A simple message to people around the world watching America - from Plato

originally posted by: TheBandit795
To me Trump and Sanders are not outsiders, but part of the system, and part of the script. They like the rest of the politicians are just glorified actors/puppets. The whole election to me is no different than a WWE show.

I have to agree with this. Arguably the two "outside" candidates - Jill Stein and Gary Johnson, could still be relative establishment. I hope I'm wrong about Johnson. But I don't think either of them will see the light of day unless voters wake up and don't mindlessly walk into the voting booth and check the typical boxes.

Regardless, the only thing that we are getting as voters is royally screwed.

To both Lovebeck and Elementalgrove - I have to say that Trump is both intelligent and ignorant. He is intelligent but not smart enough (ignorant) to keep his mouth shut. He has no filter, if you will. He is working with the establishment but also represents a danger to them if he's allowed to talk too much. I think it's why the majority of his rally speeches are redundant.

i'm from Canada but i sure hope it's not another psychopath in power, enough of these elite bought off Puppets please, not quite sure about Sanders, i think i would give trump a chance, Make America Great Again, Bring back Made in America, 9/11 truth, etc etc.. sounds good to me, please don't hate on me

a reply to: Sublimecraft

...and ill leave this quote,'if you kill me now I will come back as the head of a more powerful nation in need of a leader and you will feel the arm' Benito Mussolini just before his death April 28 1945.

George Soros's candidates are Clinton $800,000 and Kasich $220,000(who today did not deny a brokered convention)

these to me are the two teams in play.

I'm watching this from across the pond and have started to find the whole thing amusing, mixed with a slight concern. I keep reading and hearing, Americans are angry and feeling insecure. I don't really understand this. America is the richest nation on the planet with a military bigger than the rest of the world combined, according to ATS members America is the freest nation in the world, so what you all angry about and insecure about. If your huge wealth and military is making you feel angry and insecure. There must be some serious problems elsewhere in your society so why hasn't your wealth and military defence brought you happiness and security. Why all the anger and insecurity. It doesn't make sense.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Not much to debate about between the two.

Sanders:
Never held a real job in his life
Never did anything but become a politician
Never introduce one bill that passed in 20+ years
Supports a socialist policy. Which by the way has and will never produce anything in the world.

Trump:
Worked sense he was young. (Yes his father had about $150 Million when he died, split between 4. So ~$40 Million to 8-10 Billion is still a accomplishment.)
He has managed and emplyeed 10s of thousands.
He founded a collage. (Yeh it's gone, but how many other started and failed also?) Also by the way MOST collages and universities have been started and funded by capitalist. Never have heard of a school founded by a socialist yet.


Yes I know what Sanders says sounds great, but he is depending on the very people he cries against to pay for it. Socialism by its very meaning has and will never generate the wealth needed to support its great claims. Even today the "great" European countries that everybaody points to are on their last legs and falling. The socialist health care of Europe does not look so good when viewed by the people that have to use it. Check on the waiting list for basic health care needs to see what I mean. My mother inlaw just was told he needed an ultrasound to test your failing kidney. wait time for this? 4 months to get one done. Check on the standard wait times for MRI and such in these "socialist" paradises. Yeh the care is free..if you live until they get to you.

a reply to: dismanrc I had an MRI last week, never wait more than 3 weeks. Sometimes I've had them on the day I felt something wrong.

originally posted by: Sargeras


Want to know who controls you?

Just figure out who you can't make fun of.

This is a horrible idea, as this country is founded on free speech, and I will fight tooth and nail anyone who tries to tell me I, or anyone else can't speak their mind.

Good intentions but bad ideas?

I hope so!

You could just make fun of politicians for true things instead. The T&C point you bolded in the text you quoted is about continually parroting proven false material.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
I'm watching this from across the pond and have started to find the whole thing amusing, mixed with a slight concern. I keep reading and hearing, Americans are angry and feeling insecure. I don't really understand this. America is the richest nation on the planet with a military bigger than the rest of the world combined, according to ATS members America is the freest nation in the world, so what you all angry about and insecure about. If your huge wealth and military is making you feel angry and insecure. There must be some serious problems elsewhere in your society so why hasn't your wealth and military defence brought you happiness and security. Why all the anger and insecurity. It doesn't make sense.

