Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Lots of evasion and no facts, mines 'could be' submerged, the facilities 'could' have dissapeared, the background radiation could' have gone down.

What the hell did you expect?!?! I cant give any ANSWERS, can I? I gave POSSIBILITIES on what you concieve as impossible.

Or they had hyper advanced technology after 1000 years of nuclear experiments. Yet at no point did they build any cities anywhere except in India, never set things into space and all their artefacts were on the coast and submerged at the end of the ice age.

Very, very complicated. Ever heard of Occams Razor?

Yes I have, and occams razor doesnt apply to theories.

Who has said they never "set things" into space?

Besides, just because its an indian work, it doesnt mean its talking about *INDIA* all the time. What if this lost civilisation considered the whole of the eastern hemisphere as their territory?

Yes, its evasion again

[edit on 14-1-2005 by merka]

So what if they considred the whole eastern hermisphere as their territory? Doesnt make em real!

Why not research the facinating and real (notice that word there, its important!) cultures of ancient India rather than making up daft cultures that wouldnt even make the grade as bad sci fi?

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by The Vagabond I was beginning to think that dogmatic support of debunked theories was condoned here.

I find the subject very interesting adn the possibilities exciting. Wouldn't it be great if it were true!?

For sure. I first came to ATS because I believed in this stuff and wanted to learn about it- i wouldn't be here if it hadn't interested me. In fact I used to jab at Byrd for being a skeptic almost as badly as I jab at some believers today.
The theory isn't what bugs me. It's the dogma.

Excellent work on that translation by the way. I can see how someone would think 'hey, this Iron Bolt, it kinda sounds like a missile, especially since they seem to distinguish between it and what 'bowmen' shoot". But it gets reduced to a 'fine powder', a missle doesn't survive the strike, nor does it make pots crack and shatter without cause nor make goats bark like jackals.

If you notice, the pots cracking wasn't a result of the iron bolt exactly. It was one of a series of evil omens that accompanied the bolt. Omens occur other times in the Mahabharata, not always in conjunction with the supernatural. For example before the battle in the Drona Parva vultures assemble on the left side of one of the armies (or maybe it was the right) and that was an evil omen for the battle ahead.

The drawings weren't even included in the 1959 release of Vaimanika Shastra. They turned up in the 1979 english version

Interesting.

It was the most spectacular and hypocritical U-turn I have ever seen on ATS.

Vagabond is a hypocrit becuase he changed his mind? Weren't you saying earlier that you used to have real problems with gays but now you don't? Does that make you a hypocrit? Or does that make your current accusation of hypocrisy even more hypocritical?

I can only imagine what wonderful fun Indigo is having now that I've relieved myself of her incessant pseudo-intellectual merde. Maybe I should just change my signiture to "I'm right and Indigo is wrong" so I don't have to actually type a new post every time.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
So what if they considred the whole eastern hermisphere as their territory? Doesnt make em real!

Why not research the facinating and real (notice that word there, its important!) cultures of ancient India rather than making up daft cultures that wouldnt even make the grade as bad sci fi?

Why not CONSIDER (note: doesnt mean fanatical devotion to the fact they where real) an ancient culture that is more advanced that us?

At every single point in history we see the allknowing, allpowerfull and allarogant humans fall flat on their nose when they realize it wasnt like they thought it was. If its not the way the universe works, its the way the earth works. If its not the way the human evolved, its the way dinosaurs evolved. We stand corrected every freakin time.

I wont argue much more with you about the POSSIBILITY of this, as its pointless. I will make one final statement though.

History as they teach us is 100% likely to be incorrect one way or another.

"The perception of the absence of proof is no proof of the proof's absence."



[edit on 14-1-2005 by aryaputhra]

100% likely to be incorrect one way or another? meaning historians could be wrong? yes very likely, historians regularly find themselves to be wrong when new eidence emerges.

Doesnt make ancient civilisations with nuclear power though.

All im asking for a a shred of physical evidence that hasnt been debunked that suggests a hyper advanced civilisation existed anyhwhere in the world! And it must be physical in the sense that it isnt an ancient legend or a folk story or a mystic prophecy found by studying the spleens of antelopes! Is that too much to ask?

Originally posted by aryaputhra
"The perception of the absence of proof is no proof of the proof's absence."



[edit on 14-1-2005 by aryaputhra]

This completely ignores the function of proof. The absolute non-existance of proof need not be proven. The point of proof is to defeat the initial assumption that what is evident is true, which then puts "the ball in somone's court" as it were. If you understand the legal concept of prima facie evidence it would be helpful. (god i hope i didn't spell that wrong).

Stories from a corpus of texts that are largely untranslateand unreadible outside of sanskrit cannot be used as proof of anything.

Well, the ancient Indian texts are certainly not going to be in English now, are they? They can be used as proof, if what is translated, actually works. And according to a whole team of Indian scientists. It does.

In the tv example, you have placed a modern understanding on whatever the text describes, and have not descirbed television in any workable way. All you have is a translation that you are saying talks about mirrors and 'electricity' and 'chemicals'. I would be surprised if the texts had an understanding of electricity or chemicals and the atomic elements.

Actually, it is workable. A machine that recieves Light through and Mirror/lens, which is then converted into electricity and projected through a tube(naali) onto a chemical coated screen. Not only that it also gives the formula for creating the components of it. That's not science fiction; that's science.

And yes, these texts do have an understanding of chemicals and atomic elements.

According to Indian texts there were five main elements, fire, earth, water, air and ether. All elements, except ether, were believed to be physical and could be subdivided into miniscule particles until the last particle, that could not divided any further. This was called the Paramanu, or the atom.

Kanada, an ancient Indian scientist, who lived in 600 BC(2600 years ago) first put forward a systematic atomic theory, that was known as Vaisheshika-Sutra (Peculiarity Aphorism). He himself was influenced by the ancient texts. Kanada postulated that all substances were composed of unique parmanus's and had their own properties.

He further postlated that two parmanus of the same substance can be made to combine under a reaction to form a binary molecule, he called a Dwinuka. The Dwinuka assumed similar properties to the two parent parmanus. He said in the physical universe, all substances are made of a combination of parmanus and have their unique properties. He said that a change in temperature or heat can can cause such a reaction to occur.

