I am so sick of religious people

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: eluryh22

I think he is referring to the judgements. Like if your gay you are going to hell. You can only get to heaven through Jesus, that kind of stuff.

Yeah, that eternal damnation BS reeks of spiritual arrogance. And what a fantastic way to rationalize racism, sexism, and the "people like you" meme, to marginalize people into being "less than human" like the Mormons who have only recently recognized the "humaness" of black people.

www.nytimes.com...

originally posted by: eluryh22

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: DumpMaster


I see most Western religions focusing on negativity and guilt. Not really a healthy choice, eh?

I find that sentiment so odd. I'm not saying you are wrong because I can't speak for what goes on anywhere beyond my parish and/or diocese. I just have never thought of religion in that way. From my experience, beyond the Bible and rituals/rites, if I had to sort of "sum up" what is spoken about at church it is essentially:

- Do good for the sake of doing good
- Be forgiving
- Even in your darkest hour, there is always hope and/or you are never alone

Things like that. I suppose one could maybe categorize confession in the negative/guilt column, but the act of confession is meant to lead to a positive. Sort of acknowledging something about yourself (or an action) and choosing to address it. (No, one doesn't need religion to self-improve, it's just one aspect of religion though).

Anyway, again, I'm not telling you that you're wrong. I just found your post interesting.

This has been my experience as well, and I was raised Roman Catholic. I'm not strictly Catholic/Christian, as I've always taken knowledge from a variety of religions/systems. At my core, if I had to categorize myself today, I'd place myself as more of a Gnostic Christian, but the fact remains, my experience with the Catholic church has never been one of negativity/guilt, fire & brimstone, etc. It has always been focused on positivity, inclusion, loving everyone, grace/forgiveness, etc. I think many people form their opinions and beliefs about religions based on pop culture, or what they've heard others say, as opposed to coming from any place of knowledge or experience.

a reply to: DumpMaster

Why do you say "religious people" when the vast majority of ultra violence we see on an almost daily basis comes from Muslims?

a reply to: WeRpeons

Right. And they go to church on Sunday and evangelize every chance they get. Thats cultural jewelry not religion. They aren't hunting down Atheists and other religions.

Also many criminals are Atheists. Many mass murderers are Atheists. It doesn't mean atheism is the cause. Unless your talking some of the dictators that purposely targeted religious people.

a reply to: DumpMaster

I have an honest question for you, friend. I want to understand the way you view the world and it'll be a first step helping me to do so.

You obviously have a heart that is empathetic towards what is happening to others around the world...that said,

Do you believe in Evil?
That something, an act perpetrated by man, can be objectively evil?

a reply to: dogstar23

Or the actual reality of history and current events. Plenty to go off.

I personally had a Catholic family. My mom was not religious but the rest were. The actual church they went to in Chicopee has a priest molest and kill a young girl (father Levine). The church hid it for a long time. It's that kind of stuff.

I agree though it's not all bad. Catholics also have made drs and scientists out of people who would have never been able to be educated.

The thing is we live in a society together. A good dialogue between atheism and religion is better than most of the childish arguements that reoccur over and over.

When I went to school I loved debating Christian apologists. They were very good philosophers for the most part. I learned how to debate better. I even give diesm and pantheism a lot of thought because of a few good arguements I have been in while on a debate team.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: DumpMaster

We all have our preferred delusions. Usually they are harmless, until they make us sick; emotionally and physically.

I see most Western religions focusing on negativity and guilt. Not really a healthy choice, eh?

You know what that's true.

I take back part of what I said as well. I am not sick of religious people I am sick of what they do.
Example being when horrible things happen they just say pray. Yesterday it was #prayforcity I forget the city name. Today it's #prayfortheworld. How about actually doing something instead of nothing - which is what praying is.

All religious people are not the same, I take that back as well. I was really mad when I wrote this because of what I was watching on the news. If you asked me, there are three types of religious people. Many who just say they are a certain religion but really aren't and are just too afraid to say it, those in the middle, and those who think it's 100% real (usually terrorists, kkk, or westboro church types).

