Matthew 22:30: Like Angels in Heaven

a reply to: LifeisGrand
I don't think we're really in disagreement. "Transformed" is just a single word for "we shall all be changed".
In the distant past I wrote a thread on that chapter;
1 Corinthians; The waiting and the Resurrection

a reply to: Jonbet
Oh, there you are. Yes, I noticed that Mazzini had got banned.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: LifeisGrand
I don't think we're really in disagreement. "Transformed" is just a single word for "we shall all be changed".
In the distant past I wrote a thread on that chapter;
1 Corinthians; The waiting and the Resurrection

Thank you for the link, I went through and read it, and we are indeed on the same page for most things. I see a few things that we seem to differ on but that is okay.

For example, when Christ returns, those of us who are alive at that time, who have the heavenly hope will have to die, but we will be changed, in the twinkling of the eye. It appears you red that to mean that we will not die but be changed into immortal creatures that will not be able to die.

But his illistration of the seed that must die first before it can become fruitful explains our change. Those of us who have received the heavenly calling know we must die. Even Paul said, that those who receive the baptism of both water and spirit (are born again, or born from above) are baptized into death, or to be dead ones:

v29: Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such?

So we know we have to die. In fact in order to receive the heavenly body the physical body has to die. But that is really of little importance. The change is so fast, in a twinkling of an eye, that really at that time those who are swept away to heaven with him, will be basically instantaneously changed, they will die in their human bodies and instantaneously be resurrected in their spirit bodies. So I can see how you reasoned that those at that time will not die at all.

And this is done BEFORE death is brought to nothing. Because it is by means of those who are raised to spirit life, that everyone else will be raised back to perfection. In fact all of the faithful ones of old did not see the fulfillment of the promise, because, without us, those who are spirit anointed, and will rule in heaven, they cannot be perfected:

Heb 11:39-40:  And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise,  because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

There are two resurrections. The first is the heavenly resurrection. And by means of those who will rule in heaven with Jesus on thrones as kings, the earthly realm will be perfected, and the rest of humankind will be resurrected to human-life and after 1,000 reign, will be perfected.

Then all humankind will be welcomed back into God's family, and he will become their Father again.

So those of us whom are adopted as spirit-children of God, will be used to accomplish God's will concerning the creation. That is what is revealed here:

Romans 8:19-25: For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope  that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.


The revealing of the sons of God are the anointed who are called to rule in heaven. This revealing will be at Jesus' second coming when they will be resurrected to heavenly spirit life as immortal spirit creatures in the imagine of Jehovah God himself.

That is why God subjected creation (humankind) to futility. That is death. The "firstfruits" are those who are raised first, first Jesus, secondly those who are to reign with him. These are all children of God. And by means of these children of God all other humankind will be brought back to perfection.

Then at the end, after the 1,000 year rule, will Jesus hand the kingdom back over to his Father, as the last enemy will be brought to nothing, and thus God will become all things to all people, and those living on earth will also receive the adoption at that point of children of God.

a reply to: LifeisGrand
Paul's wording is "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (v51).
But "sleep" is one of his ways of describing the fact that someone has died (e.g. ch11 v30).
So what he is saying is "we shall not all die". Those of us who are still in life when he returns will be changed instantly ("in the twinkling of an eye") without needing to go through the death process.

a reply to: DISRAELI

True, sleep is referred to as death. But you see at that time, those of us alive who are swept away have no reason to sleep in death.

All the other spirit-begotten children of God have had to sleep in death. They were not raised to heavenly life right away. They have to wait for Jesus' coming in his kingdom glory, and his revelation in heaven.

So no in this sense it does not mean we will not die. It means we will not have to "sleep" or wait in death. The change, the death and resurrection of those alive will be instantaneous, there will be no longer a need to sleep, or wait for his return, for he will have already returned!

a reply to: Jonbet

The Apostle Peter would disagree with you.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

a reply to: LifeisGrand

O thou Jehovah's False Witness

But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. Luke 24:37-40

Not a spirit and certainly not a borrowed body.

Please,

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:27-28

a reply to: Josephus

Nothing I have said was false. In fact nothing I stated was of my own origin. Just scripture. And where I was not sure exactly I stated that it was my view or belief.

