Obama visit Castro in La Havana: A Presidential Pardon to a convicted Terrorist?

originally posted by: Khaleesi

originally posted by: jrod
Dont write Fidel and Raul.Castro off as terrorist just because of US propaganda and misinformation.

Watch this documentary with Fidel, and you may have a much different opinion about him.

I had a teacher in High School that was from Cuba. The subject of Fidel and Che came up one day. The look on his face was indescribable. He sat for a few minuteds and listened and then he stopped the discussion and told us his personal experience. He actually knew Fidel Castro. He went to school with him. I actually looked him up and verified his story years later. Fidel hid his true intentions and when he had control, he revealed his true nature. My teacher and his family fled Cuba and were almost stopped. They managed to escape. I will not watch a video that rewrites history and makes a hero out of him. I will believe someone that witnessed it first hand.

I hear ya.
My HS girlfriend and her family came to the US in 65' on the freedom flights from cuba.

Her grandparents were landowners and castro took everything from them.

They were well off and educated like most that fled.

Batista was corrupt but a far cry from castro.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

Yes, that was what made so difficult for Castro and his Cuban associates, like Rafael del Pino, to be successful in Bogota in 1948, since Colombia had a so solid democratic tradition that of course didn't exist in Cuba.

It was not really easy to carry out a Marxist revolution in a nation that didn't have any dictatorships and also in which there was a clear tradition of rule of law, division of powers, human rights and alternation of parties in power. Everybody knew that Jorge E. Gaitan was going to be the next President of Colombia after Mariano Ospina-Perez.

Only foreign forces interested in to boycott the Panamerican Conference had something to gain in such a terrible terrorist attack occurred in April of 1948, the civil war that triggered didn't brought any positive political outcome to no party in Colombia.

Absolutely no body else had anything good to get from El Bogotazo, only the Cuban Orthodox Party, sponsored by the Soviet Block, and the Justicialist movement of Juan Domingo Peron that was isolated of the continent due to a political embargo, perhaps also The Spanish Francoism that was giving support to Peron and later gave also support to Castro when he won the revolution of 1959, could be also favored by the incident.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: The angel of light

Why this visit was not preceded by multiple visits before by the State Secretary or any other functionaries of that department, why the President must do this?

That, sir, is an excellent question. Maybe he was counting JayZ and Beyonce as his preceding functionaries.

Why did the Pope go there a few weeks ago just before heading into Mexico? Something is up.

You do know that Cuba is visited by 10's of thousands of people from all around the world except America - yes? Personally I think the thawing of the relations is a little sad as Cuba has been one of the very few beautiful places in that part of the world where you can go on holiday and not have to put up with the obligatory group of loud mouthed Americans in the pool every day acting like they own the place.

a reply to: uncommitted

I am perfectly aware of that, this is not a critic against improvement of relationship, but to give unconditional concessions to a regime that has and is still violating human rights and is openly antidemocratic is highy risky, it may discredit the Presidential institution.

The Pope went to Cuba as a religious leader of a creed that is majoritarian in the island, to an interview with another religious leader by the way.

Europeans deal with Castro since he sold to them all the State he took from Cubans and Americans.

FDR and WW have a lot of political space to Stalin and the consequence was a cold war of 40 years! He committed genocide of more than 20 millions of persons systematically before he got nuclear capability, and America didn't react on time to stop him.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: uncommitted

I am perfectly aware of that, this is not a critic against improvement of relationship, but to give unconditional concessions to a regime that has and is still violating human rights and is openly antidemocratic is highy risky, it may discredit the Presidential institution.

The Pope went to Cuba as a religious leader of a creed that is majoritarian in the island, to an interview with another religious leader by the way.

Europeans deal with Castro since he sold to them all the State he took from Cubans and Americans.

FDR and WW have a lot of political space to Stalin and the consequence was a cold war of 40 years! He committed genocide of more than 20 millions of persons systematically before he got nuclear capability, and America didn't react on time to stop him.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

Correction, many working Europeans travel to Cuba because it's an incredibly beautiful country with incredibly wonderful people. I'm not unaware of the fact Castro isn't the overall good guy but the American President has absolutely no reason to 'pardon' him for anything - did you hold Nixon to the same account for China? If not, why not? What about Reagan and Russia?

a reply to: uncommitted

I clearly mentioned the so negative consequences of Nixon's recognition of Red China in the opening post:

1) That country is a non democratic economic power that has taken gradually control of our public finances and is working hard to also do so with the private ones and our social security system.