All religious people are to blame somewhat though in that you all spread the lies that your holy books are true. When someone picks up and reads these things and the disgusting horrible brutal things in it, they think hey this is what I need to do because this is real and it says to do this. Then they go out and do terrorism.

FACT: Like I stated above, Christianity has murdered and butchered many tens of thousands of our First Nations peoples (AKA Indian, native, Aboriginal) and this only ended in 1996. It was 150 years of genocide, in Canada. That is a fact. Every week I hear at least one story from a survivor on CBC talking about the horrors done to them and their families. Why did religious people allow this to happen? This is disgusting. We now have a 25% First Nations prison population, and they are suffering from over a century of brutal indoctrination and brainwashing at the hands of Christian priests and nuns. How can anyone not be furious.

The only thing that matters are truth and facts, evidence and proof. Religion has no evidence or proof. It is bad for humanity overall. Religion says you have to have faith. Faith is the belief in something without any proof or evidence to back it up. If religion had any proof or evidence they wouldn't ask you to have faith, they would say take a look at the evidence, so all this nonsense needs to end. It's destructive and terrible for humanity.

Some of what you call harmless actions also harm all of humanity, like how so many religious people think that the world is fine and deny climate change thinking their god will take care of everything and this planet was a gift to them to do what they want to. This affects everyone. This harmless belief will lead to the death of millions as droughts and famines due to climate change caused by pollution and sea waters rise leaving countries at sea level uninhabitable. It seems like a harmless belief that the worlds is your gift, but multiple that by everyone, throw in some bad policy and it leads to the death of millions around the world.

Well now,

Something to throw some fun into. Pay attention cause I'll only say this once.

-Roughly 95% of the worlds population believes in some form of higher power or deity called god. However they want to worship him.

-The very definition of religion or religious is to do something on a repetitive basis that you absolutely put faith into, this could even mean going number 2 at the bus station during the noon homeless man rush to share a bottle. Its doesn't necessarily need to be pigeon holed to god worship although that's the biggest one so when someone says religion that's what people immediately think of.

-People should be able to do whatever they please as long as it does not infringe on another space or well being. This is a right you are born with, who cares what a piece of paper says in some rat trap museum. Whether you believe in God or not, you were born with this right of freedom bestowed upon you by something we have yet to discover.

-People can believe in god but not be religious about it. Questions? Go up two and reread that one for clarity. Just because someone is a inmate in prison or part of a gang doesn't mean they don't believe in a higher authority. I'm catholic I'm just not very good at it. See what I mean?

Just because you don't like something does not mean it shouldn't exist. What if you're wrong? You die and here's God standing outside a bowling alley in heaven passing out free samples of Jesus Weed to all the first timers. Think he'll share? Or put you on the constantly delayed short bus to hell sitting in the helmet only section cause the rides full on the way down?

You shouldn't be so narrow. Keep your options open, just in case. And Jesus died so those very same gang members would at least have a shot at heaven eventually. Knowing gangs, you usually don't live long enough in one to contemplate Gods will anyway. So no, Cross tattoos on the chest are not a get in free card. They just look cool to all the church bound Latina with hot booties who want to rebel due to daddy issues.

Hope that helps clear things up

originally posted by: TheOnlyAnswer
a reply to: DumpMaster

I have an honest question for you, friend. I want to understand the way you view the world and it'll be a first step helping me to do so.

You obviously have a heart that is empathetic towards what is happening to others around the world...that said,

Do you believe in Evil?
That something, an act perpetrated by man, can be objectively evil?

Evil is a label for things done that harm others.

What are my values?
We are all equal.
We are all the same race (not white or black etc, those are skin tones, we are Human). DNA shows we all have 99.9% similarity also, so take that.
All life is sacred (even insects in my house occasionally show up and I trap them and bring them outside safely without harming them).
Reality Rules and so does the Truth.
I treat everyone with respect and am the nicest guy you'll ever meet.
I have even driven strangers to church and mosque after they missed their bus even though I am against religion.
Also I have and would put myself in harms way to help anyone in need.

You?

a reply to: DumpMaster

Thats not a great arguement though. Nothing in the new testament said go slaughter the natives. American even in its secular state under a president who literally rewrote the bible to take out the supernatural still slaughtered tens of thousands of natives.