I have not treated you in such a fashion. And in fact if you consider what scripture says is false, that is your prerogative. I don't mind that, you have free will, and I respect that.

But to respond to your argument.

When did Thomas explain those things to Jesus? And how did Jesus appear to him?

If you are not sure I will share with you the passage to help you:

John 20:26: Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.”

You did quote 27 and 28 but left that one out.

So you read that the disciples were indoors, and they were in a place that was locked, that is because they were being hunted down and persecuted, so they had to meet secretly.

Now who appears in the middle of the locked room before them? None other than Jesus Christ. He could move through doors and walls without problem because as was shown by using 1 Corinthians he was a spirit creature.

And it should not surprise you that spirit creatures can materialize human form. There are many instances in the Bible of other angels, even Jesus himself, in his prehuman existence, materializing in human form.

If you thought your argument through with that scripture you would realize how goofy it is to try to use it to support the teaching that Jesus was raised as a flesh-and-blood person.

You don't really want us to believe he was moving through walls and materialized out of thin air in a body made of flesh and blood do you?

Angel's do not engage in sexual activity, fallen angels yes indeed they came down into the earth (made themselves manifest as being's of flesh) and took the daughter's of man as wives, the union were not holy offspring but corruption and evil, unlike the Lord himself they could not then become spirit again but there physical death and that of there corrupt offspring left them as demon's earthbound souls' with malevolent intent' the angels themselves were sealed away but since there children had been half human they were banished into the earth as foul spirit's.

This world is ash and dust while the spirit of God, the true reality, is the source of the soul or rather the life of the soul and that biblical referance from matthew is elegant, simple and too the point, you shall neither be given nor taken in marriage in heaven so no sex we are not animal's and sex is an animal trait necessary for self replicating molecules such as our body's and not our spirit's, we have new body's like the angel's (higher dimensional forms made of something else that is not of this dimension for our soul's to inhabit with a new nature - not like the fallen angels whom changed - came into the earth and died to the angelic realm.

I think in part the flaw of the angels whom did that was the same as the story of adam and eve, they thought the grass was greener on the other side but found it was not and there was no way back after they made that crossing as to become human they had to not only betray there task and leave there place of authority but to lose so very much of what they had once been.

There are difference's in different religions, christianity says' that man was made to work, the angel's are the servant's and representative's of God and of Heaven so they work, we shall be like the angel's mean's we have work to do not lounging about on cloud's or chasing after the opposite sex like dog's on heat.

In Islam they believe they go to a paradise garden with the heavenly equivelant of a viagra overdose, a place full of pre pubescant teenage girls with big boob's and also little boys for there version of pleasure with wine which they are forbidden to drink on earth but not there which actually makes it the odd one out (As well as sounding like a safari park for human gorilla's) as it panders to there physical animal nature not that of there soul.

Hinduism of course is both a pantheist religion with multiple god's but they can grow to the same level as there god's or merge with them through multiple incarnations as there soul's advance, bad soul's fall backwards and have to make up to get back home but good one's progress faster but still one over them all whom is a supreme, they also believe in transmigration of the soul, a bad person may come back to live as a slug and have to earn there place as a human again, never mind raise to there higher level's while a good soul will have been both male and female before ascending to a far higher level of being and then from there to yet another as nothing but the ultimate being the brahma is eternal and even he/she sleeps for eternity's of years before destroying and then recreating the universe meaning the universe is essentially a dream of the creator.

Buddhism is based on hinduism but believes all is illusion there are no god's just being's that are part of the illusion and the soul has to eventually return to a state of nirvana, I can not get whether that is life or oblivion and don't think they really care as both concepts are merely seen as different states of being.

Typically primitive religion's believe in a physical after life with sex, you can take your possessions etc like the egyptians, the buddhist call this illusion which is often different from person to person bardo which is not the after life but a kind of waiting room for the soul were it has to relive it's karma good or bad before either reincarnation or ascension to a higher level.