He also said that an object feels heavier in water than in air, because the density of parmanus in water are heavier than the air. The additional density of the water takes on part of the weight of the object, so we only feel part of it's total weight. However, when it is in air, the density of parmanu in air is lesser, so we feel more of it's weight.

Are you surprised yet?

What weapon is this supposed to be like? It vaguely sounds like smart weapons that seek out a pre-programmed target. Or is sounds like a magic weapon a god made to attack his enemies.

It's not suppose to be like any modern weapon, because modern technology is not this advanced yet. The weapon seeks out thoughts.

There is an actual description of a smart weapon as well. When Krishna deploys an aastra that seeks out sound to down a cloaked enemy aircraft.

If nuclear weapons were being used there would probably (but not definitly, at least as far as I understand it) be evidence of that use, such as bizzare and unnatural ratios of radionuclides. or the slag left over from a city being bombed.

There are some claims of finding irradiated cities and vitrified glass and stones. I am not sure how credible they are, because so far I've only seen one source on it. Nonetheless, if it is true, what else do you want?

What is the history of the translation of this text? Do all translations have this take on it, or just one?

So far the only translation of the Mahabharata that is available to me is the one translated by the late 19th century Gangully on sacred-text.com. However, there are reoccuring descriptions, such as:

Iron bolt
Messenger of death
Reduced to ashes the Vrishni and Andhakas
Birds impelled
Earthenware pottery broke without apparent cause

The only major differences is the meteroite and "rats eating hairs and nails of sleeping people" It sounds like a period bias to me. I can see how easy it would be for a 19th century translator to mistake the efflugence of ten thousand suns, and smoke and fire in the sky, to be a meteorite. And sudden decaying hair and nails, to be rats.

Anyway, we could go on forever with this; so we really need more translations to compare.

on one of two possibilities on the source document
2. The contents were "channelled" or "psychically transmitted" to the
author from long dead rishis, sages, "scientists" or whatever. This
interpretation makes some sense because all throughout the text there are subsections (in each main section that is devoted to a single topic) in
each main section where it is said, "Maharishi so-and-so says:". Often
what these other people say are openenly admitted as contradictory in some (minor) details what a different sage has said on the topic
under discussion; else these other people just add additional information
appropriate to that section of the overall text. So the text clearly
reads as a wierd discussion among dead sages, rishis, scientists or
whatever all simultaneously contributing to the overall text.

I can understand how it would be difficult to accept channeled or psychically recieved texts. However, these texts have also documented evidence in the past. So there are references to corroborate the authenticity. And the fact that the prescribed alloys can be fabricated by modern scientists, is irrefutable. Unless of course, you think all these Indian scientists are lying.

on the drawings
the diagrams (produced much more recently I might add) of the three
types of Vimana are strange. One looks like it could fly at a fast rate
(it is saucer shaped). The others simply cannot -- one is a four-sided
pyramid with a crystal on top and propellers on all four sides. The
intended direction of flight is clearly such that the point of the pyramid
faces up (against the direction of gravity) and the base down.

The actual illustrations did not exist in the original VS texts according to researchers. It is most likely that the illustrations were just Shastry attempting to make sense of it with his own imagination.

Lots of mythological/historical texts talk about flying things. This does not mean that there were advanced jets flitting about. Moreover, if you feel that the indian desciptions are valid, what about other descriptions from other cultures?

Well, exactly, flying machines are a common features of all cultures, and they all refer to is as part of their history. So, it's highly arrogant of us to call it mythology and dismiss it. Henceforth, why I am insisting on being open-minded and to test the veracity of this mythology as history.

Now, the reason I have singled out the Indian civilization, is simply because it has the most detailed existing records. It is a given that if the hi-tech ancient Indian civilization existed, then so did others.

I am unfamiliar with this excavation, but from what I understand Rao is recognized as being an accomplished underwater archaeologist. What does that have to do with advanced technology tho? Did his researches confirm the method of destruction in the vedic text?

Dr Rao discovered the city of Dwarika.

Why is it supposed to be talking about the speed of light? It says the speed of the sun, which doesn't even move, except in appearance to move across the sky?

The sun is what gives us light. The light reaches us at 2,220 yognas in a half a nimesa. It's pretty darn obvious it is talking about the speed of light. It is the actual accurate figure for the speed of light. In fact according to vedas; light has a finite speed. In western science, much less any figures for the speed of light, it was considered infinite until Olaf Roemer calculated it in 1676.

I honestly don't see how anyone can consider all of that irefutable proof of anything, unless one has very low values of proof. All that has been done is to find some interesting descriptions that could very well be ancient man's way of thinking of advanced technology. But that is certainly not the only explanation for the flying stuff and big fires and weird apparatii in the descriptions above. Also, if that is the explanation one looks for, then it brings up the problem of having this text corrupted throughout by people who didn't understand what they were talking about, and yet is also supposed to be reliable enough to recreate these things. And then of course there is the problem of this stuff not actually being re-created. When india built its nukes, it didn't build these super-nukes. It built regular old nukes. Its airforce isn't made up of supersonice chakra powered composite technology vimanas, but regular old jets. I understand that you are saying the knowledge was lost, but they forget how to make, say, guns, but not the speed of light in a vaccuum? And then do nothing with it?

The Indian government did not take VS serious until an Italian scientist at an ISRO meeting pointed it out for them. It took the efforts of independent researchers over decades to actually make any headway with the Indian government and scientific community. It is only recently that Indian scientists and governments are studying and applying the VS and other sankrit documents.

It is rumoured, though something that cannot be substanitated, that WWII Nazi scientists were very fascinated by ancient sankrit documents and Hitler sent expeditions into Tibet to find ancient sankrit documents. It cannot really be denied that a lot of aerospace technology, like pulse-jets and atomic weapon(theory) came from Germany. However, Indian scientists have reported success with the VS and built certain yantras described in it.

However, the more advanced yantras, like anti gravity or mercury propulsion, are still beyond the grasp of scientists.

