Remember when Political debates Were like This:

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: RadioRobert

Seriously? Dude, there are already a ton of tunnels between the US and Mexico. Drug cartels control them, and will probably stop moving drugs and start moving people if we get this moronic wall built.

Yeah, there are tunnels everywhere. I live in a border state. They're found all the time. There are tunnels across lots of borders. Does that mean everyone should open up their borders?

Locking the doors doesn't completely prevent car theft. People still break into cars. It's not that hard. In fact I can start one without the keys. People do it all the time. Should we just leave our cars unlocked with the keys in the ignition since we could never completely stop people from stealing cars?

We're just going to end up trading one problem for another because we aren't addressing the underlying issue.

In the 26 years from that clip to today, what exactly has been done to address the underlying issues? Why would I think that's likely to change in the indefinite future?

Maybe we should buy everyone a car to fix the underlying issue of carlessness. That's way more practical than locking the door...

a reply to: RadioRobert

It's not my fault that the two-party system can't come to some kind of compromise.

Let it be known, if we kicked out all the illegal immigrants from Latin American countries -- your favorite restaurants would all shut down overnight. I'm not joking. Having worked food service...

Everyone wants to shut the border down and kick em' all home. Well, that's all fine and good on paper...until suddenly all that cheap labor goes out the window.

And, lets not forget that we are getting FEWER immigrants now than before. More are actually leaving the USA, rendering the necessity of a wall kind of moot.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Don't be fooled by their rhetoric. Most of them don't actually want them gone, in one capacity or another.

For instance, a lot of people who claim they want illegal immigrants gone have no problem hiring them for low wage yard work or to keep prices cheap/affordable when getting work done on their houses or properties. And many of these same people have office positions at companies that gladly hire undocumented workers (cheaper pay, less complaints, and less benefits). Then there are the people in the construction and agriculture industries who are desperate to keep cheap undocumented labor.

And of course, there's the "hush hush" undocumented immigrants in the sex & illegal drug industries. Every year, there are thousands of cases of undocumented females being forced into the "underground" sex industry in America. The majority are tricked into it by shady overseas travel agencies and job agencies who are actually human trafficking rings (many with ties to cartels and gangs). Some women even borrow a lot of money for good "job placement" programs that supposedly pay more than enough to pay off the initial debt. Of course they wind up deep in debt, their travel documents provided by their "agents" turn out to be forged, and their families back home are in danger if they snitch or can't pay up.

This is one of the aspects I've been trying to expose about the human trafficking system, because it's literally nothing like the rhetoric politicians and commentators talk about. The real reason they keep undocumented workers stigmatized is to keep them quiet about their horrible work conditions. It's literally a second class of workers that aren't subject to American labor laws and that can simply get arrested or deported if they dare "rock the boat".

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: RadioRobert
Everyone wants to shut the border down and kick em' all home. Well, that's all fine and good on paper...until suddenly all that cheap labor goes out the window.

Well, no. I'd like to shut the border and see a way to get a good number of them on work visas. I think they should do that legally. Our work visa program is just short of ridiculous at the moment; it is completely broken. That's a prime motivator for people to cross the border illegally. I would like to aggressively hound the companies hounding illegals, because that artificially depresses wages -- and those workers are not paying into the system, but still using/straining public services. That'd be good for, you know Americans (please don't tell me lettuce is going to cost $12 a head. You're smarter than that). I really don't care that cheap labor goes out the window; that's part of the problem. I thought you were for a liveable wage? Or do you only want liveable wages for American citizens, but are happy exploiting the brown people coming here to scratch out a living?

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: MystikMushroom

Don't be fooled by their rhetoric. Most of them don't actually want them gone, in one capacity or another.

I think this is grossly true for a good number of people on both sides of the aisle, and this is why nothing has actually gotten fixed. Everyone says they want to fix it one way or another but the congresscritters (or the interests they are beholden to) are addicted to cheap labour. It's definitely a huge part of the problem.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I don't know how I missed your human catapult - fair post earlier. Gold

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I don't know how I missed your human catapult - fair post earlier. Gold

I mean it's kind of ridiculous, but it had my literally laughing out loud for quite a while. I couldn't NOT share it. We get so serious on here from time to time, a few laughs now and then are sorely needed!

