One Simple Question Makes Pro Choice Activists visibly uncomfortable

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113

if i had no kidneys, knocked you out, attached my blood stream to yours for a dialysis type system, are you not allowed to say i dont get to live off your body? am i allowed to use your body to live?

even if a fetus was a person, one person does not get special rights to live off another person because its a fetus. you are granting special rights to a fetus that aren't granted to regular adults.

What is this? Invasion of the body snatchers?

You are comparing a fetus to an adult. A fetus is a fetus, not an adult. It didn't climb into a womb on its own accord in order to gorge on nutrients. A fetus isn't an organ, it isn't a parasite, it isn't a tumor, it isn't a person—it is a fetus, a human fetus.

When does a fetus become a person in your eyes?

I'm pro-choice, but abortion is morally despicable given the preventability of pregnancy.

is the fetus a person or not? if it is mt question stands, if not, does a non person have the right to use its host in order to live?

a reply to: Hecate666

In nature, as with the animals you've provided, contraception is not an option. Deer don't wear condoms and does do not use birth control. It's simply not available. If it was, I'm sure the very vast majority of animals(maybe excluding giant pandas) would have more condoms than your average teenage human these days...


A2D

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree

originally posted by: vjr1113

so if i hook up my blood stream to my mother because i have no kidneys, is she allowed to say no?

If SHE hooks you up to her blood stream...then she should be responsible enough to accept the consequences. A fetus doesn't just attach itself to someone....

The point was raised that for some, abortion IS the responsible choice...but to me it's a rather blatant cop out.

Should there be circumstances where abortion is allowed? Absolutely.
Should there also be circumstances where abortion is NOT allowed? In my opinion, absolutely!

If there are women out there irresponsible enough to run around with their legs open and ignorant enough to not use protection...they should, IMHO, at least bear the 9 months of consequence for their ignorance. The fetus did not just "attach itself" to her....she made a conscious decision and was willing to accept the consequences...but when the consequences came, she chose not to accept them...and IMO this is become all too prevalent in our society.

Kids are maturing amid a culture in which people no longer own their choices, words or actions...a culture in which there's always someone to blame for why they do what they do. From sibling aggravations at home to classroom conflict at school, kids increasingly take less responsibility for their actions and find themselves growing into young adults who fail in the workplace or other areas of their personal life because they are unable to take correction...

If you're responsible enough to have sex...you should be responsible enough to face any "problems" that arise when you do....(and no, an abortion is more like running away from a problem instead of facing it...)

A2D

PS: I love what LM posted on this page as it echoes my thoughts precisely.

I'm pro-choice, but abortion is morally despicable given the preventability of pregnancy.

it doesnt matter how the fetus came about, if it was rape or consensual, it doesnt matter. it doesnt matter if the fetus has a choice to begin living or not.

the question is, is one person forced to give up their body to someone else under ANY circumstance? in all cases and imaginable scenarios the answer is no. but when the question of pregnancy, you say a woman gives up her right as a person to let her body be used by another person or nonperson.

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree

originally posted by: vjr1113

so if i hook up my blood stream to my mother because i have no kidneys, is she allowed to say no?

If there are women out there irresponsible enough to run around with their legs open and ignorant enough to not use protection...they should, IMHO, at least bear the 9 months of consequence for their ignorance.

I'm pro-choice, but abortion is morally despicable given the preventability of pregnancy.

i think its clear of what you think about women that decide to get an abortion. you think they are stupid and deserve to lose their rights as a person. feel free to defend yourself but that sounds very sexist. i dont care if you get offended, this shaming thats been going around brought by the religious is a plague to society and it makes me sick. sick because you are stripping someone of their rights, because you think a woman should be forced to go thru pregnancy and give up their body for someone else.

Minimum of 1 to 2 years of age. Factors including parents mental health, encome, parents health, amount of time available to dedicate to the child, child getting a disease, Childs mental health, disabilities, learning problems etc. if the child is in perfect health and the parents just can't afford it or don't want it anymore it should first be put up for adoption for a set period of time. If no one is found the state can decide to take the child if they see some potential for them to be beneficial for society.

If people really do care about the human race moving forward this really is one of the only practical ways of doing it.

a reply to: vjr1113

is the fetus a person or not? if it is mt question stands, if not, does a non person have the right to use its host in order to live?

For philosophical reasons, I'm not even sure what a "person" is supposed to mean. It's like the Bill Hicks joke: no one is a person until they are in my phonebook. Arguing whether a fetus is a person or not can lead to such strange conclusions. One thing is for certain, a human fetus is a human, and there is no point at which that fetus is not human. That's enough for me to oppose its destruction in favor of more preventative measures, sex education, and all-round common sense.

a reply to: KingKelson

Being a man some would say it is easy for me to say but it simply is no one's business but the mothers and the fathers. At the end of the day, the mother and father are the creation/god of what is being born. So it is anyone's right to do as they please which what is essentially their body.

It is funny how some act as if this is a horrible thing to do, however once their child is born majority of the time they could not give a sh*t. Well done. Sure as hell the government does not care, just another taxable human.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: superman2012
a reply to: KingKelson
Not sure about when an abortion should be legal but the one time it should not be allowed is if it is being used as birth control.

I'm confused with what you mean by saying that you aren't sure when abortion should be legal then say that it shouldn't be allowed as a means of birth control. So what is the difference between legality and "not allowed"?

I mean I'm not an expert on fetuses. I don't know anything about them. I am not a woman. I should have zero say on when and if an abortion should be legal.
My post was directly about women that get one time and again because they either can't afford the kids, don't want the burden of kids, or were too stupid to use any sort of birth control.

Well how are you planning on making that determination?