The major problem of course is that there is no evidence of the system that would be required to make all this. The towns, the production shops, the mines, the processing plants, the factories, the manufacturing plants, the smelting plants, the refineries, the schools to train people to work in these industries and the universitiyes and scientific establishment to carry on the basic research required for all of it. And on top of that, these kinds of things can't reasonably be said to just pop up out of nothing, there'd be a development process, an upbuilding of a society. Why would the primitive remains of tpre-technological societies survive the catastrophe, but not the 'advanced ancient tech', or even the ancient tech that is similar to and more primitive than modern tech? There'd have to be an unreasonably selective destruction of evidence, some bizzare wipe out that happens to leave, not just no evidence of its occurance, but evidence of other history that was going on at the time, and one that better fits the history of the rest of the world than the actual history?

An extraordinary thing like that would require quite a bit more than 'references'.

Well, ancient Indian civilization is described as a bizarre dictatomy of the elite having very advanced technology, often gifted to them by the heavenly races and the lower class being lesser sophisticated. Not exactly primitive though. This is the common theme in all world mythology. Heavenly races from others parts of the universe that intermingle with human society, often using humans as slave labor.

For instance, in the example I cited earlier in this post of the evil salva flying around in a cloaked vimana. There is also the peculiarity of Salva using tree trunks, snakes and boulders to bomb the armies. This is because Salva was a human king who had acquired the vimana from another race of beings called the Dhanvas.

It is certainly interesting that wars would be fought on battlefields with maces, swords, bows and arrows, elephants. Yet, at the same time, certain elite would have weapons of advanced technology and use special yantras. Arjuna acquired all his weapons from the god Indra.

[edit on 14-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
100% likely to be incorrect one way or another? meaning historians could be wrong? yes very likely, historians regularly find themselves to be wrong when new eidence emerges.

Doesnt make ancient civilisations with nuclear power though.

All im asking for a a shred of physical evidence that hasnt been debunked that suggests a hyper advanced civilisation existed anyhwhere in the world! And it must be physical in the sense that it isnt an ancient legend or a folk story or a mystic prophecy found by studying the spleens of antelopes! Is that too much to ask?

You are blind, the shred......lol is hard to miss
It is a structure that no modern engineer or scientist has credibly explained. It contains 2.3 million meticulously cut blocks. is 200 times more precisely square than modern buildings, and contains a 200 ton granite slab, 225 feet up, which is a puzzling feat in itself. The logistics of duplicating it as perfectly as the original are beyond todays best minds.
If that is not a 'shred' I give up.
You don't want proof, you want to think that no one ever was as great as us.....well I say they were far greater.

btw, should you find a legitimate plan for how we could copy it, please let me know....I haven't yet....in 20 years.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
You are blind, the shred......lol is hard to miss
It is a structure that no modern engineer or scientist has credibly explained. It contains 2.3 million meticulously cut blocks. is 200 times more precisely square than modern buildings, and contains a 200 ton granite slab, 225 feet up, which is a puzzling feat in itself. The logistics of duplicating it as perfectly as the original are beyond todays best minds.

What about www.theforgottentechnology.com do you not understand?
We know how the did it. Extremely clever use of very basic mechanical principles. If you would like to come to CA, buy the materials, and pay me suitable wages, my 2 brothers and I, construction workers all, will be happy to pour a series of large cement slabs and stack them in whatever pattern you like using counterweights, levers, and fulcrums. Otherwise just look at the pictures I have linked you to.

If that is not a 'shred' I give up.

Very well, I accept your surrender.

You don't want proof, you want to think that no one ever was as great as us.....well I say they were far greater.

btw, should you find a legitimate plan for how we could copy it, please let me know....I haven't yet....in 20 years.

Well for one thing "greater than us" is a little subjective. I dont think of us as being that great culturally speaking. I just don't happen to think that past civilizations were around for long enough to have the technology we have. It's not a matter of greatness. I think that several civilizations of the past had such qualities as would quite possibly have enabled them to be our superiors if we did not have the benefit of coming much later and being able to expand on their discoveries.

indigo and vagabond & others, I am enjoying the debate, great discussion

here's some info on ancient indian civilizations.
www.harappa.com...
www.kamat.com...
www.crystallotus.com...
www.mnsu.edu...


here's a story on the indian city with radiation
www.ufoarea.com...

could ancients fly?
www.ufoarea.com...

evidence for atomic warfare, not just india?
www.ufoarea.com...



[edit on 1-14-2005 by worldwatcher]

I was so incredibly tired when I submitted that post that I never completed a thought. I also said something really stupid about Piri Reis' name. Piri doesn't mean Admiral- Reis does. I got it backwards.

I said there were several ways to verify that the southern landmass was a continuation of South America, then only listed one- terrain features.

The other way you can tell is through notations made by the Admiral himself in the margins of the map. The notes detail the circumstances under which several islands were reported- most of them by the portugese.

Last but not least, you might notice that Cuba is missing from the map, while hispanola is turned 90 degrees on its side.
Columbus made his crew swear that Cuba was a promontory of the mainland (Asia).
Also, believing at first that he had reached Asia, he mapped Hispanola in accordance with the vague descriptions of Japan which were available at that time (Japan was virtually mythical at that point). That's why Hispanola is turned long-ways.

So- Piri Reis made his map using Portugese charts and charts provided by Columbus.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Well, the ancient Indian texts are certainly not going to be in English now, are they?

Indeed, they will not, this means that they allways have to be re-translated and re-interpreted.

They can be used as proof, if what is translated, actually works. And according to a whole team of Indian scientists. It does.

I have not seen any examples of these texts giving yeilding advanced tech.

Not only that it also gives the formula for creating the components of it. That's not science fiction; that's science.

Whats the formula?

According to Indian texts there were five main elements, fire, earth, water, air and ether.

This demonstrates that they do not have an understanding of the elements or their properties. It also demonstrates that they were using a conception of the 'elemental' that is rather universal, not technologically advanced.

All elements, except ether, were believed to be physical and could be subdivided into miniscule particles until the last particle, that could not divided any further. This was called the Paramnu, or the atom.

This is simply not what an atom is. You can't subdivide 'fire' and get atoms. Subdividing water only gives you water molecules, until you smash the molecule itself, which yeilds actual elements that are not water. This indian conception is similar to the idea that everything is made up of different proportions of earth/air/fire/water etc, which is not an atomic theory. Democritus' atomic theory is much more advanced and prescient than this.

