I Don't Understand Death, Nobody Does!

a reply to: spygeek

You weren't giving subjectivity, you were being almost rude and condescending. Using terms such as: "Hullo..."

As far as the scriptures you used, they are all well and good. But they don't contradict each other.

For example the one you used in John 11 where Jesus said that Lazarus was sleeping, he was not contradicting the fact that he was dead. In fact when his apostles thought he was talking about literal sleep he let them know clearly that Lazarus had indeed in fact died.

And the scripture you used showing us that Jesus is going to resurrect those to heavenly life during his second coming, those called and faithful, also does not contradict any scripture that says they are dead and the dead do not reason, and are in fact sleeping.

Where are the contradictions?

originally posted by: LifeisGrand
a reply to: spygeek

You weren't giving subjectivity, you were being almost rude and condescending. Using terms such as: "Hullo..."

What's rude or condescending about "Hullo? " It's a perfectly normal, accepted greeting where I am from.

As far as the scriptures you used, they are all well and good. But they don't contradict each other.

For example the one you used in John 11 where Jesus said that Lazarus was sleeping, he was not contradicting the fact that he was dead. In fact when his apostles thought he was talking about literal sleep he let them know clearly that Lazarus had indeed in fact died.

Jesus said he was "traveling there to awaken him". If he had died, he would have ceased to exist, and therefore could not be woken. This is the contradiction I was referring to.

And the scripture you used showing us that Jesus is going to resurrect those to heavenly life during his second coming, those called and faithful, also does not contradict any scripture that says they are dead and the dead do not reason, and are in fact sleeping.

Where are the contradictions?

How can you resurrect something that has ceased to exist? How can something that has ceased to exist be described as "sleeping", or anything at all, other than not existing.

What of Lazarus and the rich man? They both clearly still existed after dying, one in fiery torment and the other in heavenly comfort.

How are these not contradictions?

what if you could find out for sure at least a bit about death?
but did not have any outer evidence for others, but only self evidence by experiance?

Would/do you trust yourself enough to think that is possible?
yes?
Do you think you could at least learn to trust yourself 100%?
yes?

if that is so, everyone who can sit can meditate.
"DIE" during meditation for...let's say... three hours and see what happens.
This may take a while, but with enough training three hours of perfect natural silence (complete detachment from body/mind/senses) during meditation would "open" your mind quite a bit. And you would have your answer...maybe not full answer, but a bit of a teaser for sure! : )

Spoiler alert:
it is not the END, but it is also probably not what you or I may imagine...
sooo the only way to find out is to do it and "die" already before the real deal comes!

: )

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: spygeek
If fundamentally what we are results in life then it is possible we will be alive again in perpetuity.

If "fundamentally what we are results in life", then that implies that we would have required nothing but our own existence to be alive. This is illogical and clearly not the case. A great many things preceded us and resulted in us having life. Life is very much more than the "fundamental" material makeup of homosapiens. It is a chemical process originating around 3.5 billion years ago, by current estimates.

Fundamentally, the physical universe results in life. There is nothing to suggest that an individual life can reoccur in a perpetual state.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: spygeek

To be clear I am presenting that the moments are perpetual.

But what kind of moment? What definition of "moment" are you using to present this?

"Moment" carries different definitions, depending on whether you are referring to a "moment" of time (a medieval measurement of time equating to 1/12 of the time from sunrise to sunset), a "moment" in physics (a combination of a physical quantity and a distance), a "moment" of force (the product of the force multiplied by the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the pivot or point where the object will turn), etc.

A moment is a finite, measured amount of time or force. If it was perpetual, it would cease to be a moment, it would simply be "time", or "movement", or "force".

In respect to everything that is happening within the context of a moment every where, at once.

In relation to a moment.

You are losing me here.. Are you saying that an individual "life" can be considered a "moment"? That all the events during an individual's "moment" define that life?

How is "perpetuity" inferred by a finite measurement of movement or time?

a reply to: spygeek

I would perhaps believe your "Hullo" was a greeting if it was done at the beginning of our conversation. In fact you did not greet me.You used that word in the middle of your chastisement, and in a condecending way. If you would, I can actually quote you to show you.