It's because we're jealous of your freedoms!

Seriously though, I live in the US, I think people just have short memories. Most of my countrymen think the economic golden age of the 1990's is the norm. They also think we're in this terrible debt position, when in reality, we're much better off relative to GDP than we were in the 1940's.

It's also become a nation of panicky, fearful sissies.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

Great.

Not the time table I normally hear from England, But I will admit you guys do seem to do a better job then most of the rest over here.

originally posted by: JustAnObservation
a reply to: Sublimecraft

Wonderful OP, I completely agree with you. It is my experience that whenever I try to speak with family or friends about politics, they tend to be entirely stuck in their views and will blindly follow regardless of the reality. Whatever side they are on is completely good and the other is utterly evil. Their choice can do no wrong and they will defend them no matter what, while the "opposition" is always bad. It sickens me.

Try to talk some sense into Trump supporters and youll get the same reply.

a reply to: dismanrc it's not perfect, but it's a good service and one of the more value for money services in the world. We spend less per capita than the USA and get a better service

a reply to: woodwardjnr

But as I understand it you have a mixed system. You can use private doctors or the national health system right?

a reply to: whatsup86

As I said, it doesn't matter which person it is they are supporting, whether it be Sanders, Clinton, Trump, whoever. Everyone I talk to will defend their pick to the death regardless of the facts. I have been called a bleeding heart liberal by conservatives and a heartless conservative by liberals when I try to talk sense into either. It is far from just Trump supporters, the others don't listen to much sense either, though they do call me bad names more often :p

a reply to: dismanrc yep, but there's not much difference between the public and private care. You might get your own bedroom going private instead of being in a bay with others. Anyway let's not go off topic with the healthcare debate

Today i've read on the dutch blog Geenstijl about Trump, how he invites people to commit violence against others.
Accompanied with the following video.



To be honest, when i hear, 'usa, usa, usa' for some strange reason 'Sieg Heil' comes to mind.



Apparently many people must think about Trump when watching The Wall.

originally posted by: dismanrc
a reply to: Sublimecraft

Not much to debate about between the two.

I'm not American, but when it comes to debating between the two, there is little debate: I would back Sanders..

Trump:
Worked sense he was young. (Yes his father had about $150 Million when he died, split between 4. So ~$40 Million to 8-10 Billion is still a accomplishment.
He has managed and emplyeed 10s of thousands.
He founded a collage. (Yeh it's gone, but how many other started and failed also?) Also by the way MOST collages and universities have been started and funded by capitalist. Never have heard of a school founded by a socialist yet.

"I have made myself very rich" -Donald Trump
Bloomberg puts Trump's net worth at 2.9billion, (not 8 to 10). If he had put his father's money in a mutual fund that tracked the S+P 500, and didn't work a day in his life, he'd be worth 8billion..

Hundreds of Trump's employees have sued for labour law infractions, sexual harrassment, and racial discriminitation. In one case, the Trump Organization paid $475,000 to settle a claim with nearly 300 Los Angeles golf club employees in a class-action suit alleging unpaid wages and age discrimination, among other offenses. His businesses have filed for bankruptcy four times, and of these he claims "I used the law four times and made a tremendous thing. I'm in business. I did a very good job."

His "college" didn't just fail, it was shut down after being exposed as nothing of the sort. It was an income generator, disguised as college, that ripped off thousands of strudents: "Trump University" changed its name to "Trump Entrepreneur Initiative", because the Deputy Commissioner for Higher Education wrote that the use of the word 'university' was misleading and violated New York Education Law and the Rules of the Board of Regents. In 2014, New York state Supreme Court Justice Cynthia S. Kern held that Trump was personally liable for running an unlicensed school and for allegedly making numerous "false promises" through his Trump University Trump Entrepreneur Initiative in the State of New York. In addition to the New York Attorney General's lawsuit, there are about 8000 former students who are suing Trump University in two separate class-action lawsuits, claiming breach of contract, false advertising, violation of California’s Unfair Competition Law, and violation of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.

Trump is a climate change denier, is pro-life, wants to build a Great Wall of Mexico, wants to arm schoolchildren, eliminate the department of education, thinks vaccines cause autism, and calls anyone who disagrees with him "losers", "low-energy chokers" or "choke artists"..