Kanada postulated that all substances were composed of unique parmanus's and had their own properties.

This is differnt from the above earth/wind/fire distinction, and is much more similar to democritus' conception. If the dates are accurate then it looks like Kanada preceded Democritus
Greek Atomic Theory

He further postlated that two parmanus of the same substance can be made to combine under a reaction to form a binary molecule, he called a Dwinuka. The Dwinuka assumed similar properties to the two parent parmanus.

Absolutely nothing like atomic science. If they beleived this then they had no understanding of chemistry. Oxygen and Hydrogen, explosive gases, combine to form water, which supresses fire. The properties of the molecules are not related to the properties of the atoms. Also, this is 600 BC, I thought you were saying that this knowledge was largely lost or only contained in truly ancient scriptures after the Catastrophic War?

He also said that an object feels heavier in water than in air, because the density of parmanus in water are heavier than the air.

Water is heavier than air, and stuff feels lighter in water, check.

Are you surprised yet?

I am dissapointed. I am also interested in Kanada's atomic theory and the connectiosn with greek atomism. However, based on your poor takes of the more controversial texts, I fear that you may also be pushing this text.

There is an actual description of a smart weapon as well. When Krishna deploys an aastra that seeks out sound to down a cloaked enemy aircraft.

Describe how you distinguish between 'smart weapons' and magic weapons?

Nonetheless, if it is true, what else do you want?

Evidence.

The only major differences is the meteroite and "rats eating hairs and nails of sleeping people" It sounds like a period bias to me. I can see how easy it would be for a 19th century translator to mistake the efflugence of ten thousand suns, and smoke and fire in the sky, to be a meteorite. And sudden decaying hair and nails, to be rats.

Similarly, a person in the modern period might mistake these descriptions for advanced technology. Also, the first bias, exchanging a meterorite or missle for the 'iron bolt' is understandable enough. But the rats bias, that is more than bias. Thats fraud, thats inserting words that simply do not exist. If the sanskrit text says c.f. 'peoples hair and nails fell out' and a translator translates as 'rats ate peoples hair when they slept', well, the original text will bear it out as fraud. I think that one cannot suggest, therefore, that it was a fraudulent insertion.

I can understand how it would be difficult to accept channeled or psychically recieved texts. However, these texts have also documented evidence in the past.

Such as what? And why does correctness on some things imply correctness on all things?

And the fact that the prescribed alloys can be fabricated by modern scientists, is irrefutable.

What portion of the text you linked to quotes the procedure outlined in the vedic text and where is the demonstration of the method working?

Unless of course, you think all these Indian scientists are lying.

I suspect that they have allowed their own bias to creep into their results, however I would like to see the relevant published papers before I actually suggest that that is the case.

The actual illustrations did not exist in the original VS texts according to researchers. It is most likely that the illustrations were just Shastry attempting to make sense of it with his own imagination.

What else did shastry add?

Well, exactly, flying machines are a common features of all cultures, and they all refer to is as part of their history. So, it's highly arrogant of us to call it mythology and dismiss it. Henceforth, why I am insisting on being open-minded and to test the veracity of this mythology as history.

All well and good, however you have no methodology for testing these stories. Surely not ever 'myth' is passed on ancient science textbooks. Which are real and which are just myth? By what method do you distinguish between them?

is simply because it has the most detailed existing records

There are only, however, a few texts that are thuroughly translated. The mahbatra hasn't been translated in full, as far as I am aware.

It is a given that if the hi-tech ancient Indian civilization existed, then so did others.

I agree that its sufficient to demonstrate technology more advanced than todays for one civilization in order to reasonably talk about others having it, yes.

Did his researches confirm the method of destruction in the vedic text?

Dr Rao discovered the city of Dwarika.
So his researches did not infact confirm the method of destruction noted in the text then? The discovery of an ancient city mentioned in an ancient text does not prove that everything that text talks about is true. It merely demonstrates that the ancient authors (or modern ones as the channeled text suggests in some cases)knew about an ancient city. Similarly, Schliemann's discovery of Troy does not prove that Odysseyus was entranced by Sirene, nor that Dido immolated herself and that her curse destroyed the roman empire, nor that the ancient greeks had cloaking devices. Heck, the Iliad doesn't even seem to get the ancient technology correct, it puts the heros in the armour of the time that the epic was composed, which is different from the time that the epic was supposed to have occured. So its not even reliable for rather mundane things.

The sun is what gives us light.

If they understood light enough to calculate its speed I would think that they'd have a name for it and use that name, rather than erronesouly calling it the 'sun'.

The light reaches us at 2,220 yognas in a half a nimesa.
It's pretty darn obvious it is talking about the speed of light.

Obvious? Its written in a language thats thousands of years old. There are no other interpretations of the text?

was considered infinite until Olaf Roemer calculated it in 1676.

And yet you said it requires advanced tech to calculate it. What did Roemer have that the ancient indians didn't? Nevertheless, I would be surprised to find out that they figured it out. How come they never made use of it?

The Indian government did not take VS serious until an Italian scientist at an ISRO meeting pointed it out for them.

Odd then, that an italian who had to learn sanskrit and science was the one to realize these 'advanced techs', and not the people writting them.

It is rumoured, though something that cannot be substanitated, that WWII Nazi scientists were very fascinated by ancient sankrit documents and Hitler sent expeditions into Tibet to find ancient sankrit documents. It cannot really be denied that a lot of aerospace technology, like pulse-jets and atomic weapon(theory) came from Germany.

But there is nothing suggesting that they used those documents. Jet engine technology and rocket technology did not pop up ad hoc, they had to be developed.

However, Indian scientists have reported success with the VS and built certain yantras described in it.

Again, I would like to see the actual reports of the objects built and the corresponding procedure in the texts. I suspect that the people doing this are reading a text, assuming it must've meant this or that, and then figuring out a way to build it.