As far as Lazarus being dead. Jesus DID say he was dead:

(John 11:11-14) . . .After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died,


It's all quite plain.

Jesus referred to death as sleep because he has power over death. And I realize that is where you cannot comprehend any further and left boggled and without understanding.

Those who understand that God has the ability to recreate life have no problem with it.

In fact even now, humans in our primitive technology can open a video and watch the images and hear the voice of dead people.

If we can record these things you have the doubt that God can record everything about the person and store it if he so chooses to bring back to life the person at a later date if he so fit?

Even Jesus said:

(John 5:28, 29) . . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.


As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. It was just that. a parable.

a reply to: UniFinity

The problem with this is that if you actually "DIE during meditation for...let's say... three hours", you would not be coming back.

with enough training three hours of perfect natural silence (complete detachment from body/mind/senses) during meditation would "open" your mind quite a bit.

This may be so, but unless your biological processes have actually stopped, you have not died, for any amount of time. It would not even come close to simulating actual death.

And you would have your answer...maybe not full answer, but a bit of a teaser for sure! : )

You would have an answer to the question, "What happens when I meditate for three hours?". Death is nothing like meditation, it is death.

Spoiler alert: it is not the END, but it is also probably not what you or I may imagine... sooo the only way to find out is to do it and "die" already before the real deal comes! : )

You can't experience death while still being alive. The only way to find out is to actually die. Meditation can not show you that death is "not the end", it can only show you that meditation is not the end.

originally posted by: spygeek

originally posted by: LifeisGrand
Agreed that the chances of our life is so small that to be here is no coincidence.

The chances of our lives are not small at all. Literally everything is a lucky coincidence or divine intervention if you retroactively attribute "odds" to it and ignore everything that actually contributed to it occuring..

As to what I think what happens after death? It really doesn't matter. Everyone has their own beliefs.

But just as your title states aptly that "nobody understands death,"

Hullo there, some of us do understand death, some of us don't find it mysterious or inexplicable.. Some of us have beliefs based in reality..

that would also apply to the dead. They have no knowledge or conscience at all:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all. - Ecclesiastes 9:5.

This goes without saying and hardly requires a biblical reference to back it up..

Actually I'll just requote you. And you tell me if it is normal to, without even greeting a person start to berate them, and then in the middle of your beratement, ,use the term, "Hullo...." not in a sarcastic condescending tone, but rather a greeting.

It is normal where you come from to do that?

Because in my society that is chalk full of arrogance, sarcasm, and being condescending. I only brought this out because you said you use the term as a term of greeting, and I really believe you are lying.

a reply to: spygeek

I am sorry, but unless you have tried it, you have no idea what you are talking about...did you try it?
I thought so...

You are just saying what makes sense from scientific prospective. But guess what, "universe/reality" does not give a crap about science.

Science fails on this front for now, as much as I fail to ballet dance : )

You trust science and what others say, but I ONLY trust myself and my experiences...when it comes to meditation or death!

That is okay, whatever you like...I don't want to change you or anyone.

But being "smart" about something you have no experiance is ...unscientific to say the least, in my humble opinion : )

originally posted by: LifeisGrand
a reply to: spygeek

I would perhaps believe your "Hullo" was a greeting if it was done at the beginning of our conversation. In fact you did not greet me.You used that word in the middle of your chastisement, and in a condecending way. If you would, I can actually quote you to show you.

I meant it as; "Hullo there, I understand death, please don't claim that noone does". It was intended to be jovial, not condescending, I apologise for not realising it would appear that way to you.

My reply was pretty far from chastisement, all I did was point out flaws in your reasoning. I did not scold or punish you in any way.

As far as Lazarus being dead. Jesus DID say he was dead:

(John 11:11-14) . . .After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died,

Then why was he described as being alive in Hades, suffering fiery agony, after death in Luke 16:22 -25? If he ceased to exist, that wouldn't be possible. This is a contradiction.

It's all quite plain.

Jesus referred to death as sleep because he has power over death. And I realize that is where you cannot comprehend any further and left boggled and without understanding.

Now who's condescending? =P

He has power over people who have died and therefore no longer exist, and so he refers to them as still existing. I understand this.

