My problem with Sanders

Hey all!

So I'd like to let you k ow that in my opinion this election cycle and the division in this country is exactly what we need.

Now that we're starting to wake up to the fact that we don't all need to work 80 hours a week in order to sustain a functioning society(which is the point the point is not to get rich) now we're starting to wake up to our cultural issues.

Anyway I digress....

So my problem with Bernie Sanders and his free education and single payer system and many of the proposed ideas coming from the democratic socialist movement is that their main focus is not on restoring purchasing power back to the individual but their focus is on providing "free" services.

If I didn't have to spend 70%+ of my income just on housing alone(include utilities and travel because hey are a necessity) than I could have more free time to spend on developing skills and pursuing more advantageous opportunities elsewhere.

Now let me remind you I'm not speaking specifically to my own personal experience I make over 2500 a month so I'm doing ok although I'd like to be doing better.

When I use the word me or we in referring to the macrocosm and not my own personal experience so please refrain from addressing me individually thanks.

a reply to: onequestion

You don't get anything "FREE" under the plans Sanders suggests.

It's paid for with taxes, and for nearly every ATS member, their taxes wouldn't be any higher than they are now.

It's about rearranging how the money is spent, and providing services paid for by our taxes. We would see more tangible results from the money we pay in taxes than we currently do.

It's like getting more channels with your cable company without having to pay more, because the cable company got a better deal with the networks. Your cable company was able to secure the ability to bring new networks at a better price, and make those channels available to you for what you are already paying.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: onequestion

You don't get anything "FREE" under the plans Sanders suggests.

It's paid for with taxes, and for nearly every ATS member, their taxes wouldn't be any higher than they are now.

It's about rearranging how the money is spent.

Look what they did with Obamacare how can we trust them to spend our money properly when it comes to food, health, housing, and education?

wouldnt it be better if we could choose our own?

I'm very back and forth on this issue because I also realize he direction our society is moving in.

a reply to: onequestion

That might work fine in a small community, but on a large scale? Not so much.

Obamacare isn't the same thing as a single-payer system using taxpayer funding to provide coverage for people, or tuition to worthy students. Obamacare forces Americans to purchase insurance out of their own pockets ON TOP of the tax money they already pay.

Americans have never really pushed for the government to spend the money we give them smarter. We've just been pushing them to not spend as much and cut taxes.

There's a big difference between shouting "Don't spend so much!" for decades and "Hey, spend that money better on stuff that benefits the people!"

a reply to: MystikMushroom

So you want to empower the government to take our money and make choices for us rather than empower the individual to make the choice for themselves?

According to Democratic Socialism dogma, their main effort is is to replace private ownership in our capitalistic system with social ownership. The idea of "restoring purchasing power back to the individual" isn't a focal point, from what I've read.

That is, whereas social democrats only seek to "humanize" capitalism through state intervention, democratic socialists see capitalism as inherently incompatible with the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and believe that the issues inherent to capitalism can only be solved by superseding private ownership with some form of social ownership. Ultimately democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only cause more problems to emerge elsewhere in the economy, that capitalism can never be sufficiently "humanized", and that it must therefore ultimately be replaced with socialism.

en.wikipedia.org...

It also seems that by offering a lot of "free" things, people would get sucked into a system of perpetual dependence on big government, an abhorrent thought to those tasked to finance the "free" stuff.

a reply to: Boscowashisnamo

i dont think their leaving because of taxes they don't pay those I think their leaving due to operational cost...

Make the money in be margins.

a reply to: Boscowashisnamo

Some things should be social ownership instead of capitalist enterprises. Bernie has a long history of rallying against privatized prison systems that are linked to police retirement plans and such. Such a system has encouraged keeping prisons filled by those who have the capability of filling them.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: onequestion

That might work fine in a small community, but on a large scale? Not so much.

Obamacare isn't the same thing as a single-payer system using taxpayer funding to provide coverage for people, or tuition to worthy students. Obamacare forces Americans to purchase insurance out of their own pockets ON TOP of the tax money they already pay.

Americans have never really pushed for the government to spend the money we give them smarter. We've just been pushing them to not spend as much and cut taxes.

There's a big difference between shouting "Don't spend so much!" for decades and "Hey, spend that money better on stuff that benefits the people!"

The problem with government is that by its nature it cannot spend money smartly. Government does not risk going broke when they make bad decisions. They can just raise taxes more. The smartest person to spend your money is you.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: onequestion

You don't get anything "FREE" under the plans Sanders suggests.

It's paid for with taxes, and for nearly every ATS member, their taxes wouldn't be any higher than they are now.

It's about rearranging how the money is spent, and providing services paid for by our taxes. We would see more tangible results from the money we pay in taxes than we currently do.

It's like getting more channels with your cable company without having to pay more, because the cable company got a better deal with the networks. Your cable company was able to secure the ability to bring new networks at a better price, and make those channels available to you for what you are already paying.