2) Red China has sucked the major part of the American industrial capital, taken away millions of jobs to overseas, promoting tax evasion in the US.

3) Mao offered Nixon to help him to find a honorable peace in South Vietnam, in exchange for their admission in the UN, and not the humiliating outcome it actuality had.

4) China has eroded with their currency manipulation strategies the position in our Market of the trully American products, as well as discredited the quality of many American brands with the horrendus quality of their products.

5) China right now is building an interoceanic canal in an enemy and expansionist country , Nicaragua, to try collapse the Panama one.

6) Russia became a Market economy, where Communist party lost control of the Political power, the same happened in the other 14 exSoviet republics, and in all Ex-Warsaw pact nations, many of which are today in Nato or EU. Russia contracted its size , instead Red China annexed Tibet, Hong Kong, Manchuria, half of Mongolia and Macau.

7) Supposedly Mao made Richard Nixon to believe that he was opening a Giant new Market to US companies, what Market if they were still under Stalinism in mid 1970s?. The reality was in the other way around.

8) Reagan was alarmed of how unbalanced was the external trade with China, he wanted to turn it off, but people that were getting incredible fortunes with it, like G.H. Bush and his multimillionaire friends convinced him that to have an Evils pact with communist leaders wanting to also become rich at expense of millions of slaved workers was a good deal.

Reagan stated clear conditions to The USSR, Nixon instead signed unconditionally with Mao. Perhaps he was so much busy negotiating the terms of his Pardon.

History is to learn lessons to avoid to repeat same mistakes again and again.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Can you support your claim that Castroeas convicted at trial in Columbia in relation to Bogotazo? Stating that it is true does t make it so and after doing some searching I can find nothing that supports your contention that this assertion of yours has any truth to it. An appropriate citation would be nice.

a reply to: The angel of light

You're missing my point, intentionally possibly. Did Nixon feel the need to 'pardon' the Chinese leadership, or Reagan Russia's, and if you feel they did, why? They had also not been arrested or charged with any crime America had jurisdiction to prosecute under.

a reply to: peter vlar

By 1948 Fidel A. Castro R. was well known by the police of many countries of the continent as member of the band of the gangster Emilio Tro, leader of the International Revolutionary Union. That group was accused of to carryout several murders like the ones of students that were against them, like the leaders Manolo Castro, rival of Fidel, Leonel Gomez as well as the police sargent Caral.

Just a day before to depart to SouthAmerica suddenly Fidel was arrested by the Cuban customs office because a lot of Marxist Subversive propaganda was found in his luggage and also a map of Bogota over which all the principal buildings that latter became destroyed were already marked.

He used the influence of his family name to fix that incident, but he told to his girl friend Mirta Diaz-Balart before to depart that he was traveling to start a revolution in Colombia.

After a stop in Caracas, that I have already mentioned in my previous posts, as soon as he arrived to Bogota, he went with his companion Rafael del Pino, to the Argentinian embassy where he received money sent
By the Peronist party authorized by Diego L Molinari.

During the Bogotazo Fidel Castro leaded the assault against the Presidential Palace from the Montserrate hill, twice, before and after he got control of the arms of a nearby police station.

9 days latter when the army regained control over the city in ruins, Fidel Castro ran a way on the streets under intense hunting with his fellow Cuban Terrorists, he was the only one that was able to enter the Cuban Embassy. All his companions where arrested, charged and sentenced to jail.

He was charged in absence , but his family moved their influence with the Cuban Ambassador Guillermo Belt in Washington to find a way to protect him. During his weeks in the embassy he blamed his friends of the principal responsibility in the terrorist attack. He was illegally taken away from Colombia in a cargo plane of diplomatic use when the authorities were demanding his surrending.

Castro was banned for 50 years to try never again to visit Colombia, all the governments respected that decision, but Ernesto Samper's broke it in his disparate attempt to move around the American embargo against his administration due to a huge corruption scandal in his campaign.

On May 3th 1948 Colombia cut diplomatic relationships with the USSR. In 1962 they did the same with Cuba, as soon as became clear that Fidel Castro was going to remain in power for unpredictable number of years.

