Baptized

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: Heresiarch

These are your words, Heres- not mine;

Sucks to be the one who doesn't believe and is baptized. Condemnation is bad for the soul.

Being born of water is obviously baptism and Jesus literally is saying you can't go to heaven without it and the Spirit. [/green]

You can do it yourself and do not the assistance of another human. In fact, you should have enough faith that you can ask God yourself and he will answer. You could even do it in the shower as long as you ask God to baptize you with the Spirit with a pure heart.[/green]



You are saying two different things. Anywho, I understand, good luck.

You edited everything that went with my comment, the accompanying scripture. But I stand by everything I said either way.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Heresiarch
Scripture says that whoever believes on the Son will have everlasting life. It doesn't say anything about water baptism for salvation.

In Jesus' exchange with Nicodemas, He was drawing a contrast between the TWO BIRTHS: the physical birth is by water, the spiritual birth is by faith.
Why would Jesus draw a contrast between synonymous ideas like spiritual birth and water baptism (outward depicting the inward)?

You don't have to worry about my salvation. I believe in Christ, and have shown it with water baptism (which has absolutely no impact on my salvation).

Salvation by water baptism is salvation by works. It contradicts grace.

It only contradicts grace if you have a fundamental lack of knowledge of scripture, and do not truly understand it.

You need the Holy Spirit to receive salvation, to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus words, not mine. So if Jesus contradicts your false doctrine it's because you have not received the Holy Spirit, and do not understand what grace is.

a reply to: Heresiarch

Ok. Lets start over. Prove to me that being "born of water" means water baptism, and not physical birth.

Since you are claiming that I lack the Holy Spirit, maybe you could back that claim up.

I'll give you a hint as to why you're wrong.

John 3:5“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus is talking about TWO BIRTHS here: that which is born of flesh, and that which is born of spirit.

Flesh is born of water, but those who are born of the Spirit are as though they are born of the wind.

John 3: 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

In order to ASSume that "born of water" means water baptism, you have to isolate John 3:5 from the rest of the Bible, and jump to an unfounded conclusion. What John 3 is really about is that salvation/rebirth comes by faith alone in the Son alone.

If you want to remain objective about this, then I suggest you use 1John 1:9 to confess your sins privately to God the Father (for example, your judgment of my faith), so that you may be cleansed of all unrighteousness and the Holy Spirit may guide you to the correct understanding.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Heresiarch

Ok. Lets start over. Prove to me that being "born of water" means water baptism, and not physical birth.

Since you are claiming that I lack the Holy Spirit, maybe you could back that claim up.

I think it's self explanatory. It is not my goal to interpret the Holy Bible for you. If you don't think that being born of water is the same thing as being baptized then it's YOUR job to prove it. To yourself though, I have already made up my mind. Born of the water is just a metaphor for baptism. But I don't care if you agree or not. That is your right.

a reply to: Heresiarch

I edited my post above to support my statements. You made accusations about my faith, and false claims about water baptism. I think the responsible thing for you to do would be to provide me with some support for your claims. As a representative of Christ on earth, it is your responsibility to answer the questions of a potential non-believer seeking the truth. You brought my faith into question, I think you owe me an explanation.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

All I am doing is providing my thoughts on the scriptures that speak of baptism. The scriptures have been provided, what they say, clearly, is that you do indeed need to be baptized in order to receive the Holy Spirit. Born of the water can only possibly mean baptism unless you want to invent your own meaning and apply it to the Bible. Born of water and of the Spirit. How did Jesus recieve the Spirit? By being baptized by John the Baptist.

If baptism was necessary for Christ to receive the Spirit, I don't think you are exempt. If being born of the water precedes being born of the Spirit, and it was at baptism that Jesus recieved the Spirit, then logically speaking, being born of water is obviously baptism. Jesus was baptized. He received the Holy Spirit. You would have to do some serious scripture twisting to make what is obviously a metaphor for baptism, mean anything else.

a reply to: Heresiarch

the context is John the Baptist saying the one who was greater was coming and judging he would baptized with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

The ones who believed it was the Holy Ghost, the ones who did not believe it was the fire of judgement.

But hey Jonbet/Mazini, you were already told yesterday or so in another thread. Why start a whole new thread? Trying to act like you aren't who you are?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Heresiarch

I edited my post above to support my statements. You made accusations about my faith, and false claims about water baptism. I think the responsible thing for you to do would be to provide me with some support for your claims. As a representative of Christ on earth, it is your responsibility to answer the questions of a potential non-believer seeking the truth. You brought my faith into question, I think you owe me an explanation.