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I definitely agree. I'm pretty moderate about a lot of things (I guess most people feel that way, and most don't consider themselves fanatics). I just think there are common sense solutions that 80% of the population could probably sit down and figure something out that is at least better than the current system, but the 10% of loons on either side gum up the works. You and I could probably spend two hours and come up with a plan that neither of us really likes but that we would both agree is better than what is currently going on. Instead we've spent 26 years and basically NOTHING has changed. No wonder everyone is so frustrated.

a reply to: Spider879

Ah, yes! The Good Ole Days before the exponential rise of the Mexican drug cartels, 9/11 and the subsequent terrorist threat, the housing bubble, The Great Recession, the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs to China, the rapid decline in the US educational system, huge increases in gang violence, the overwhelming of the health care system....ah yes, the 80's.

originally posted by: RadioRobert

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: MystikMushroom

Don't be fooled by their rhetoric. Most of them don't actually want them gone, in one capacity or another.

I think this is grossly true for a good number of people on both sides of the aisle, and this is why nothing has actually gotten fixed. Everyone says they want to fix it one way or another but the congresscritters (or the interests they are beholden to) are addicted to cheap labour. It's definitely a huge part of the problem.

Yep. It's one of those social "taboos" that are really just used to control people or inflate profits. If they could find a lucrative enough way to legalize all undocumented immigrants, they'd change their tunes immediately.

note: It's not just like this in the US, either. The wretched "kafala" system in many Arab countries also does this plus the things I mentioned in my earlier post. In Saudi Arabia & some of the other GCC nations, many times they don't even pay the poor migrants for the first 3-6 months. And those "work visas" are only valid for that specific employer (who also takes possession of the worker's passport and documentation for the duration of their stay). When combined, these practices create a system of near slavery, which shouldn't be surprising since most of those countries just abolished slavery in the 1950s & '60s.

However, many poor countries keep nudging/allowing their citizens to go, regardless of the numerous complaints, abuses, and deaths. That's because the "remittances industry" is simply too lucrative. Many poor countries rely on remittances from their citizens abroad (remittances are just funds sent back home). Those remittances are both taxed by the govts and serve as important injections of capital into their local economies. It also allows the businesses in those countries to keep their own wages low, since their customers may be getting their own incomes supplemented by family members overseas. And Western govts use "aid" programs and international trade groups to pressure those poor govts to keep the system in place.

It's all connected by design. But citizens and workers are convinced to fight each other, when the real culprits profit from the discord.

a reply to: queenofswords

The Cartels were still around back then. And I'm sure you're not forgetting that little thing called the Cold War and the constant threat of nuclear "mutually assured destruction", right? Ah, the good ole days of nuclear bombing drills in grade school, the global "Red Scare", GRIDS/AIDS fearmongering ("gay related immunodeficiency syndrome", the original name for AIDS), Black Friday & the 1987 Savings & Loans crisis, etc...

And you may want to check out Reagan's actual policies. He & Congress literally funded the groups that would later be called "Al Qaeda" in the Afghan-Russian War, which lasted until 1989 (so what was that about the terrorist threat?). There was also some Bin Laden guy back then who was helping in Afghanistan, too. Oh yeah, then there was that whole Iran-Contra scandal, where Reagan's CIA was selling weapons to Iran's Mullahs in order to fund the CIA's illegal wars in Latin America. And then that whole CIA-coc_ine epidemic that Gary Webb exposed, that showed Reagan's CIA was shipping drugs into the US while he was pushing the War on Drugs. Then there were these great gems with Reagan & the actual Taliban leaders meeting in the White House...

And him dedicating this Space Shuttle Columbia launch to the Afghan "freedom fighters"...

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: Spider879

Ah, yes! The Good Ole Days before the exponential rise of the Mexican drug cartels, 9/11 and the subsequent terrorist threat, the housing bubble, The Great Recession, the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs to China, the rapid decline in the US educational system, huge increases in gang violence, the overwhelming of the health care system....ah yes, the 80's.

The 80ts were the time of the crack wars, Mariana boat lift where once a Cuban toe hits U.S dirt you were home free, no matter what your crime might have been as long as you were anti-Castro, btw a courtesy not extended to Haitian refugees escaping the murderous wrath of "Baby Doc Duvalier" and his dreaded Tuntun Macoute , but it's ok he was our guy and an anti-commie .

You both missed my point.

But thanks for the history walk down memory lane.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Jesus Christ, that guy is my freaking hero.

ALL HAIL REAGAN!