Many years after the Bogotazo the Mexican Communist Party General Secretary Dionisio Encina told to Jeronimo Arnedo-Alvarez ,who was the representative for Latin America at the Cominform, that they were instructed ,A well as the CTAL, to help to prepare the Boycott of the Second Panamerican Conference and send to Gaitan a proposal thar if he accepted to lead a revolution in Colombia he was going to be fully supported by the Soviet block.

According with Encina Jorge E Gaitan rejected the offering and they didn't have more choice than to kill him in order to make his martyrdom a cause for the revolution.

The only known contact they used to reach Gaitan was the Cuban Revolutionary student Fidel Castro who got two interviews with the Colombian Liberal leader.

I had the opportunity to talk personally with witnesses of the Bogotazo, that were aware of all these facts. Even today there are doubts if Juan R Sierra, who was killed by the furious crowds as the Assassin of Gaitan, was who really shot the fatal bullet.

Nevertheless, there is a good article containing important part of this same information published in January 9th 2011 title The secret wars of Fidel Castro by Juan F. Benemelis, in Baracutey Cubano, directed by Pedro Pablo Arencibia-Cardoso.
There is also famous interview from 1960 granted by Castro to the journalist Kurt Singer in which he confess that he entered to the Cuban Embassy in Bogota to escape from the arrest.

Yes Fidel Castro has been an international terrorist since 1948, his first strike was even worst than September 11th 2001.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: peter vlar

I continue my response to your question since the space in only one post was exceeded.

On April 6th 1948 both Fidel Castro and Rafael del Pino were arrested by the police in Hotel Claridge after employees of The Colon Theater reported them as handing Subversive propaganda to the public. They were released when the police found their students credentials.

They were carrying a letter of introduction from the Dominican opposition leader Juan Bosch to the Venezuelan Politician Romulo Betancourt, that they tried to meet in Caracas after their arrival to that country on March 23th 1948. Such a letter was used to convince the police that they were just students.

After the assassination took place the police detectives Diego Quinones-Olarte and Santiago Camargo, who were present during their detention, identified them as the two individuals that he saw meeting Juan R Sierra, the Assassin, just two hours before the crime in the Columbia Cafe.

This report is filed in the detective 106 office of Bogota of April 19th of 1948. In the same report another guest of The Claridge Hotel declared to have seen the Cubans coming back to their room with arms and speaking in the hall of their common floor of how successful was their strike, the witness was Mr. Guillermo Hoenisberg.

I need to clarify that there was a typo in my previous post, Castro and del Pino were both able to enter the Cuban embassy and request assylum.

Although great part of what is in books about the role of Castro in the Bogotazo is in Spanish, you can find important details in the book the last American rebel in Cuba by Dr. Terry K. Sanderlin

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light
In 1995 Castro visited Colombia and was well received, at the request of his late friend Gabriel García Márquez, Fidel ditched his usual fatigues and wore Guayabera shirt. Maybe Fidel's pal the Nobel Prize Laureate was not a fan of his countryman Jorge Gaitan?

The least we can do is to research the different perspectives, and form our opinions on a broader field.

"The era when weapons solved problems is ending. A new period is beginning in which the people's political consciousness, historic needs and ideas will change the world."
-Fidel Castro's speech on his return to Harlem on the occasion of the 50th UN Anniversary.

Not bad for a badass who outlived 9 US presidents who more or less wanted him dead. Chomsky also said that if the world will adopt the Nuremberg Trial as the model to prosecute those that committed crimes against humanity, all of the US presidents since WW2 era will be found guilty by the court without exceptions.

There is also this Gallup Poll a few years back.

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Dear MaxTamesSiva,

Yes, Gabriel Garcia Marquez needed to wait so many years to be able to receive Commandant Fidel Castro in his house in Cartagena, when finally Ernesto Samper-Pizano, for mutually convenient reasons decided to break the ban against the Cuban Leader to enter Colombia.

Now, what this prove? essentially nothing that is beyond a mere personal preference or fascination of a writer with a person that has the attributes of power.

We have seen this politicians - intellectuals affairs before:

In 1976 Jorge Luis Borges, the so famous Argentinean Author who remained as candidate to the Nobel Prize for many decades, met the Chilean Dictator Augusto Pinochet in Santiago and even accepted from him an award, that many believe was definitive factor to prevent him to never receive the Swedish Academy one.

www.mirror.co.uk...