However, the more advanced yantras, like anti gravity

Where is there a description of the law of gravity in these ancient texts? If they are building machines then they must at least know and record that. Also, if the texts accurately describe how to build the devices, as you noted above with the simpler machines, then they would result in being able to build advanced technology too. The fact that no advanced technologies are comming out of this would fit with my suggestion above.

Heavenly races from others parts of the universe that intermingle with human society, often using humans as slave labor.

I do not doubt that one can make any idea refutation proof. However, if the events were such that they erased all evidence of their occurance, then how can one state that they occured? Surely, if these guys could record these texts, describing how to make the tech, and preserve these texts thru the ages, they'd've been able to preserve some of the flying machines and such, or, heck, they'd be able to preserve the secret of making concrete, or at least iron age technology.

It is certainly interesting that wars would be fought on battlefields with maces, swords, bows and arrows, elephants. Yet, at the same time, certain elite would have weapons of advanced technology and use special yantras.

It should not be expected that the rulers have great weapons while the masses have less impressive ones. King Arthur had excalibre, everyone else had swords and sticks. The hittites had advanced battle wagons, their subjects had darts. The Persians had wicker shields, the greeks iron tipped spears. None of this requires alien intervention and therefore neither does a disparity of tech amoung the indians. And, again, these other texts describe gods interfereing with the battle, transporting humans, knocking people over, etc, etc. Its understood that this is mythology. These indian texts are apparently no different, and they certainly can not sensibly be presented as irrefutable evidence of ancient technology more advanced than today.

[edit on 14-1-2005 by Nygdan]

Indeed, they will not, this means that they allways have to be re-translated and re-interpreted.

Well, yes, that is normally what is done with foreign language texts. However, as I said to Vagabond earlier, Sanskrit is hardly an unknown language and there exists many references that one use to compare. Further, Sankrit is the mother language of all Indo-European languages.

I have not seen any examples of these texts giving yeilding advanced tech.

I have produced them already. Here it is again:

Indian scientists, physicists chemists at various institutes and centres of technology have claimed to have succesfully have created the alloys and materials using the prescribed formulas in the VS, like; Chumbakamani, Panchadhara-loha and Paragrandhika-drava.

1999 a scientific team, sponsored by Indian National Science Academy, INSA was commisioned to investigate the VS. The task force consisted of Dr. Dongre, P.G.College of Varanasi, Dr.P.Ramachandra Rao, Director of National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur and others. . Their report relates to development of a novel spectrometer / monochromeater called ‘Dwanta Pramapaka Yantra’ and an Infra-Red transparent material (non-hygroscopic) called ‘Prakasha Stambhana bida’

Whats the formula?

If you read the thesis I posted on the VS it details of some the metallurgical formulas.

According to Indian texts there were five main elements, fire, earth, water, air and ether.

This demonstrates that they do not have an understanding of the elements or their properties. It also demonstrates that they were using a conception of the 'elemental' that is rather universal, not technologically advanced.

No, it doesn't. What you understand to be elements is a modern prejudice, where an element is catagorized by it's atomic number. According to ancient Indians the elements were catagorized under 5 main elements, which were themselves(except ether) formed of atoms and various combinations of these atoms formed the material universe. Kanada expounded upon this and systematized the knowledge.

This is simply not what an atom is. You can't subdivide 'fire' and get atoms. Subdividing water only gives you water molecules, until you smash the molecule itself, which yeilds actual elements that are not water. This indian conception is similar to the idea that everything is made up of different proportions of earth/air/fire/water etc, which is not an atomic theory. Democritus' atomic theory is much more advanced and prescient than this.

Light is actually made up of tiny packets of quanta or photons. So, yes, it is made of particles. And energy according to quantum mechanics is made of discreet multiples.

Further, water is not water without hydrogen and oxygen, and the Indians are indeed correct in saying that it can be subdivided until the atoms.

Absolutely nothing like atomic science. If they beleived this then they had no understanding of chemistry. Oxygen and Hydrogen, explosive gases, combine to form water, which supresses fire. The properties of the molecules are not related to the properties of the atoms. Also, this is 600 BC, I thought you were saying that this knowledge was largely lost or only contained in truly ancient scriptures after the Catastrophic War?

What do you mean it's absolutely nothing like atomic science? Kanada has explictly said that atoms combine under chemical reactions to form matter. The water does indeed have properties of the the Oxygen and Hydrogen atoms in it. As I said water is not water without hydrogen and oxygen. Again, what you understand to be properties, is a modern bias.

He is also absolutely correct that all substances have their own unique atoms.

I am dissapointed. I am also interested in Kanada's atomic theory and the connectiosn with greek atomism. However, based on your poor takes of the more controversial texts, I fear that you may also be pushing this text.

The greeks invaded India just before they propounded their ideas on atoms, did they not? Check. I am not sure what there is to be disappointed about. You asked for an understanding of atomic and chemical theory, and I gave it to you.

Describe how you distinguish between 'smart weapons' and magic weapons?

A magic weapon would be if Krishna brought down the aircraft by his thought power, because that invokes the power of the supernatural. However, it is more mundane than that. He uses a weapon that seeks out sound. This is supposedly the incarnation of God according to the Mahabharatas. There are weapons in modern science that seek out heat.

Evidence.

And what is evidence?

Similarly, a person in the modern period might mistake these descriptions for advanced technology.

If a translator interpreted as a figher jet, dropping a nuclear weapon. It wouldn't be credible at all. If, however the passage was like the one in Childress book, it would be descripitive enough to say nuclear weapon.

But the rats bias, that is more than bias. Thats fraud, thats inserting words that simply do not exist. If the sanskrit text says c.f. 'peoples hair and nails fell out' and a translator translates as 'rats ate peoples hair when they slept', well, the original text will bear it out as fraud. I think that one cannot suggest, therefore, that it was a fraudulent insertion.

Well, that is my point. I don't think it is fraud as much as guessing.

Such as what? And why does correctness on some things imply correctness on all things?

I've already explained it in an earlier post.

I suspect that they have allowed their own bias to creep into their results, however I would like to see the relevant published papers before I actually suggest that that is the case.

You don't get it, do you? The texts are not translated by the scientists, but by a team of Sanskrit scholars. The translation is then given to the scientists and they follow it the formula -- and presto -- chango -- they form the material/alloy described. And I'm sorry but I don't have the papers for you. You will have to request them yourself.