I dont buy that Bro. I make a bit over 6K a month, and an article I read a few weeks ago on Politico, said that his plan had changed, because there was not enough tax revenue available from the wealthy, and that the middle class woul;d have to pay as well as the poor paying on what they received too. From the article, I figure my taxes will go up $200.00 a month, and I will likely receive nothing in return. Ive already been stung by Obamacare. My insurance is now more costly and I have to pay plenty for doctor visits and procedures up front now, when before it was always a $20 copay. It sucks! Get the US government involved in anything and they cause a big mess everywhere. I like Bernie, I just dont like his plan

a reply to: Edumakated

I totally agree.

If I am empowered I can make my own choices.

This actually creates opportunities for a more competetive marketplace.

If I don't have an option for a school that I like than I can began looking at that as an opportunity to start my own but if the government controls everything than that opportunity is gone.

a reply to: onequestion

Hey, One, you know I like you and I really appreciate your perspective. We agree sometimes and sometimes we don't, but I like that you discuss ideas instead of partisan politics.

Anyway, my problem with anything that is 'free' is that it isn't free. It just means that people like me have to pay for it and that doesn't sound like an idea I want to embrace. Now, as you and I have discussed before I would be 100% on board with taking half or more of our military budget and spending it on your free stuff since that is all wasted money anyway (or worse, used to kill people).

Anyway, I can't say I fully understand your situation where you think everything should be free. People didn't think like that in the 80's or even the 90's. It seems to be your generation more than anyone else, but you should know that people like me played by the rules and worked hard for what we have and it isn't fair for someone like Sanders to just demand it from us.

Keep it real, brother.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: MystikMushroom

So you want to empower the government to take our money and make choices for us rather than empower the individual to make the choice for themselves?

They already do that. The Government is going to take our Tax money and it's our elected officials that decide where it's spend. Of Course you know this, I'm merely replying to your post.

Meaning that Trump, Might put more of our tax money on Weapons, and military spending in the middle east and building large expensive walls. Sanders will put more on Healthcare and education. Cruz on outdated legislation like preserving the Sanctity of Marriage. Hillary, Will spend some on Middle east warfare, ( not security on embassies of course) but basically keep things where they've been the last few years.

I'd go with Sander son this. I like where he's going to put my money, instead of Hillary, Cruz and Trump. Also we all know that Obama CAre was a good idea on paper, all of us want healthcare reform, but we all know there are some issues. Hillary says keep it but change it. I like the Sanders says, scrap it and come up with a better plan. Trump and Cruz don't really care about healthcare?

a reply to: Metallicus

I'm actually beginning to lean more towards a free market idea set.

I go back and forth a lot because I understand both sides.

I would actually benefit from many of the proposed free things being offered but I want my own purchasing power. I'm far to intelligent to allow the government to dictate to me how my money is spent.

I appreciate your input as always and thank you for the compliment.

Diversity is good so we shouldn't always agree.

a reply to: amazing

If I have money why do I need Obamacare?

Seems to me that the problem is no one has any money anymore.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Metallicus


I go back and forth a lot because I understand both sides.

Hmm... If you really understood both sides, wouldn't you know which one to stick with?

originally posted by: VP740

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Metallicus


I go back and forth a lot because I understand both sides.

Hmm... If you really understood both sides, wouldn't you know which one to stick with?

No it's not that simple these are vastly complicated issues with both sides of the debate.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: amazing

If I have money why do I need Obamacare?

Seems to me that the problem is no one has any money anymore.

That's true. Can anyone afford health care without insurance? One good thing about Obama Care. My wife is thinking about getting a new job, but she just had cancer. Now it's against the law to discriminate against her because of her pre existing condition. Therefor she's able to get the new job. We'd be literally homeless without health insurance. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars between that and some broken arm surgery for another family member.

So to take your reply a step further. I'd have to make about $300,000 a year to not have to worry about Health insurance and Obama Care. I don't really know anyone who makes that kind of money. So it's really about health care costs and how to manage them.

a reply to: amazing

No because what your saying is it's to expensive to purchase on your own.

If it's to expensive than they have to cut cost to make it affordable, you just point out exactly why the government SHOULDNT be involved.

Oh I misunderstood you my bad, I totally agree.

a reply to: onequestion

He has a bigger vision than just the current cycle. "Free services"? Well, you have your mindset already, but anyway. Free education will pay for itself in the long run. Even Wall Street says that manufacturing jobs are never coming back to the US. The more high skills for electronic manufacturing will be in the US. It just seems to escape people that hope and producing keeps you off the social programs and out of prison. Of course, the prison industry and its supporters would not like that idea.

I won't even get into free medical "services" I was in nursing field for 15yrs and don't have the mindset that it is a "service". Like a fast food attendant.