"We won with the poorly educated. I love the poorly educated."

"All of the women on ‘The Apprentice’ flirted with me… that’s to be expected”

“You know, it really doesn’t matter what the media write as long as you’ve got a young, and beautiful, piece of ass.”

“The beauty of me is that I’m very rich.”

"The point is, you can never be too greedy."

”I’m, like, a really smart person” -Donald Trump

I fail to see how any rational person would vote for a man like this to become the President of any country.

Sanders:
Never held a real job in his life
Never did anything but become a politician
Never introduce one bill that passed in 20+ years
Supports a socialist policy. Which by the way has and will never produce anything in the world.

Sanders has been a mayor, congressmen, and senator. These are real jobs.

He has extensive political experience, where Trump has none. He won a tight race against the richest person in Vermont for his Senate seat in 2006. Without running a single negative ad.

He has not introduced any successful bills, but he has endorsed positive change and holds rational values. While he is a little extreme in his anti-nuclear environmental position, he understands climate change, is in favour of labelling GMO foods while also stating correctly that they do not cause health problems, he is opposed to government domestic mass surveillance, and he is an advocate for civil rights.

The "socialist policy" he supports is the highly successful nordic model of social democracy. This has in fact produced extremely good results in Scandanavia.

He is not promoting socialism, and he is not a socialist. He is simply supporting a more progressive form of democracy.

The stereotype that the Nordic model is a bureaucratic, Soviet-style mess borders on the wilfully ignorant. In addition to exceptionally high union membership, there is a deep commitment to adapting with the times. To combat outsourcing and wage dumping as associated with globalization, Scandinavia is committed to free trade, trading corporate taxes for VATs. This regulatory environment is known as "flexicurity", wherein ease of hiring and firing workers is offset with skills upkeep towards insuring that they won't go into poverty while unemployed.

"You go to Scandinavia, and you will find that people have a much higher standard of living, in terms of education, health care and decent paying jobs."

"There must be a major economic recovery package which puts Americans to work at decent wages."

"Capitalism does a number of things very well: it helps create an entrepreneurial spirit; it gets people motivated to come up with new ideas, and that's a good thing."

"Finally, let us understand that when we stand together, we will always win. When men and women stand together for justice, we win. When black, white and Hispanic people stand together for justice, we win."

"At its worst, Washington is a place where name-calling partisan politics too often trumps policy."

“There is too much shouting at each other. There is too much making fun of each other.”

“I would hope very much that as part of that discussion and part of that learning process, some of you will conclude that if we are honest in striving to be a moral and just society, it is imperative that we have the courage to stand with the poor, to stand with working people and when necessary, take on very powerful and wealthy people whose greed, in my view, is doing this country enormous harm.” -Bernie Sanders

Not much to debate about between the two.

Indeed so. Between a selfish, misogynist, isolationist, manipulative, egotist sleazeball who serves noone but himself and believes complete nonsense, and an educated, rational, experienced politician who understands the established systems of the US government and wishes to make them more progressive, there is little debate.

originally posted by: earthling42
Apparently many people must think about Trump when watching The Wall.

The scary thing is this is not an exaggeration, after seeing some of his rallies..

“I’m the most militaristic person there is ... There’s nobody bigger or better at the military than I am“

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters." -The Don

a reply to: ketsuko

According to the site rules that isn't allowed but the site had no problem with it apparently. I seen that as rather a creepy av yet amusing at the same time. Surely it shouldn't insight violence compared to what's going on at rallies to people on the internet saying they will go into rallies to fight and or that one side of supporters deserves violence because someone acted out on the other side.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Excellent assessment of our current political situation.

Read Plato's 'Simile of the Cave' in the Republic. Basically, most the population live and act like the chained troglodytes, a few are the one that sets foot out the cave. If you're that one who sets foot out the cave, you must be as frustrated and despairing as he is? You cannot tell people truth and facts, they are simply not interested, comfort and the familiarity of routine is all they crave, even if it means being a type of slave.
Politicians know that if they squeeze fast and hard, people will react, but if they squeeze slow and incrementally, people will habituate to any form of tyranny, and even come to love it.