What else did shastry add?

He did not really add anything. He was trying to draw the vimana scehmatics as they were described.

All well and good, however you have no methodology for testing these stories. Surely not ever 'myth' is passed on ancient science textbooks. Which are real and which are just myth? By what method do you distinguish between them?

By analysing and comparing.

There are only, however, a few texts that are thuroughly translated. The mahbatra hasn't been translated in full, as far as I am aware.

Yes, it has. There is an entire Mahabharata translation on sacred-text.com. There are probably other translations too somewhere. Unless Childress made up his version, wouldn't that classify as fraud?

So his researches did not infact confirm the method of destruction noted in the text then? The discovery of an ancient city mentioned in an ancient text does not prove that everything that text talks about is true.

The city had sunk into the ocean. What it proves is that Mahabharata is actually based on history. The Mahabharata not only talk about the city being constructed, but it also speaks about is sinking. No, this does not prove everything is true about it. It just gives it more credibility.

If they understood light enough to calculate its speed I would think that they'd have a name for it and use that name, rather than erronesouly calling it the 'sun'.

This passage was in the Rig Veda, which is a devotional and spiritual text, as opposed to a scientific one. It's praising the sun by saying "You who are great. You who traverse 2,220 yognas in half a nimesa"

Obvious? Its written in a language thats thousands of years old. There are no other interpretations of the text?

Again, there do exist references to compare. I've already explained the units in my original post.

And yet you said it requires advanced tech to calculate it. What did Roemer have that the ancient indians didn't? Nevertheless, I would be surprised to find out that they figured it out. How come they never made use of it?

No, I said it requires advanced technology to calculate an accurate figure for the speed of light. Roemers calculation was 125,000 miles per second.

And they did they make use of it - according to the VS talks, which about lasers, television, scanning, holograms and cloaking.

Odd then, that an italian who had to learn sanskrit and science was the one to realize these 'advanced techs', and not the people writting them.

The modern Indian government and scientists did not write the texts.

But there is nothing suggesting that they used those documents. Jet engine technology and rocket technology did not pop up ad hoc, they had to be developed.

Well, the VS actually talks about pulse jet engines, apparently.

Again, I would like to see the actual reports of the objects built and the corresponding procedure in the texts. I suspect that the people doing this are reading a text, assuming it must've meant this or that, and then figuring out a way to build it.

You cannot accidentally make pizza if you're trying to make cake. It does not work like that. If they actually made the materials described, then it's only because it is real.

Where is there a description of the law of gravity in these ancient texts? If they are building machines then they must at least know and record that. Also, if the texts accurately describe how to build the devices, as you noted above with the simpler machines, then they would result in being able to build advanced technology too. The fact that no advanced technologies are comming out of this would fit with my suggestion above.

If I read a book on how to develop a jet propulsion engine or a microchip. It does not mean I will be able to do it in a few years, or in a decade, or ever. It does appear India does appear to be testing/planning quite advanced technology now days, ever since the VS has been studied on a high level,from shape memory alloys, nanomedicine to hypersonic engines, microwave and EM weapons and space-based weapons. Of course that could always be the aliens

The Vimanas do seem to work on some kind of anti-gravity technology, or at least some of them. They don't need run ways, they can lift of vertically, turn sideways, remain motionless in mid-air, zig-zag, speed etc.

I do not doubt that one can make any idea refutation proof. However, if the events were such that they erased all evidence of their occurance, then how can one state that they occured? Surely, if these guys could record these texts, describing how to make the tech, and preserve these texts thru the ages, they'd've been able to preserve some of the flying machines and such, or, heck, they'd be able to preserve the secret of making concrete, or at least iron age technology.

Maybe they did, and if a government got a hold of them, I doubt they would tell the public about it. It's a force multiplier.

It should not be expected that the rulers have great weapons while the masses have less impressive ones. King Arthur had excalibre, everyone else had swords and sticks. The hittites had advanced battle wagons, their subjects had darts. The Persians had wicker shields, the greeks iron tipped spears. None of this requires alien intervention and therefore neither does a disparity of tech amoung the indians. And, again, these other texts describe gods interfereing with the battle, transporting humans, knocking people over, etc, etc. Its understood that this is mythology. These indian texts are apparently no different, and they certainly can not sensibly be presented as irrefutable evidence of ancient technology more advanced than today.

The difference here is while the foot solider has a sword or a spear, the elite have flying aircraft, missiles and weapons of mass destruction. However, very few were elite. Not all kings and queens had these weapons. They acquired them from the heavenly races. The reason the god Indra gave Arjuna all his advanced weapons and his advanced vimanas, because he was actually his father. Krishna was said to have all the weapons and knew all the sciences. That is why when the Mahabharata war was fought, the Kuruvs demanded that Krishna should not fight, because they knew he could not be beaten. So Krishna promised he would not fight and instead became Arjuna charioteer.

[edit on 14-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

First of all Vagabond, if you can track back our discussion from Ancient Nuclear war, you made a scandalizing comment regarding my country, and you were the starter of it!

Listen to what you're saying. You are arguing that the clever application of basic mechanical principals was beyond ancient man, and therefore ancient man must have used far superior technology. What field do you plan to make 5 times my income in? My guess is you'll end up as a plant manager at Granite Construction- they aren't too quick on the uptake. I wish I was kidding, but I've seen one of these men needing to have basic subtraction explained to him.

VAgabond!!! In what manner did u take my theory??? I aint that dumb to say something like that!
What I meant was, if on todays date i was to ask you to build a pyramid, would you take the approach of using basic levers and fulcrums and spend your life time making one pyramid, or would you use heavy machinery and automated control systems? Obviously the latter. What I wanted to prove was exactly this, that u are taking a the-today-infrastructure view on developing nuclear weapons. The same way while taking the case of nuclear weapons, one could have been built with basic science and without the use of any ultra-huge infra structure. Indian Nuclear test on may 18 1974 was done in extreme crude state after the chinese had carried out their tests. That time India didnt have the extensive infrastructure either, but the aim was to match the chinese.
Vagabond, I think you should consider Plant manager job for yourself... people like you with ample free time and brains in knees will make good deal there. And anyway it seems you took my five-times income promise too much on ur heart... Relax buddy we will talk about that 5 years from now, or maybe I'll show up to u personally :p

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
with foreign language texts. However, as I said to Vagabond earlier,

Yet the major corpus of the sanksrit texts are inaccesible to even indian researchers, let alone the rest of the world. This is important becuase it shows that there are major difficulties translating these texts, special to them and beyond what one normally encounters in translating from say english to french and vice versa.