I'm not a doctor nor a woman. It should be left up to the professionals to make that determination. Are you seriously looking for an argument, unable to understand my point, or can't come to any sort of conclusion on your own? Just asking because your questions are being answered leading to more questions. If you have a question that you really want answered, according to my beliefs and opinions, ask it. We are adults and should be able to ask what is on our mind. This silliness of question after question becomes boring and needless. Ask what you want to know.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: KingKelson
At what point should it be illegal for a woman to get an abortion, if you (in general) think it should be illegal at all?

At what point?

At the point where republicans start to support birth control, expand sex education, increase funding for women's health clinics, support programs that financially assist single mothers, support paid maternity leave, and stop slut shaming.

THIS x 1,000! That there is even an abortion debate when birth control is not FREE and freely available to all is mind boggling.

a reply to: superman2012

Well I'm not sure if this desire to not let women using abortion as a contraceptive should be enforced legally or is just a moral qualm you are having. Because if you want it to be enforced legally, it would be very hard to enforce. Which is what I'm getting at.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: superman2012

Well I'm not sure if this desire to not let women using abortion as a contraceptive should be enforced legally or is just a moral qualm you are having. Because if you want it to be enforced legally, it would be very hard to enforce. Which is what I'm getting at.

A bit of both actually.

I think it should be enforced legally. How can this be any more difficult than a note on file? They can do this for drug addicts in Canada anyways, don't see it as much of a stretch to add another line and it is reported to authorities or denied after ___ many times.

Moral qualm because I don't know where I stand on the issue only because it hasn't been an issue for me. I can see it from both sides though, that is why I'm fence sitting. If it is indeed a "person" as soon as it is conceived, then this would constitute murder. If it isn't a person at conception, then when does it become a person? How long is too long? I'm not an expert that is why I said what I meant; It should not be used as a birth control. (anyone that has difficulty understanding my meaning, should take it as I meant it, in place of the birth control pill).

a reply to: superman2012

How big of a problem do you think this actually is where there needs to be a procedure to prevent women from doing this though? I really don't think it is as bad a problem as pro-life people like to make it out to be, and I say this as someone who knows a girl who used to get abortions on the regular because she was a huge slut.

a reply to: vjr1113

I don't care if you call me sexist or not...but i'm sorry...if she's ignorant enough to not use protection, and allowing the male involved to not use protection as well, then she deserves much more than just birthing pains....I don't care if you get offended either...

Don't want a baby? Cool. There are ways to go about having sex without getting pregnant. It's pretty simple, especially in the 21st century.

(Also, maybe you want to learn what sexism actually is......)



A2D

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: superman2012

How big of a problem do you think this actually is where there needs to be a procedure to prevent women from doing this though? I really don't think it is as bad a problem as pro-life people like to make it out to be, and I say this as someone who knows a girl who used to get abortions on the regular because she was a huge slut.

Not sure how big or small of a problem it is. I stated my views on it. I clarified it for you. I have no desire to go over all the stats on it. Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-choice, as indicated earlier, but I also believe that welfare is good, as long as people don't abuse it. Unfortunately, there are going to be these types of people.

All I am saying is that me, I, personally, am uncomfortable with the idea of someone getting an abortion because someone forgot the birth control. A pill, condom, spermicide, etc, is much more less invasive and costly than an abortion.

Does that mean it SHOULD be a law? No. Just one I would support. Otherwise, blinders back on.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: KingKelson

I believe the choice should be that of the woman.

So ok if she chooses to abort 8 months in?

a reply to: superman2012

Ok. Fair enough. Sounds reasonable. I guess your original wording just confused me since it seemed hypocritical.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: jimmyx
"52nd trimester" ??...that's 13 years...."national 21 months" ??....that's almost 2 years....to answer your question, it's up to the mother....let me ask you.....what sort of internal surgery would you like, where other people decide if you get it or not, without your permission????
it's the woman's body, she decides....not a mythical god, not a bible, and not another person.

Except it's not just her. There is also the baby to consider.

At what point do you think a baby becomes a being we ought to consider in this equation?

if it's not born, it's not a baby yet....it's still a fetus, it's lungs are filled with liquid, and it's the mother's blood that supplies oxygen, food, water, along with the attached umbilical cord that also safely removes waste products from the fetus..... it's not a separate person.....why is this so hard to understand?

So change the name and that makes it ok?

Ok I here by call you a flesh bag not a human. Therefore its ok to kill you.

originally posted by: frostie
a reply to: KingKelson

In response to the OP,

No man, women, law, policy, order, or any authoritative action or figure,

Should EVER, EVER, tell a woman what she can or cant do with HER OWN body.

1) A baby is NOT a woman's own body. It is an autonomous organism that is genetically distinct from the mother.
2) The female human body is specifically designed to nurture, support and protect a developing baby. It ovulates once a month in preparation to be impregnated.
3) The woman has no individual control over her pregnancy once impregnated. Her personal control over the process ends once the male manages to inject sperm. In other words, she has control over keeping her clothes on and legs together.

These are all true statements. Are you saying they cannot be told to any woman? She should know the facts, right?

a reply to: vjr1113

the question is, is one person forced to give up their body to someone else under ANY circumstance?

No one is forcing anyone to give up their body....if she got pregnant because she CHOSE not to use contraceptives...than she CHOSE to give up her body.

Exception....A woman would be FORCED to give up their body if she was FORCEFULLY impregnated...ie raped.

What don't you understand? I can't break it down any more barney-style than this...


A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

So, in response to the OP's question "At what point should it be illegal for a woman to get an abortion?, your answer is; "When a woman refused to use contraception", right?

How are you going to find that out, when screening women seeking to abort?