In christianity there will be a new heaven and a new earth, these are higher level's than the old one's which are both mortal now (Temporary or illusory) and doomed to pass away, many whom have passed over and then come back in near death and death experiences have seen both physical and spiritual realm's, some just like here and others' less physical, those that saw the physical reality's were usually told it was not there time so in essence it was a between the world's kind of place just like the bardo, a familiar place to minimise the shock of the transition to another dimension of being while the physical id is still present and has not accepted it's own death.

On the cross christ said to the good thief that he would be with him drinking wine in paradise that same day, with him - christ is the vine of life, the spirit gains it's nourishment from God whom is it's source while evil is only corruption, christ is the fountain of living water what wells up within they whom drink of it and when they they shall no more thirst.

a reply to: LifeisGrand

Sorry for being uncivil

Also sorry for being goofy. Perhaps this is less goofy;

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 2:19-22

No bodily resurrection? Gee whiz next your gonna tell me Jesus was actually Michael the Archangel or something.

originally posted by: Jonbet
a reply to: jhill76

The Sons of God mated with the sons of Adam and created the Nephilim. But the Sons of God where not, at that time, considered angels. Judaism was not monotheistic at that point and the Sons of God or Elohim were the guardians or watchers, closer to demi gods than angels. Cherubim and Seraphim(shining serpents) are the most known classes of angels. Archangels are the closest to God and act in accordance with his will.

Angelology is fascinating.

The Seraphim have to be related to the Egyptian serpent God Serapis.

You mean the daughters of man....?

a reply to: spirit_horse

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Hopefully I have time to fix that.

Funny thing is that just before Sodom and Gomorrah the men of Sodom sought to rape angels that they thought were men.

a reply to: Josephus


I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. If I wanted to I could scripturally prove that Paul is a fraud. Using just Matthew, Revelation and Paul's own words.

But I have done it so many times t to so many people it's not even fun anymore.

a reply to: LABTECH767

If the angels of the Old Testament had sex then so can today's angels.

The Sons of God were not angels. You have to understand that Judaism has little angelology until post Babylonian captivity.

The Sons of God were Sons of Elohim. Elohim means mighty ones. Sons of the Mighty Ones is a more accurate translation. This was a time when monotheism had not yet been conceived.

To call them angels is incorrect. They were Watchers or Igrigori. Jews do not use the term fallen angels. That is the number one reason that the Book of Enoch is not canon.

Igrigori were entrusted with the guardianship of mankind, and were responsible for the Nephilim and deluge.

Angel means messenger, and they don't have free will to go against God.

a reply to: Josephus

Lazarus was raised but only for a time, his soul is with our lord in incorruptible state now.

Christ was god manifest as man, seperate from the father the word of god, when he rose he stayed on earth for the customary 40 days which is the purification period then he ascended with cloud's but even before this many whom witnessed the living risen christ saw him as different until he opened there eye's.

He can change the corruptible into the incorruptible but other than Enoch, Elijah and of course the Virgin Miriam this is rare, Moses for example was told by god that he had made him into a god and yet he would die, he did die in sight of the promised land but of course his soul ascended which is how both Elijah and Moses met christ on the mount.

There is the story of how Satan argued with Michael over the body of Moses but Michael would not allow him to have the body and then Jesus met Moses with Elijah on the mount at the transfiguration.

And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed

a reply to: LABTECH767

That was actually Samael that argued over the body of Moses. Samael is not Satan.

Samael is a name and the Angel of Death.

Originally Satan was a title, not a name. It means the Adversary in Hebrew and is Ha Satan

But the word satan without the Ha is also used in the Hebrew at times when it just means AN adversary.

Satan became a name with Christianity.

a reply to: LifeisGrand

There are angels who materialized human bodies and had sex with humans, and were thrown out of the celestial family they were in with God. And to this day they maintain their perverted sexual desires toward humankind. They have been reserved in bonds under dense darkness for the day of judgement upon them.

So they had physical bodies therefore they had 1/2 human 1/2 angelic hybrids; the Logic that escapes you is that their descendants are still around...how are they bound? You cant have it both ways
Logic Fail!

a reply to: reldra

Since life in Heaven is both spiritual and eternal, there really isn't any need for earthly bodies and earthly desires. So there wouldn't be a need to gendering and all that goes with it.