Pinochet had launched along decades not only terrible brutal repression in Chile, after the coup d'état he leaded to overthrown President Salvador Allende, but also exported state terrorism in the so called Condor Operation that killed a lot of political refuges in other countries, including USA where Orlando Letelier was Assassinated in Washington DC on September of that same year.

Along History there are many other examples of great Writers that were seduced by strong political figures, Voltaire spent years in the court of Catherine II of Russia, he was officially her protégé.

www.theguardian.com...

Letter from Votaire to Catherine II

Now , the same privileged status was enjoyed by Sir William Shakespeare in the Court of Elizabeth I Tudor. They shared an interesting mutual admiration and respect.

www.shakespeare-online.com...

Now, I have a question to you, from your citation of Chomsky: I am curious in which sense and for what crimes Presidents Jimmy Carter or Gerald Ford would deserved to be sent to trial due to crimes against Humanity? because I don't see clearly what can be to be honest.

Finally, also responding to Chomsky comment, without a President John F Kennedy probably we should not have anymore humanity since 1962, since he was the one that stopped in peaceful way the most explosive and dangerous crisis of collision in between Nuclear Powers of the Cold war and ever.

If in October of that Year and with respect to the presence of Soviet Missiles in Cuba we would have had not him or Nikita Khrushchev in Power but Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin probably we never would have even the chance to start this conversation.

Thanks for the interesting comment,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Yeah, we know he was a bad guy.

But..

When are you actually going to show when/where he was convicted?

a reply to: The angel of light
Yes I agree, maybe it has something to do with personal preferences. The difference between Marquez and the 3 great writers you mentioned- Borges, Voltaire and Shakespeare is that their friends were not accused or at least suspected for assassinating a presidential candidate in their own countries. There wouldn't be much trouble inviting their famous friends to visit them at home... well except Pinochet, which is a special case, he was supported by guess what country? The U.S. and maybe Britain to topple Allende.

Regarding Carter and Ford, two words- East Timor. Again the U.S. (and Australia) supported the Indonesian regime and the genocidal murder of some 200,000 people in Timor, mostly Christians. There was almost a total news black out from the Western press.

We have to remember that Kennedy tried to overthrow Castro before the missile crisis. Now it's my turn to ask you a question: if you were Khrushchev and you just found out that the Americans sent some old nuclear missiles to Turkey and aimed it at your direction, how would you feel? Maybe also send a few nuclear missiles to Cuba?

There are different sources of information, sometimes we subscribe to the ones that mirror our preferences.

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Hold on, don't go so fast, you are making conclusions that are wrong by the way: The two cases you consider cleaner are perhaps worst than the one has caught your attention.

Catherine II of Russia was really a German Princess that became Empress first because she married the inheritor of the Russian Throne , Prince Peter, but he died just six months after arrive to power, in circumstances that were part of a coup d'état supported by some members of the nobility, all of them her closer friends for years, that were not in favor that he ruled at all.

Elizabeth I Tudor arrived to the Throne after the extremely mysterious sequence of deaths of her two half siblings that preceded her in the succession of the Throne: Edward VI th and Mary 1st , and knowing that she was consider illegitimate in order to assure her throne she didn't hesitate to jail her own cousin Queen Mary Stuart of Scotland, who died in prison.

These two ladies are among the monarchs that ruled longer in History, they both modeled two of the biggest empires ever, they had both more power in their hands than any President of any modern Country at all, including the USA of course.

Notice that my comment about the Crisis of Soviet missiles in Cuba 1962 exonerated both Kennedy and Khrushchev as well, after all those missiles in Turkey were there even before when Eisenhower was still in Power.

One final comment, because I unfortunately don't have more time to spend here due to my professional duties, if anybody else wants to continue digging in the participation of Fidel Castro and Rafael Del Pino in the Assassination of Gaitan I would suggest to check the following materials:

1985-09
Cuban support to Latin America and Caribbean
insurgencies: 1978-1983
Butler, Susan Hartley

That you can check at :
calhoun.nps.edu...

And in particular to its reference source book:

Weyl, Nathaniel, Red Star over Cuba , Devin-Adair Company,
1960.

Please don't ask how many Colombians believe in the conclusions of the official investigation really never closed on the Assassination of Gaitan, they are less than the ones that still believe in the Warren Commission Report on the JFK here in America.

