Help identify this Apollo 12 Moon-UFO image

a reply to: easynow

I think you have been given huge resources, but just in case, here is another one.

Apollo image archive

originally posted by: Jonjonj
a reply to: easynow

I think you have been given huge resources, but just in case, here is another one.

Apollo image archive

Hey thanks but I'm not exactly sure what this means "have been given huge resources"

Do you see any images on that ASU website that resembles the picture shown in the video ?

"You've lost me, where did I present what image?"

originally posted by: easynow

This is You in the video ... correct ?

Link - www.youtube.com...

Yeah, in 1981. I shaved off the beard after STS-1 finally launched.

www.jamesoberg.com...

You're gonna have to stop making wild guesses about what I think or have done on this subject, and just ask me.

I have no idea where this image came from, I don't remember ever seeing it. But I had received Gordon's entirely satisfactory explanation five years earlier.

a reply to: JimOberg

I have no idea where this image came from, I don't remember ever seeing it.

Ok fair enough, thanks for answering.

I was hoping you had some info that would help identify the image.

Not sure contacting NOVA about a 35 year old documentary will produce much results. lol

Got any advice or suggestions on who to contact that could possibly help ?

originally posted by: [post=20530488]...
Got any advice or suggestions on who to contact that could possibly help ?

WGBH Boston produces most of the segments, they ought to have some documentation on the provenance of specific graphics they used. Is there a longer version anywhere on youtube where it's discussed.

I can ask Dick Gordon if you like, whether he's aware of any authentic images of the light. I think the voiced suspicion, above, that it's a depiction based on the description rather than an actual image is probably closer to the truth.

All Apollo flight imagery is logged, and video is catalogued in 'scene list' documents. If it's not already on line [see ALSJ] then it can be FOIA'ed, as I've done for shuttle image catalogs.

Have you google-image-searched for moonlight reflections off the ocean? There ought to be images from shuttle flights or even the space station. It would be helpful to find a few, for comparison, let's both look.

a reply to: JimOberg

WGBH Boston produces most of the segments, they ought to have some documentation on the provenance of specific graphics they used. Is there a longer version anywhere on youtube where it's discussed.

Ok thanks I will contact them and see what happens. I've seen most of the full copies of the documentary that are on youtube and I'm fairly certain there isn't any further discussion about the image.

I can ask Dick Gordon if you like, whether he's aware of any authentic images of the light. I think the voiced suspicion, above, that it's a depiction based on the description rather than an actual image is probably closer to the truth.

Yes please do ask him because according to the transcripts an attempt was made to get it on the 16mm camera. And of course It would be very interesting to hear what he has to say about it. It's certainly possible it is a depiction but also very possible it's a real image. Hopefully time will tell.

All Apollo flight imagery is logged, and video is catalogued in 'scene list' documents. If it's not already on line [see ALSJ] then it can be FOIA'ed, as I've done for shuttle image catalogs.

That may be true for the film cameras but I don't believe all the TV camera footage has been disclosed.

I have looked at the Pdf film catalog for the 70mm/magazine/53 B&W to see if any images were missing on LPI www.lpi.usra.edu... ... but the document was very difficult to read. Many of the pages were turned sideways so it became a daunting task.

Link - apollo.sese.asu.edu...

Maybe someone reading this thread will help out and take a look and compare the catalog-list to the imagery and see if they're all there or not. (I will make an attempt to do it again, time permitting of course)

Have you google-image-searched for moonlight reflections off the ocean? There ought to be images from shuttle flights or even the space station. It would be helpful to find a few, for comparison, let's both look.

Yes I did but never found any with Moonlight reflections,
I only found Moon shadows ...

Moon's Shadow on Earth During Solar Eclipse


Link - www.nasa.gov...


Yes it might be helpful to see some shuttle imagery of moonlight reflections off the ocean, but as you know, Apollo 12 was a lot further away from Earth at the time.

If you have any relevant Shuttle or ISS images please do post them.

a reply to: easynow

241:34:11 Conrad: I can't imagine what that is.
241:34:21 Weitz: We can't either. We're checking for possibilities.

Kind of puts to bed the idea that this is a reflection of the moon...doesn't it?

Or are highly intelligent NASA personnel, who are busy placing Human beings into space...really THAT stupid that they cannot discern a reflection?

Something more to this one, it seems.

originally posted by: easynow ...


