I Don't Understand Death, Nobody Does!

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: angryhulk

I asked the same questions and I found reading the Tibetan book of life and death helped a lot.

And after reading on about reincarnation...things make more sense, perfect sense actually

Just did a quick google search for that book, thanks.

nothing lives forever... not even the universe......dark energy = live at least an state of conciense

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: angryhulk

Sure: Nature

Wow! Love the article.

Certain fears can be inherited through the generations, a provocative study of mice reports1. The authors suggest that a similar phenomenon could influence anxiety and addiction in humans. But some researchers are sceptical of the findings because a biological mechanism that explains the phenomenon has not been identified.

originally posted by: angryhulk
I don't understand death, in the classical sense.

Look! It's a stock photo of somebody edging close to their demise!

This is what I believe. It's an opinion so do not expect sources coming out of my ears. This is me opening up, a little.

Let's begin with life itself. The odds are so stacked against you being alive that you shouldn't be alive at all, but you are! Embrace it. The odds of you being alive are 1 in 10^2,685,000 (a 10 followed by 2,685,000 zeros) and some of you think winning the lottery is difficult.

The post hoc attribution of "odds" to an event is fallacious and nonsensical.

If we start at the big bang, and attempt to work out the odds of life and humans evolving at some point, somewhere in the proceeding universe that is governed by fundamental physical laws, the probability becomes almost certain.

So surely we are meant to be here, surely there is a purpose for us when we open our eyes and our minds and begin to know. It's knowing ourselves, our existence, those around you, everything around you, being inquisitive, learning, adapting, maturing, nurturing, all of these things and more that really begs the question, what is the point? What is the point in all that if you just drop dead when your old and that's it, onto the next.

Then it's up to the individual to decide and assign their own subjective meaning. Objectively, meaning does not exist.

I think our minds, our consciousness and our existence are far too complex to simply end, and nor do I believe there was simply a beginning 28 years ago when I was born. I believe there is something more, something we do not understand.

The complexity of something has no bearing at all on its longevity.

The physical universe existed before your consciousness, and will continue to do so after your consciousness ceases to be.

I am unsure what is not understood..

You know what else fries my brain? The idea of non-existence. You know, nothingness. I want to put this into perspective. The only reason the universe exists is because you know it to exist.

Actually, the only reason the universe exists is because it exists. Before we came it know it existed, it still existed. The universe is not dependant on us for anything, yet we are dependant on the universe for everything.

Total nonexistence is indeed perplexing to the human mind. "Nothing" is a paradox, there can be so such thing as nothing. Having said this, individual things can and do cease to exist, or do not exist, that is not perplexing.

If you simply died and nothing followed, so would the universe (from your perspective) because why should something exist if you don't know it to exist. It didn't exist to (the unborn) you before you were born, so why should it exist to (the dead) you after you die? Maybe I'm rambling here but I know what I want to say. So I guess, why should you fear death in that sense, because you're taking everything and everybody with you!

But wait, that's why I'm here! I don't believe (or know if) it works like that!

The thing is, you don't actually take anything or anyone anywhere when you die. Your consciousness stops operating, and your body breaks down. The universe carries on without you.

When you die, you cease to have a "perspective". You can't "know" or "think" anything exists, because your knowing and thinking consciousness no longer exists.

I don't think you die, you rot in the ground and it's over. I don't believe everything you were taught is forgotten, I don't believe everybody you loved is left behind, I don't believe everything you achieved is lost. I don't understand how one could come into existence, know his/her existence, live their life and simply die. I don't understand death.

Death is an inevitable end for all biological life. If you cannot understand how this can be, then we need to go back to the beginning. We need to explain how biological life is born, how it learns, grows and works and show you how when it ends, it ends.

I guess if you believe in the simple life and death scenario then you believe in this (I read it somewhere) -

If there is no eternity then we can only pretend that life has purpose—whether through religion or philosophy or politics—but it’s all about as substantial as a Hollywood movie. So grab a box of popcorn and have another drink, for all is temporal. What meant something yesterday means nothing today. And for those who are suffering, they are just terribly unlucky. Life is a game of play-pretend, narrated by a narcissist, full of noise and violence, giving significance to nothing

It's possible for one to accept material reality and have meaning in one's life that is not faked. This is a pretty snarky stab at nihilism, not a realistic portrayal of existentialist or materialist, monist or non-religious belief.