Everybody knows that to commit a crime of such importance Juan Roa Sierra was competent just only for the role of patsy, in a similar way that Lee Harvey Oswald was.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light
Okay you got me, I thought I was off the hook. See, my propensities are showing.

Catherine II of Russia visiting Voltaire in France or in Great Britain or Switzerland might entail a variety of complications. Will it be possible? We will never know, we can only speculate. Elizabeth I visiting Shakespeare incognito to watch a play of her protégé in London might sound like a great sub-plot to a movie or the possibility of the Queen's low profile visit to Warwickshire, again, is it possible?

Now Pinochet visiting Borges in Argentina? Hmmm... I tell you what, I'll read up and get back to you. Aren't you sneaky? I appreciate it for pointing that out.

F. William Engdahl also has a lot of interesting takes on history and US world policies.

a reply to: The angel of light

President Obama is Dissed again , will this Man without a Clue Ever Learn what it means to be President of the United States ? The guy has 8 months to Finally figure it out before he winds up on the Trash Heap of Ancient Forgettable History ...


Fidel Scolds Obama in Essay: We Don't Need Your 'Presents'



www.newsmax.com...

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

Yes Dear Zanti Misfit,

Neither Raul or Fidel Castro has showed to be grateful at all with Barack Obama political gesture, as a matter of fact both have released communications to the media that express to the contrary certain level of sarcasm about it.

It seems they are enjoying a lot that the US is trying to seduce Cuba and they are playing the role of the woman that knows how to arouse a boyfriend just to left him in the altar the day of the bride.

The last Public message of Fidel Castro clearly express that he expect to die being still in a Socialist country and also that he consider Marxism as his faith and Communism as his legacy.

I am afraid that History in the long run may say that the Castro brothers fooled the Obama Administration and never surrendered their traditional positions at all, it does not look they are planning to do any political reforms, although there has been a lot of economic reforms since 2007, gradually opening a new Market for small Cuban entrepreneurs and since 1992 for European investors.

Now, what the People of Cuba is thinking right now is a very different Story, they can be taking all this Castro Mockery as a justification to try to oust Raul as soon as Fidel be dead. Anyway Raul has declared his will to rule only until 2017, so a new government must come with new ideas.

The younger Cuban politicians inside and in opposition to the Communist party have seen that US is doing their part, many new generations of Cubans have witnessed the nation that has been drawn by the political propaganda as an evil country for decades being actually more friendly than what the regime accepts.

The dead of Fidel Castro may open the door for a huge political change soon, as it happened when Mao Tse Tung died in China, or Joseph Stalin in The Ussr.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Zanti Misfit

Yes Dear Zanti Misfit,

Neither Raul or Fidel Castro has showed to be grateful at all with Barack Obama political gesture, as a matter of fact both have released communications to the media that express to the contrary certain level of sarcasm about it.

It seems they are enjoying a lot that the US is trying to seduce Cuba and they are playing the role of the woman that knows how to arouse a boyfriend just to left him in the altar the day of the bride.

The last Public message of Fidel Castro clearly express that he expect to die being still in a Socialist country and also that he consider Marxism as his faith and Communism as his legacy.

I am afraid that History in the long run may say that the Castro brothers fooled the Obama Administration and never surrendered their traditional positions at all, it does not look they are planning to do any political reforms, although there has been a lot of economic reforms since 2007, gradually opening a new Market for small Cuban entrepreneurs and since 1992 for European investors.

Now, what the People of Cuba is thinking right now is a very different Story, they can be taking all this Castro Mockery as a justification to try to oust Raul as soon as Fidel be dead. Anyway Raul has declared his will to rule only until 2017, so a new government must come with new ideas.

The younger Cuban politicians inside and in opposition to the Communist party have seen that US is doing their part, many new generations of Cubans have witnessed the nation that has been drawn by the political propaganda as an evil country for decades being actually more friendly than what the regime accepts.

The dead of Fidel Castro may open the door for a huge political change soon, as it happened when Mao Tse Tung died in China, or Joseph Stalin in The Ussr.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

The snail's pace of the US response to the fire at Cuba's supertanker facility in Matanzas last August reflected Havana's recalling of how Fidel Castro in a speech in New York to the Council on Foreign Relations in April 1959 said that he would not beg the United States for economic assistance. That message was repeated by Fidel in an op-ed written in the Granma newspaper not too long after Obama's presidential trip to Cuba in March 2016.