>All Apollo flight imagery is logged, and video is catalogued in 'scene list' documents. If it's not already on line [see ALSJ] then it can be FOIA'ed, as I've done for shuttle image catalogs.>

That may be true for the film cameras but I don't believe all the TV camera footage has been disclosed.

....

Why?

Here's what I always found -- scene lists from sts-75 tether flyby videos. sorry for title typo.

www.jamesoberg.com...

a reply to: JimOberg

Why?

I still have a lot more research to do on that subject,
so answering that question today on a public forum isn't gonna happen.

Although I will say there are clues to be found if you look for them.

It would be helpful to find a few, for comparison, let's both look.

Did you find any reflection images yet ?

Maybe you can talk to your NASA friends about getting the current ISS crew to take some new pictures ?

Just a thought.

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: easynow

241:34:11 Conrad: I can't imagine what that is.
241:34:21 Weitz: We can't either. We're checking for possibilities.

Kind of puts to bed the idea that this is a reflection of the moon...doesn't it?

Or are highly intelligent NASA personnel, who are busy placing Human beings into space...really THAT stupid that they cannot discern a reflection?

Something more to this one, it seems.

With all the astronomy software now available to home users, seems to me somebody could actually do the math and demonstrate the reflection was plausible -- or not. I'm satisfied with Dick Gordon's comment, but it would be nice if doubters could run the data to show why they aren't.

a reply to: JimOberg

I'd like to review your statement again....

I have no idea where this image came from, I don't remember ever seeing it.

I thanked you for answering ... but after giving it some more thought,
I have to say this scenario really seems a bit unbelievable.

Your claiming you've never seen the image but you are in the video with the image.

How is that even possible ? You never seeing it before ?

Are you telling us you never watched the documentary even though you're in it ?



Does anyone else besides me think that's a little strange ?

My space artist buddy Don Davis offers this important contribution:

The Moons reflection was not captured on film but it was seen visually near the center of the night side of Earth during the eclipse.
Here is Alan Bean's painted recollection done decades after the event, note the bright and small Moon reflection at the center.

Here's the sky over Ceylon at the moment Apollo-12 was passing over -- the moon near zenith, where it would have to be to make a reflection on the ocean 26,000 miles below the spaceship. Courtesy heavens-above.com

Related to 'moon glint' and other strange space lights, here's a story I did for 'SEED' about ten years ago -- seedmagazine.com...

I've done some more thinking about this and I'm not convinced that they were looking at a reflected moon.

If you look at images showing the sun reflecting from oceans when taken from space, they don't tend to show a sharp well defined point - it's much more diffuse.

Here, for example, is one image taken by Apollo 12 from lunar orbit (AS12-51-7528) with the subsolar point in roughly the same area picked out by the transcripts:



Granted it's (obviously) daylight, but you don't see a bright obvious point of reflection. The moon is the same relative size as the sun from earth but is considerably less bright. The light source described by Apollo 12 is 'roughly the size of Venus', considerably smaller than the moon would be even if it was shown as a sharp point.

There are many photographs of a largely dark Earth taken from Apollo (including some from Apollo 12) and I haven't seen any of them show any kind of light from the moon as described in these transcripts.

As an example of what can be seen from orbit, this image show 'moon glint' taken from the ISS:



and it is very obviously not a sharp point of light.

That said the weather conditions at the time would have given a mostly clear ocean between India and SE Asia - here are two satellite images (the first of them a NIMBUS night-time Infra-Red) from roughly the same time:





Their estimates of what was beneath them may also have been slightly off, here's what was directly below the moon at the time:



The area that could have reflected the moon was cloudy, and they could easily have been seeing city lights.

I think the Apollo 12 crew and Houston's puzzlement is understandable - they would know what the moon's reflection should look like and how big it would be. What they were looking at is clearly not that, although there's nothing to say it wasn't the moon reflecting back off something else.

Do I think it was some sort of UFO?

No.

Do I think the photo in the video is actually from Apollo 12?

No.

Good work, a real contribution.

Easynow, the topic was worth raising, good for you, too.

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

The area that could have reflected the moon was cloudy, and they could easily have been seeing city lights.

Clouds have an extremely high albedo... about 0.9. What they may have seen was moonlight being reflected (albeit Lambertianally)off of cloud cover.

a reply to: easynow

I think I've figured it out:

a reply to: DJW001

Is that the back-up crew's spaceship that followed Apollo to the Moon and back ?

a reply to: easynow
hey,long time no see Easynow! how ya been doin.intersting pic ya got here,i keep an eye on this
see how it pans out for ya.