I don't believe this is the case, and I desperately want to believe that there is something more, because why shouldn't there be?

Why should there be? What evidence suggests there is? This kind if existential crisis is why religion and faith exist.

The fact you are alive proves that nothing is impossible so why can't life (consciousness, whatever) continue after death. Regardless of what you believe, you don't know everything. You never will. Not till you die anyway.

It doesn't prove that at all. The fact that I am alive only proves that my life is possible.

Biological life can not continue after biological death. Death is the end if life. That is like saying, "so why can't a room stay bright after I turn off the light switch?". It is not logical.

Consciousness cannot survive biological death because similarly, it is a biological process, and requires biological life to exist.

You don't need to know everything to understand biology, neuroscience, and philosophy, to hold a realistic view of the universe and your place in tmy based on evidence and rationality.

So I guess I should ask, what do you think happens when you die?

I know from evidence that when you die, all biological processes cease to function, including those that give rise to consciousness.

I know there is no material evidence for a distinct "soul", and I think that it a poetic expression of a person's individual consciousness. This being the case, it would not survive death.

a reply to: angryhulk

I know, right? It kind of proves consciousness is not a biological process!

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: angryhulk

I know, right? It kind of proves consciousness is not a biological process!

Not really, it only proves that the apparent hereditary predisposition to certain fears in mice has so far no biological mechanism to explain it. It says nothing about consciousness as a whole, much less anything about human consciousness.

It's entirely possible that mice somehow communicate their fears to their offspring, and effectively "teach" them what to fear, as humans do to their own children.. I dare say this explanation is likely. I should like to see the experiment repeated with the inclusion of generations of mice who are separated from their parents at birth.

a reply to: angryhulk

Being dead is climbing into a hole and pulling the dirt down over your head, and holding your breath...forever.

BY JOHN DONNE

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee

Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;

For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow

Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.

From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,

Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,

And soonest our best men with thee do go,

Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.

Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,

And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,

And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well

And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?

One short sleep past, we wake eternally

And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Death is an illusion a misconception an outright fallacy even...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
Death is an illusion a misconception an outright fallacy even...

Your lack of punctuation is causing some ambiguity..

Are you saying "death is an illusion", is a misconception and fallacy..

Or are you saying, "death" is an illusion, a misconception, and a fallacy?

If the former, I agree. If the latter, I have no idea what the basis for the claim is. It certainly cannot be 17th century metaphysical poetry, surely..

a reply to: spygeek

All you have to do is die, to find out you didn't...
And won't you be surprised when you do...
Seeing as this would be impossible for the dead...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: spygeek

All you have to do is die, to find out you didn't...
And won't you be surprised when you do...
Seeing as this would be impossible for the dead...

????

Wow, so deep. /snark

This is complete and utter nonsensical gibberish.. I can do it too..

All you have to do is exist, to find out you cannot exist..
And wont you be surprised when you do..
Seeing as this is impossible for someone who cannot exist..

All you have to do is make sense, to know that you cannot make sense..
And wont you be surprised when you do..
Seeing as this would be impossible for someone who cannot make sense..

Silly word games explain nothing and are a waste of our time.

Agreed that the chances of our life is so small that to be here is no coincidence.

As to what I think what happens after death? It really doesn't matter. Everyone has their own beliefs.

But just as your title states aptly that "nobody understands death," that would also apply to the dead. They have no knowledge or conscience at all:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all. - Ecclesiastes 9:5.

originally posted by: LifeisGrand
Agreed that the chances of our life is so small that to be here is no coincidence.

The chances of our lives are not small at all. Literally everything is a lucky coincidence or divine intervention if you retroactively attribute "odds" to it and ignore everything that actually contributed to it occuring..

As to what I think what happens after death? It really doesn't matter. Everyone has their own beliefs.

But just as your title states aptly that "nobody understands death,"

Hullo there, some of us do understand death, some of us don't find it mysterious or inexplicable.. Some of us have beliefs based in reality..

that would also apply to the dead. They have no knowledge or conscience at all:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all. - Ecclesiastes 9:5.