Those who understand that God has the ability to recreate life have no problem with it.

I understand that God has this ability, but the accounts in the bible are still contradictory if you state "God's word teaches that when you die, you cease to exist". Lazarus and the rich man existed after death, because apparently God decided to make exceptions and contradict his word.

In fact even now, humans in our primitive technology can open a video and watch the images and hear the voice of dead people.

If we can record these things you have the doubt that God can record everything about the person and store it if he so chooses to bring back to life the person at a later date if he so fit?

So actually it's: "God's word teaches that then when you die, you cease to exist, (until He decides to bring you back)"?

Even Jesus said:

(John 5:28, 29) . . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice  and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

But there would be noone existing in those memorial tombs to "hear His voice and come out." They had died and ceased to exist, and their remains would be long, long gone. Sure, he has power over things that have ceased to exist, and may refer to them as still existing, but they wouldn't "come out" of the tombs, surely.. Does God resurrect them inside the places of their burials?

As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. It was just that. a parable.

How do we objectively know what is a parable and what is not, in the bible?

Hades is a real place, according to scripture, not just an analogy.. It is realm inhabited by both good and evil departed spirits before the second coming. There are many passages that directly teach that there is consciousness, emotion and communication in Hades. According to Jonah 2:2, Jonah was in Hades. Jesus described it as "just as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster for three days, so also the son of man will be."

While bodies are "asleep" in the grave, those in Hades are viewed as being conscious, according to passages such as Isaiah 14:4-7, 44:23, and Ezekiel 31:16, and 32:21.

originally posted by: LifeisGrand
Actually I'll just requote you. And you tell me if it is normal to, without even greeting a person start to berate them, and then in the middle of your beratement, ,use the term, "Hullo...." not in a sarcastic condescending tone, but rather a greeting.

There was absolutely no "beratement" in my reply at all.. I'm quite dumbfounded that you feel this way.. Where exactly is the anger in my reply? The scolding? The admonishment?

It was intended as a jovial greeting: "Hullo! I am a person who understands death. Apparently you don't think anyone does, would you like to discuss it?"

It is normal where you come from to do that?

Because in my society that is chalk full of arrogance, sarcasm, and being condescending. I only brought this out because you said you use the term as a term of greeting, and I really believe you are lying.

I'm not surprised then, if you live in a society chalk full of these things, that you are conditioned to jump to the conclusion that I was behaving in this manner. It sincerely was a greeting.

Technically, "Hullo" is actually a term descriptive of surprise, as in "Hullo, what's this?".. It has evolved into a term that is used to denote both surprise and greeting, which is what I intended. I was intending to convey something like:

"...your title states aptly that "nobody understands death,..""

"Hullo! I do."

Can we put this to rest now?

originally posted by: UniFinity
a reply to: spygeek

I am sorry, but unless you have tried it, you have no idea what you are talking about...did you try it?
I thought so...

But I have tried it. I meditate frequently. Have done for years.

You are just saying what makes sense from scientific prospective. But guess what, "universe/reality" does not give a crap about science.

I am saying what makes sense from a logical, reality based, objective perspective. Science barely comes into it.

Does the universe not care about logic, rationality, and reality? What does the universe care about?

Science fails on this front for now, as much as I fail to ballet dance : )

In relation to what? Death? Meditation? The effects of sensory deprivation, or disassociation? I have invoked no scientific explanation in my critique of your "meditation can simulate death" assertion.

You trust science and what others say, but I ONLY trust myself and my experiences...when it comes to meditation or death!

I trust both my own experience, logic and reason, and other people's experience, logic and reason. I compare them, seek out the inconsistencies, and try to eliminate subjective bias.. I strive for objectivity, while you appear to shut out and not trust anything that is not your own subjectivity..

That is okay, whatever you like...I don't want to change you or anyone.

But being "smart" about something you have no experiance is ...unscientific to say the least, in my humble opinion : )

But Ido have experience of this something. Years of experience. One and a half decades even..

Assuming someone has no idea what you are talking about or any personal experience from which to speak from, simply because they disagree with you is ...intellectually dishonest and a bit disingenuous to say the least, in my humble opinion.