Sankrit is the mother language of all Indo-European languages

Sanskrit is a very old language in the IE family, but not the mother language.

have produced them already. Here it is again

The portion you have given is meaningless. The link you gave was to a very large and meandering document. What portions specifically relate to the procedure outlined in the texts and the products that resulted? How much did the researchers have to bring in from outside the texts?

What you understand to be elements is a modern prejudice, where an element is catagorized by it's atomic number

Atomic number is relevant because it dictates the properties of the elements. If you are claiming that modern science is simply wrong and that indian 'vedic science' is correct, then, well, what sort of discussion can be had anyway? Kandana says you can combine two atoms to get a 'bi-atomic' particle that has properties similar to its parts. Atomic science says that you can take two portions of elemental oxygen and one portion of elemental hydrogen and getwater, which has none of the characteristics of those constituent explosive gases. Which one is right? Well, water can be split and the elements cna be combined to make it. I have never heard of 'vedic technology' that reduces water to its consituent 'water atoms' or anything of the sort. You said that these texts have information on chemistry, but are now clarifying by saying that the don't, that rather they have information on a secret science above and beyond the incorrect understandings of modern chemistry.

So, yes, it is made of particles

Photons are neither particles nor waves.

And energy according to quantum mechanics is made of discreet multiples.

this is incorrect, i don't know where you are getting it from. quantum phyiscs recognizes that forces often have force carriers, but thats not quite like what you are citing as being in the texts.

Further, water is not water without hydrogen and oxygen, and the Indians are indeed correct in saying that it can be subdivided until the atoms.

Precisely. There is no such thing as atomic water. Or atomic earth. Or elemental wind. These are things made up of other, actual, atoms, unrealized by this 'vedic science'.

Kanada has explictly said that atoms combine under chemical reactions to form matter

Incorrect. He has said that elements (like earth wind water fire) link ,sometimes because of heat, and make 'bi-atoms', that have properties like their parts. Combine a water atom with an earth atom in a hot place and you got something with watery and earthy properties. This is nothing like what chemistry talks about, where the characteristics of the atoms are nothing like the compounds, which certainly combine in more than pairs.

He is also absolutely correct that all substances have their own unique atoms

This is his largest and most incorrect flaw. Wood is not made up of wood atoms. Rock is not made up of rock atoms. Light is made up of photons, granted. Similarly, Iron is made up of Iron, etc etc. But all substances do not have their own atoms.

The greeks invaded India just before they propounded their ideas on atoms, did they not?

This is irrelevant.

I am not what there is to be disappointed aboutYou asked for an understanding of atomic and chemical theory, and I gave it to you.
.

You have demonstrated that there is, disappointingly, not irefutable proof of ancient high technology nor even that there is an understanding of atomic science and chemistry in these texts.

And what is evidence?

Something that is at least reasonbly convincing.

Well, that is my point. I don't think it is fraud as much as guessing.

I think you need to refer to the original text before you can say that the translators added that it was rats gnawing on sleeping peoples hair.

You don't get it, do you? The texts are not translated by the scientists, but by a team of Sanskrit scholars. The translation is then given to the scientists and they follow it the formula

If that is indeed what happens then I agree it woudl be interesting. But apparently you don't have anything to demonstrate this, as you told me to 'request the papers for myself'. The assertion is so ludicrous on its face that I would not waste my time trying to find these 'papers', because it would probably turn out to be bunk, just like the original claim you made ot present 'irefutable proof' of these things in this thread. You have not done that, and so much as admit it above.

By analysing and comparing.

How can you analyse and compare if you are accepting uncritically anything that they say as supportive of the claim you are seeking to research?

Yes, it has. There is an entire Mahabharata translation on sacred-text.com

My mistake. I was thinking of a conversation on the topic. Apparently there are two complete translations, one from the 1800s and one no later than 1940.

The city had sunk into the ocean. What it proves is that Mahabharata is actually based on history

It proves it is not entirely composed of fables, but not that its an historical document.

I've already explained the units in my original post

My question is how loose are the units tho, how many other intrepretations are there, and how come no one realized that it was supposed to mean the speed of light?

The modern Indian government and scientists did not write the texts.

They publish no government copies of it?

You cannot accidentally make pizza if you're trying to make cake.

The analogy does not apply.

If they actually made the materials described, then it's only because it is real.

This can easily be resolved if you can cite the procedure contained in the ancient texts.

The Vimanas do seem to work on some kind of anti-gravity technology, or at least some of them. They don't need run ways, they can lift of vertically, turn sideways, remain motionless in mid-air, zig-zag, speed etc.

Or, more reasonably, they move about unnaturally because they are a product of the imagination.

Maybe they did, and if a government got a hold of them, I doubt they tell the public about it.

So short of a conspiracy, there is no explanation for the pattern of selective archaeological evidence?

The difference here is while the foot solider has a sword or a spear, the elite have flying aircraft, missiles and weapons of mass destruction.

Yes, given to them by gods nonetheless. I imgaine hittite war chariots seems radical and futuristic and fantastic to dart throwers in their times also and maybe even were ascribed to have magical powers, just like the sword in the stone or the thunderbolts of zeus.

Originally posted by CaptainRon
First of all Vagabond, if you can track back our discussion from Ancient Nuclear war, you made a scandalizing comment regarding my country, and you were the starter of it!