This goes without saying and hardly requires a biblical reference to back it up..

a reply to: angryhulk

Hello. I've struggled with this for years but let me tell you something. The reason I believe there is more than just this flesh and bones is because of the K-9 Dog. The unconditional love and empathy that can be shared with this animal leads me to believe that love has a source beyond our central nervous system. They will be the happiest beings to embrace you and the saddest while you're away. They'll sacrifice their own well being to defend you.

The goosebumps we get -- yes they are produced by intricate processes of our anatomy but then where do they actually come from; that feeling -- what's the source beyond the here and now? Why did my friend and I magically "ghost" through a near head on collision and come out unharmed? Why have I viewed myself sleeping while I was aware of floating up towards my ceiling as if there were two of me? Why did I shed my skin in an instant revealing what was a humanoid light blue with a white outline figure?

Why did 2 orbs awaken me in the middle of the night and beckon me to the window? Why did a star drop down from the sky like a leaf falling from a tree only to disappear instantly after my comment to self out loud? Why was I awoken in the middle of the night to see a small shadow figure on the floor looking at me? Why did I have an intense, vivid dream of a being zapping me with some kind of lighting rod waking me with intense pain at the same location which would later be the exact place a rare tumor was found and removed by shear chance?

Why have I been viewing a violet flame for 10 years now after a brief encounter with an owl? Why does it feel like it's massaging me with love and beckoning my curiosity? Why did this flame also turn green, yellow, and white at times?

With respect to each their own -- I believe

originally posted by: spygeek
This goes without saying and hardly requires a biblical reference to back it up..

You seem to be in argue mode. I wasn't talking with you but it appears you needed to try and argue with everything I was talking to the OP about. I don't know why.

But I'll help you think of something. Don't you think it is interesting that Scripture tells you that the dead are dead and can't think. And yet there are a lot of religious people who claim to believe the Bible, that don't believe what it says.

Here is another question to make you think. Did you know God's word teaches that when you die, you cease to exist?

The fact that we are alive today in perpetuity presents that we can be alive again.

originally posted by: LifeisGrand

originally posted by: spygeek
This goes without saying and hardly requires a biblical reference to back it up..

You seem to be in argue mode. I wasn't talking with you but it appears you needed to try and argue with everything I was talking to the OP about. I don't know why.

This is an open discussion forum, I'm discussing points raised by people in a thread I am interested and participating in. I'm trying to provide a level of rationality and objectivity, as a counter to the heavy subjective bias I am seeing from many people's posts.

But I'll help you think of something. Don't you think it is interesting that Scripture tells you that the dead are dead and can't think. And yet there are a lot of religious people who claim to believe the Bible, that don't believe what it says.

Amusing, yes. Interesting, not really. People have a tendency to contort and manipulate whatever they read in any book to fit their own preconceived ideas. I expect this kind of thing from everyone, not just religious people.

Here is another question to make you think. Did you know God's word teaches that when you die, you cease to exist?

I'm aware of a few passages that relate this, like Ezekiel 18:20:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

and Revelation 16:3:
"Every living soul died in the sea."

and Psalms 146:4
"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, on that very day his thoughts perish"

and Acts 2:29, 34:
"David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
"For David is not ascended into the heavens."

However, this is somewhat contradicted by passages like John 11:11
"After he said these things, he added: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.”

or Luke 16:22 -25:
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

and 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It can be difficult to determine the bible's position on death, (and many other things), when such contradictions are evident. It's likely that these stem from the number of authors and translators involved in the lengthy period of its authorship, not to mention the large amount of word of mouth, second hand experience, and oral tradition that was handed down over centuries before it was all finally written down, collated and edited.

I prefer to base my beliefs on objective, reality based study. My belief is that anything biological will inevitably die, its consciousness and any hypothetical "soul" or "spirit" along with it. I don't accept resurrection or reincarnation as being acceptably realistic, given what is provided as evidence to support them and what we currently know about the nature of biological life.

originally posted by: Kashai
The fact that we are alive today in perpetuity presents that we can be alive again.

How can it be said that we are alive in perpetuity? "Today" is not perpetual..

How would that present that we can live again? If we are alive in perpetuity then we will always be alive, there cannot be an "again" unless that life ends. If that life ends, it is not perpetual.

a reply to: spygeek


If fundamentally what we are results in life then it is possible we will be alive again in perpetuity.

a reply to: spygeek


To be clear I am presenting that the moments are perpetual.


In respect to everything that is happening within the context of a moment every where, at once.

In relation to a moment.