You edited my statement to support your views. I made no false claims, everything I said is backed up by scripture. I did say you don't understand what scripture is saying and that is probably because you don't have the Spirit. If you did, you would not be ignoring what Jesus says about baptism. Simple logic, that is all.

a reply to: Heresiarch

Yes, I did edit my statement, with valid points, and I even made mention of my edit. What's the big deal? ATS is cool with it.

I'd like you to address the points I made about John 3. From one Christian to another, I'm asking you to please address my points objectively.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Who said I was a Christian? That is not anything I said. I don't agree with modern Christian interpretation of the Bible, I only consider myself a disciple of the Way of Jesus. Jesus' way was baptism, the Spirit and the Kingdom of God. You can address your own issues. I have said everything I have to say about baptism in my OP. The rest is for you to decide on your own. I don't want to force my beliefs on you, if you want my opinion you already have it.

a reply to: Heresiarch

How long have you been a disciple of Jesus' Way?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

All that matters is that I am. I have retroactively always been one for having been one for even one moment.

a reply to: Heresiarch

TextMatthew 3:16 And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were open to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, " This is my Beloved Son with whom I am well pleased."

Being baptized with water was not profitable for Jesus as He had no sin. Yet He was baptized with water but was it for repentance? What did the Son of God have done to repent? Most certainly it was not for salvation as He was the salvation

The thief on the cross was baptized with repentance as his confession to the Christ and was the baptism for salvation in knowing that after that day he could never sin again, and it was accepted by the Christ Jesus. Now whether or not the thief ever was baptized with water for repentance is not known but I only assume that he had never been baptized with water for repentance. The baptism of John was for repentance of sins committed and this was open rebellion against the National rabbinic authority as it did not involve the Temple and Levitical slaughter of a sin offering. The temple sacrifice was a not only an individual sin offering but was also a national collective salvation ritual.

But now the question that I put to you is this. Is water or for that matter the holy Spirit baptism a permanent once saved always saved condition? Or can one who has either one or both of the baptisms fall out of grace or from under that umbrella? There are some religions who differ quite a bit in that context. The Roman Catholics have a pretty good handle on that forgiveness thing as well as other protestant denominations. What is you opinion?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Once you are born of the water (baptized) you are born of the Spirit. Once you are of the Spirit you are like the wind.

a reply to: Seede

Jesus was baptized with water so he could fulfill his mission and in order to do that he needed the Holy Spirit. Jesus was baptized so he could receive the Holy Spirit, and since his baptism water baptism is no longer for repentance. Now baptism is how you receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation and baptism is necessary (even was for Jesus) to receive the Holy Spirit. Repentance is the old water baptism. Jesus transformed baptism from a ritual of repentance to one of re-birth.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Once you are born of the water (baptized) you are born of the Spirit. Once you are of the Spirit you are like the wind.

But "born of water" has nothing to do with baptism. Its physical birth. That's the point that you refuse to address.

How long have you been maturing in Christ?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Once you are born of the water (baptized) you are born of the Spirit. Once you are of the Spirit you are like the wind.

But "born of water" has nothing to do with baptism. Its physical birth. That's the point that you refuse to address.

How long have you been maturing in Christ?

I have addressed it, we just don't agree. I obviously equate being born of the water with baptism, and my equation is perfectly logical and grounded in scripture.

Your seperation of baptism and being born of the water is, to me, pseudeo-scriptural, a misinterpretation and not grounded in logic or basic common sense. If Jesus didn't mean baptism when he said born of water then he would not have said it in the same sentence as born of Spirit. You know as well as I that at the moment Jesus was baptized he received the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit and born of water/baptism go hand in hand.

Of course you're welcome to your opinion.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

And stop asking me about the duration of my faith, which I have already told you I believe to be retroactive thus making your question entirely irrelevant.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


The only thing that is mentioned in the New Testament that makes water so important that you need to be born of it (water) IS baptism. If something else exists, other than baptism, which is symbolic of the flood of the Old Testament renewing the earth, it is not from the Bible.

You can save any attempts at arguing that baptism is not symbolic of the flood. I already know otherwise and you will simply be wasting your time.

a reply to: Heresiarch

Do you believe Jesus died for our sins?