: )

My understanding of death is, it is a transition.

The minute our harts stop beating and we draw our last breath, our conciseness leaves the body, all your memories are still intact. Immanently a new door opens, we cross over, most of us go home where we were before birth.

My beliefs, and years of research in NDE and ADC which I have had several experiences myself and they are very real.

Science will never be able to prove there is life after death, it's not meant to be. If we all knew what is really awaiting for us after death, then we would never accomplish our mission of life lessons.

I know now that one of my lessons in this life was I had to learn to "forgive". I am a survivor of serious child abuse by my parents.

I had no bonding with my mother and father and there was no love for me. At the age of 14 after been caught as a runaway I begged the family court judge to not return me to my family, that someone will die if this abuse continues.

I got my wish, it was granted immediately that day. My parents where charged with child abuse after I ripped off my dry blood stain shirt and turned around to show the judge, he gasp!

My body was covered with blood blisters and wip lashes and some were pretty deep. This was something my mother and father enjoyed doing to me at home and for what reason, I don't have all the answers to.

I went into foster care and at the age of 17, I got my first job. Please bear with me while I tell this story, there is something very important to all of this related to this forum topic.

I will try and keep it as short as possible.

I had no childhood, I learned to survive, my upbringing was as bad as the children who survived Auschwitz concentration camp.

I went to school with torn clothes and dirty I was an outcast with no friends, yes I was even bullied.

In my early 20's I began drinking and became an alcoholic it runs in my family. I was an alcoholic for 30 years, I couldn't hold a job, I didn't trust people, and I was on the streets for years as a homeless person in different States.

My life was a living hell, I had been robbed, beaten and raped many times on the street, I was also in jail many times because of my alcoholic behavior.

So for 32 years I drank myself nearly to death. I was suffering with anxiety, serious depression, PTS, and many other problems, at that time I didn't know this.

I had a deep hatred towards my parents and at the time I blamed them for all my problems. I was not taught about responsibilities, therefore I was not a responsible person. At the age of 32 I met my 20 year partner who has been deceased for over five years now.

He saw something in me that I couldn't see. I decided for the first time to stop drinking and went to AA, I stayed into AA for two years then I had a mental break down.

I decided to seek professional help and spent 16 years in therapy, two sessions a week and was put on the right medications for my depression, the therapy was very hard sometimes but was worth it, that is when I began to grow up.

A lot of my therapy was about my childhood and I began to understand why I was abused, I realized it was my parents that were mentally ill and had passed it on to me. My very first therapy session was the worst session, that I will never forget.

My therapist said perhaps I should forgive my parents and I lost it, I exploded with such a rage of hatred that now I believed my therapist thought that I was posses by a demon from hell.

At the age of 45 the solution came to me as clear as day, I decided to humble myself and I forgave my parents, the minute I did this a peace came over me that I cannot describe in human words.

I did not go and seek my parents out and say I forgive you, no I have a sister who stays in contact with my mother, I called her and told her I forgive my parents of everything unconditionally and please tell mother for me, for I still choose not to see them. My sister did and my mother response was: He forgives me for what?

The burden is not on me any longer and I wish them the best.

Had I not chose my parents before I was born, and yes I have a memory of (be for birth) of spirit guides showing me three sets of parent that will raise me. The spirit guide said to me to choose carefully the right parents to put me on my path to learn something very important, so I chose the worst of the three parents.

I am glad I did, I would have never learned to forgive had I not gone through the nightmare that was done.

For those that don't understand, there are many credible websites of thousands of people who remember many things before being born, including ACD which is After Death communication and I have had several and one of them was with conformation of things the deceased loved one told me which I later told the relative of information that I could have never known about the individual.

I am a true believer that life on earth is a school to learn life lessons and when our bodies die we continue on to were we come from with all our memories from all our incarnation.

We are all connected, and from my research and life experiences life on the other side is far greater than you can imagine, we are more alive than we are on earth.

What is your earliest Memory / Can you remember being Born ?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

For those of you interested, you can read my story of memories before I was born.

My post is near the bottom of page 3.


Today.

I am 57 years old, I am a new person and I live a wonderful life. I have proudly accomplished many things that some people would only dream about.