I remember the quotes that offended you- you quoted them eariler and I defended them. I'm sorry to have "scandalizing" as you call it, but my statement was a perfectly reasonable description of what regional relgious prejudice in scholarly point of view is. I have acknowledged that the phenomenon is not issolated to India, so I don't see what's so trollish about what I have said.
Is it not a fact that India has suffered invasions at the hands of several powers over the last 2 millienia, that in the process everything of a certain temple except for the iron pillar was destroyed, and that this has made the iron pillar a culturally significant icon of their national identities endurance through foreign occupation? Is it not then perfectly rational for Indians to magnify this object and any attendant legends as a war of exhalting their own identity? Hindus have an interest in preserving claims as to the significance of the achievement of the rustless iron pillar.
I have neither made any points nor drawn any conclusions which I can not reasonably support. You on the other hand have taken it upon yourself to post a racial/cultural flame using only the slightest scrap of imperfect anecdotal evidence, the flaws of which are easily observed by even the most dense of minds.

VAgabond!!! In what manner did u take my theory??? I aint that dumb to say something like that!

Its interesting you see... you were being somewhat racist and I percieved that you might be the foreign counterpart of an American "red-neck", and therefore it was fairly logical to operate under the assumption that you were an idiot. If I've misjudged you I wish you would not issue flame-posts which lend themselves so readily to that kind of misjudgement.

What I meant was, if on todays date i was to ask you to build a pyramid, would you take the approach of using basic levers and fulcrums and spend your life time making one pyramid, or would you use heavy machinery and automated control systems? Obviously the latter. What I wanted to prove was exactly this, that u are taking a the-today-infrastructure view on developing nuclear weapons. The same way while taking the case of nuclear weapons, one could have been built with basic science and without the use of any ultra-huge infra structure. Indian Nuclear test on may 18 1974 was done in extreme crude state after the chinese had carried out their tests. That time India didnt have the extensive infrastructure either, but the aim was to match the chinese.

I think I see where you're coming from. It's a shame that you have to be wrong. The pyramid example only shows that great things can be accomplished very early in the period in which the civilization becomes capable; in other words that "overkill" technology is not necessary. This does not serve to absolutely shrink the timescale for development of nuclear weapons because the requirements of building nuclear weapons are far more complex than those for building a pyramid. The needed materials are far more rare and require special treatments to become useable in most cases, not to mention the incredible amount of mathematical and scientific knowhow required.
The Indian example is not a fair example because India wasn't the first. India would not have been able to conduct its tests in the 70s, probably not even in the 20th century, if America and Germany had not paved the way by discovering the nature of the atom and begin developing the science of nuclear physics. On top of that, there were Russian developments available by that time as well.
India bought a TV dinner and you're claiming they proved that just any average joe can be a great chef.

Vagabond, I think you should consider Plant manager job for yourself... people like you with ample free time and brains in knees will make good deal there. And anyway it seems you took my five-times income promise too much on ur heart... Relax buddy we will talk about that 5 years from now, or maybe I'll show up to u personally :p

What I have taken to heart is that you, who are clearly my intellectual inferior and who make use of "ur" as if it were a word have had the audacity to insult me personally. My name is Tom Connors and my permanent address is in Indio, California, USA. Look me up in 5 years if you like, but be warned that I'm not very jolly for a fat guy. There is a strong likelihood that I will be psychologically and physically abusive towards you if you start with me in person, and I have been known to rifle through the pockets of my victims, so your survivors would not have much of an inheritance.

why would anyone wish to clone 100 balls of flesh?

Existence of an interlinked Indo-european civilization

Okay, maybe this theory from my side will make some sense propagating the claim of ancient indian civilization.

Its known that Sanskrit was the mother of all European and North-Indian languages. Also we know the oldest city found till date is Dwarka which dates back to 7000 BC. The race existing in North India and Europe were basically the Aryans. Sanskrit was the language of aryans. Apart from that Sanskrit is one of the toughest languages with the most detailed grammar, the grammar being rightly followed till date since the oldest found manuscripts. The oldest SURVIVING grammar is the Panini's astyadhyayi, which described the sanskrit of the vedic era. Matter of factly, during the times of 1500 BC, Sanskrit didn't used to be the by birth language of people, but the language of the Educated. i.e. a Second language. This indicates that the community for which sanskrit was the primary language, was thinning out, and the masses were modyfing sanskrit to simpler local forms. This must have had happened in Europe much before, since India was the only region were Sanskrit was followed till much longer. The reason can be attested to the creation of the Hindu society which had its all religuous books written in sanskrit, making it mandatory for most to learn Sanskrit.

This also indicates that at one point of time, Europe, middle east and North India were speaking one language i.e. Sanskrit. This points towards the existence of a vast interlinked community over the regions mentioned above.
Clearly giving a clue towards the existence of a well ordered community which could maintain contacts over extremely long distances, and followed a highly scientific language which has been declared as the most suited language for scientific studies, specially computer science.

Forbes Magazine of July 1987 termed Sanskrit as the most well suited language for computer programming.
Panini's Astadhyayi

Some excerpts about sanskrit:

Panini's grammar has been evaluated from various points of view. After all these different evaluations, I think that the grammar merits asserting ... that it is one of the greatest monuments of human intelligence.

> Panini's Sanskrit grammar, produced in about 300 BC, is the shortest and
> fullest grammar in the world. According to Sir Monier-Williams,
> (Englishman, Sanskrit scholar 1819-1899):
>
> "The Panini grammar reflects the wondrous capacity of the human brain
> which till today no other country has been able to produce except India".

Panini didn't create the grammar, but re-compiled the work of ten ancient sanskrit scholars.


Now I dont know whether it had come up earlier in this discussion or not but Talpade, the indian scientist was known to have flown an unmanned mercury engine propelled aircraft in 1895!
He studied the Vaimanika Shastra, the propelling engine and its construction details.

Surprisingly according to the bi-monthly Ancient Skies published in USA, the aircraft engines being developed for future use by NASA by some strange coincidence also uses mercury bombardment units powered by Solar cells!

The Indian who flew an unmanned aircraft 8 years before wright brothers

Also not to forget Prof M A Lakshmithathachar who developed the glass like material that can render an aircraft stealth with an estimated Radar cross section reduction of 96%.

Maybe secretly the scientists at NASA do accept the existence of this civilization and working in the direction.

[qoute]The Vagabond says:There is a strong likelihood that I will be psychologically and physically abusive towards you if you start with me in person
Yes I can see who is intellectually inferior now...