Mao slaughtered people FOR being religious.

Religious people can be annoying and their just pray it away attitude without action is hipocritical. However when SC had our floods they stepped up big time helping people. They had busses of food, workers, and shelters for people effected. It was nice to see actually. I am an agnostic atheist for the most part but I can still admit it's not all bad. Though I generally have issues with overly religious behaviour. Especially the kind that wants to push it in everybody.

Some religious people are very gullable, full of hate, and lazy. That doesn't mean all or most.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: DumpMaster

Thats not a great arguement though. Nothing in the new testament said go slaughter the natives. American even in its secular state under a president who literally rewrote the bible to take out the supernatural still slaughtered tens of thousands of natives.

Mao slaughtered people FOR being religious.

Religious people can be annoying and their just pray it away attitude without action is hipocritical. However when SC had our floods they stepped up big time helping people. They had busses of food, workers, and shelters for people effected. It was nice to see actually. I am an agnostic atheist for the most part but I can still admit it's not all bad. Though I generally have issues with overly religious behaviour. Especially the kind that wants to push it in everybody.

Some religious people are very gullable, full of hate, and lazy. That doesn't mean all or most.

Then why did the Pope officially apologize for slaughtering the natives?

a reply to: DumpMaster

I agree with everything you said and don't object to any of it.

So, as to my question, is that a yes?

You do believe in objective evil? Or is 'evil' relative?

a reply to: DumpMaster

Because the church as a political entitiy did the destruction. There aren't new testament vs about it or he wouldn't apologize would he?

a reply to: BooCrackers

Your 95% staistic is wrong. You're saying 95% of the people worship only 1 deity, many worship many deities.

People should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others, correct and great. Problem is read what I wrote in my post above yours where harmless beliefs are killing innocent people elsewhere.

What if I'm wrong? Well evidence and proof says I am not. Religions have no proof or evidence otherwise they would stop asking people to have faith. If there was proof or evidence of any religion being real I would follow the proof and evidence because only the truth matters.

Jesus was a character made up of many previous characters through history. Study some history and you will find many "jesus's" throughout time, but way before your jesus.

Hell is also a fictional place used in indoctrinating children and people into the religious scam. There is no evidence or proof of any such thing. Most religions do not have a hell.

Hope that clears things up.

originally posted by: TheOnlyAnswer
a reply to: DumpMaster

I agree with everything you said and don't object to any of it.

So, as to my question, is that a yes?

You do believe in objective evil? Or is 'evil' relative?

Evil is a label we give to horrible acts that people do or given to people who have done horrible things to other people.

Not sure if that helps or not. That's what I think it means

a reply to: TheOnlyAnswerI

If men were born free, they would, so long as they remained free, form no conception of good and evil.
Spinoza

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: TheOnlyAnswerI

If men were born free, they would, so long as they remained free, form no conception of good and evil.
Spinoza

Sounds logical to me

originally posted by: TheOnlyAnswer
a reply to: DumpMaster

I agree with everything you said and don't object to any of it.

So, as to my question, is that a yes?

You do believe in objective evil? Or is 'evil' relative?

I think a little more clarification is in order....

Do you mean a solid Devil as in "the devil made me do it" evil personified, tangible and a fantastic way to not take personal responsibility?

originally posted by: TheBulk
a reply to: DumpMaster

Why do you say "religious people" when the vast majority of ultra violence we see on an almost daily basis comes from Muslims?

I said religious people and not Muslims because in Canada, Christianty has destroyed and ended the lives of multiple tens of thousands of First nations peoples. It has the highest kill count in my homeland.

a reply to: DumpMaster

I appreciate you answering.

Let's take for example the Nazi regime and it's extermination of millions of Jews, Russians, Poles, Gypsys, and Homosexuals.
From the Reich's point of view it was a righteous act, cleansing the continent of the undesirables so that they can build a better society out of the ashes.

Were they wrong? Were their actions decidedly not righteous? Not only unrighteous but evil?
And if they were evil, how do you objectively make that claim?

P.S. I liked your use of the word sacred in your first response to me.