, lets look for things that can form an answer”
You keep using terms like “information”, “agent” and “message” as if it is commonplace to use these terms in a logical argument, which in this case is far from acceptable. They are essentially empty terms to make your sentences appear as if they are valid.
Rocks can produce a lot of things. for example, a rock is merely a dense mass of minerals. These minerals can be rubbed off creating other materials. They can be crushed down to have the same effect too. The weight of a sum of rocks can create pressure on other materials and elements which give rise to new things, like diamonds for instance. Using your generic terminology, a rock solves all the issues you’ve just listed.
So now you’re assuming that because many things in physics can be reduced to mathematics, it’s thus a message created by something else? The thing is, physics doesn’t require there to be a god in order to function. It functions perfectly fine on it’s own without define interference. It can even create order.
Once again, you falsely personify naturally occurring phenomenas and state “it must be god” because you’ve come into these questions illogically, and already with an answer in mind.
Unless it's God? Or did something/someone create God and if so, who/what created God's creator and who/what created the creator of the creator and so on and so forth? That's an infinite regress.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
We all come to our world views based off our experiences here in this life, the information we take in, and how we interpret that information, but the way you interpret information is based off the very basic assumption of your beliefs.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I am a bit confused as to what you are referring to as evidence. Are you saying you have reasons for why you believe it to be a certain way?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Do you mean someone who approaches the world with a naturalistic world view? Please clarify don't want to put words in your mouth.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Define a singularity for me please. Tell me what is it's essence, or the set of attributes which make it what it is
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Are you suggesting it is eternal?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
The question is logically incoherent. You cannot ask when something not bound by time began, it simply doesn't make sense.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Strawman. This is not the argument I put forth so i don't really have much to say here.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Are you even trying to comprehend what I've said? Nothing about that statement says that I have started with an answer and then went to look for things to support it....The only thing I said was the creation of information is dependent upon prior existence of an agent...
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I used those terms to convey certain information to the readers. If you think they are empty then you are obviously missing the message....
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Sure and at what point in any of those processes did the rock produce any information?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
You as an agent have given descriptions to those processes but those processes do not produce information.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
At what point could you call the rock an agent during those processes?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Mathematics are just the medium. You are constantly confusing the medium of information rather than the meaning.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I haven't personified anything. Are you denying that mRNA and ribosomes exchange information that contains meaning?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: theantediluvian
Unless it's God? Or did something/someone create God and if so, who/what created God's creator and who/what created the creator of the creator and so on and so forth? That's an infinite regress.
I'll tell you as I told Ghost. That question is logically incoherent. It is the same as asking when did eternity start? Or what is the shape of purple? The question simply isn't logical.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: theantediluvian
I'll tell you as I told Ghost. That question is logically incoherent. It is the same as asking when did eternity start?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: theantediluvian
Or what is the shape of purple? The question simply isn't logical.
So where did god come from?
The question is logically incoherent. You cannot ask when something not bound by time began, it simply doesn't make sense.
Speak for yourself. I don't make conclusions and then look for answers. The conclusions I've formed were formed from evidence that was gathered. Therefore "the way I interpret information" is not subject to bias based on beliefs. It's a far more accurate way of determining what is and what is not reality and factual.
No. I have come to this conclusion myself through experimentation, education, cross-confirming conclusions and objective observation.
A gravitational singularity, is a one-dimensional point which contains a huge mass in an infinitely small space, where density and gravity become infinite and space-time curves infinitely, and where the laws of physics as we know them cease to operate.
Not at all. We simply do not know. Proton decay has never been observed, but may be a possibility, and we don't believe that electrons can ever decay, either. We simply do not know the answer to that.
But saying that something like a universe creating being - one that would have to interact within space-time to some degree to have any effect at all - does make sense?
Why would it be considered irrelevant to note that your original argument is literally using illogical logic? I've even demonstrated how it is illogical by putting it into a simpler format.
That's an answer! Stating "the creation of information is dependent upon prior existence of an agent" is the answer you've come to, and then you've looked for information to support it.
It's not a matter of me 'thinking they are empty', they literally mean absolutely nothing unless you've personally given those words a specific meaning in order to support your own preconceived conlusions. There is nothing like an "agent", you've just made it up and applied your own definition to it.
There is nothing like "information", at least in the way you're depicting it as, because the way you're depicting it as is solely based on a premise that 'something must have created it that way'
The weight and pressure of rocks can create diamonds, it can create oil, it can create layers found in the geological time scale which hold the information of a specific moment in time. How is that not "information"?
WTF is an agent!??!?!
I wouldn’t call anything an “agent” because it’s a ridiculous term that means absolutely nothing.
I feel that one of the main problems I have when conversing with people about my personal theological beliefs is a lack of understanding of how I actually view the world.
I find that many people lack the ability to separate their thought processes from their own world view.
This happens the most when we begin to reach the very base assumptions of our world views because those are the parts of our beliefs that we use to interpret and judge reality.
When you reach this disconnect it is very hard to continue a meaningful conversation if the person is stuck in this box and not willing to step out of that box and allow their thought processes to change to see if what is being said is logically coherent with the presuppositions the other has put forth. So what is a world view?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: windword
God does not exist in any spatial dimensions. He encompasses all things. If we are looking at dimensions in the way string theory looks at things God would be the entire tenth dimension.
Ronald Nash defines a world view as a conceptual scheme by which we consciously or unconsciously place or fit everything we believe and by which we interpret and judge reality.