Thank you all for taken the time to read my story.

God bless.

a reply to: spygeek

Thanks for sharing mate. Like I said at the beginning, it's just an opinion and I'm essentially thinking out loud.

Yes I agree that death is the end to all biological life, however I guess I'm looking past that.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: angryhulk

Being dead is climbing into a hole and pulling the dirt down over your head, and holding your breath...forever.

Ouch. That sends shivers haha.

originally posted by: spygeek

Hullo there, some of us do understand death, some of us don't find it mysterious or inexplicable.. Some of us have beliefs based in reality..

spygeek, I know you are certain of your own beliefs, but remember, that's all they are.

originally posted by: spygeek

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: spygeek

All you have to do is die, to find out you didn't...
And won't you be surprised when you do...
Seeing as this would be impossible for the dead...

????

Wow, so deep. /snark

This is complete and utter nonsensical gibberish.. I can do it too..

No need for any of this mate. It's sharing of opinions, not a battle of words.

originally posted by: Informer1958
My sister did and my mother response was: He forgives me for what?

Wow, this made me angry!

You're a strong person mate and sorry to hear about your childhood.

I am a true believer that life on earth is a school to learn life lessons and when our bodies die we continue on to were we come from with all our memories from all our incarnation.

That's an interesting way to look at things.

I do .. she has a wicked humour

a reply to: spygeek

aha I am sorry, you are right, I assumed that you have no experiance. My mistake!

can you then meditate for longer periods of time without effort?
can you stay at least three hours in NATURAL silence without thought, effort and any movement, perfect stillness within and without? - this is very important. If there is ANY kind of resistance you will not advance in "spiritual" development...and after a while you can truly enter "the void". And "there" "you" can learn about death if you want or anything else. Google samadhi, satori or kensho, this is what I am pointing to...This is the sweet fruit of hard practice of true meditation, in my opinion.

In deep natural meditation many experiences will occur - before entering "the void", depending on your own "spiritual" development.
For me the first "experiance" in natural silence was of "chakras" and "prana" and it only goes on and on...From weird to weirder, that is why science in relation to meditation and real nature of reality is failing like I do with dancing, imho : )

Reality/universe does not care about anything, it is what it was, is and will be. If anything at all, I would say it cares about true unconditional love and we are learning to do that in our life cycles. As animal or human or other beings. ...Well maybe? this is what I think for now from experiance. This is also what religions, spiritual and philosophical systems have in common and I think there is a good reason for it. And in advanced stages of meditation when one is in "the void", the importance of pure love gets understood.

we can interpret reality with the way of science (external) or our "minds" (internal).
And internal interpretation is what can lead us to answers like what happens after death, etc,... for now. I believe that science will catch up and than science and spirituality will merge ... someday.
I like to use both also, and I am very happy to read that you do that also and that you meditate - this was a big happy surprise for me!
a lot of people are not so open and stick to science a bit too much, imho!

Well whatever the truth is about death. We will soon find out. this is one thing we can both agree on : )

a reply to: UniFinity

I've actually not long started to meditate. Using an app called 'Headspace' to get me going and to better understand it. It's relaxing, that's for sure!

I've only managed to go 20 minutes or so.

a reply to: angryhulk

waw, that is great, I am happy to read that!

Meditation is for me, the most important tool that nature has given us, more so than anything else that we as humans developed or produced.
And today we don't use it at all...we like science more in general in modern society, what a pity in my opinion.

Keep up with meditations in relaxing manner, don't force anything, just relax and breath. 20 minut is great achievement already!
Try to learn to do it every day and even before meditation clear your mind with breathing deeply and cultivate positive intentions or emotions, than start to meditate and let it all go....true meditation is practice of letting go, of everything. In my opinion.
That is most important at the start, so we form a correct habit.

It is relaxing, that is probably the first obvious benefit and there are many many more...it all depends on you and how deep you want to go. But once it becomes perfectly natural, than the real show begins to unravel "within" and you can peek behind the curtain of you, the world, life or death,...maybe?

I think so, from my experiance. But you know, I can be very deluded and totally wrong, and that is why personal experiences are the key and not what others say. IMHO.