So far as we know, we may not eat in the way we think of now either and for the same reasons.

originally posted by: Josephus
a reply to: LifeisGrand

Sorry for being uncivil

Also sorry for being goofy. Perhaps this is less goofy;

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 2:19-22

No bodily resurrection? Gee whiz next your gonna tell me Jesus was actually Michael the Archangel or something.

I realize that you either did not read and reason on the explanations given you, or have totally ignored the scriptures. For you have not answered them.

I also realize that a true Christian must always be ready to answer why they have the faith they do, with humility and deep respect. The way you conduct yourself shows you lack "deep respect" for your fellow man. Something I will try to avoid...

"Always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect." - 1 Peter 3:15.

But since you want to make fun of and light of Scripture, and especially other people's beliefs I should probably not respond further. But I will.

Please answer me these following questions, with Scripture, for God let's us know in Scripture these answers:

Is God a spirit or is he flesh?

Where does God reside?

Are the angels in heaven like God or are they like men?

Where is heaven?


Also answer me this:

If a human went into outer space without protection what would happen to his body?
Does a human have to eat and sleep? Does God have to eat and sleep?
Does a human have to defecate? Does God have to defecate?
Does Jesus have to eat and sleep and use the bathroom? Would you not agree he has to do all these things if he had a body of flesh and blood correct?

Now if a mortal body of flesh and blood cannot exist in outer space, how can it go to the heavens where God the invisible Spirit resides?

And if no human body could exist in God's presence because of his majestic glory (similar to trying to put a human body next to the sun, except on a scale far grander) how could a physical human body exist in the spiritual heavens?

And please take the time, as Scripture says, and answer these questions of your faith, along with deep respect, and show us your understanding of the previous scriptures you also ignored that directly tell us that flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens where the invisible Spirit God resides.

Here are a few more questions for you to ponder:

When Paul saw Jesus on his way to Damascus Jesus appeared to him as a blinding light. Why didn't he appear as a human flesh and blood if he was a human of flesh and blood?

Why does Scripture tell us that Jesus' body is so bright that no human can look upon his form:

(1 Timothy 6:15, 16) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light. . .

How does a body of flesh and blood enter into the spirit realm where no mortal body can enter. And how is it that Jesus dwells in unapproachable light, and how is it that NO human is able to look upon his appearance as he is in his spiritual form?

(1 Timothy 6:16) . . .whom no man has seen or can see. . . .

If Jesus was flesh and blood, why does Scripture tell us that no man has seen him (in his spirit form) or can see him.

We do know that angels are invisible and we can't see them. But you claim that Jesus is NOT like God who is an invisible Spirit....

(....Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, the only God. - 1 Timothy 1:17)

And he is NOT like the angels who are also invisible spirits like their Father Jehovah. Why do you believe Jesus is not like God who is an invisible spirit. And why do you believe he is not like the angels who are invisible spirits? Especially when Scripture tells us that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit in the divine image of God himself.

Why have you ignored every single scripture that says Jesus is a spirit, and will you not reason on one single question asked you here? Why will you ignore it all and continue with your unbecoming conduct?

If you decide to ignore scripture, and then twist and contort certain ones to try and make them fit your unreasoning and unscriptural beliefs, do you think you are acceptable to God?

Do you think my opinion matters or God's? If you believe in God, then why not believe what Scripture states?


Thank you for taking the time to answer all of these questions for me as a true Christian would, defending your faith, with deep respect:

"But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect." - 1 Peter 3:15.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It has been my experience, diIsraeli, that those who imagine heaven in earthly terms and physical things have never been called to heavenly life. For Heavenly life is for spiritual beings. And those who are called have their hope changed inside them and they think of the spiritual and not the physical.

People like Josephus, who is arguing about Jesus being physical (while we know that is ridiculous) do so because they have no idea or inkling of what heaven or spirit life is like.

That belongs to those who have been called and chosen. When I meet a real spirit-begotten child of God, they are able to comprehend spiritual things in a spiritual manner and not a fleshly physical one.

Those whose comprehension does not go behind the fleshly were never called to begin with. And have no idea of what heavenly life will be. Perhaps they may get a partial understanding by paying attention to Scripture, and from the called and chosen whom Jehovah has granted to understand.