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The United States of Europe releases the EU Constitution (and the end of national soveriegnty in Eur

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posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 06:53 PM
Well, I guess this means that there will no longer be true borders or national soveriegnty in Europe...

European Union draft constitution unveiled
by Jitendra Joshi
BRUSSELS, June 13 (AFP) - A draft constitution covering 450 million inhabitants of the future European Union was unveiled Friday after a year-and-a-half of gruelling debate on how the EU should run its affairs after its biggest enlargement yet.

Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the former French president who chaired the historic convention, announced he had a text to present to EU leaders meeting for a summit in Greece next week.

The text will then be taken up by an inter-governmental conference (IGC) of current and future EU countries, a rolling series of meetings due to begin in October where many believe the hardest haggling will take place.

In an appeal to the EU heads of government, Giscard d'Estaing said: "The closer you stick to our text, which has been discussed and reflected upon at great length, then the lighter will be your task.

Sounds like they consulted George Orwell for part of the draft....

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 06:54 PM
Europe's ageing population revolts at longer work and lower pensions

Governments of right and left try to impose change

Ian Traynor and Jon Henley in Paris
Wednesday June 11, 2003
The Guardian

Marching in Paris yesterday, Martine, a 49-year-old post office worker, could see her retirement plans slipping away before her eyes. She had no intention, she said, of working longer than her allotted 37.5 years.
"My husband's a teacher, he feels exactly the same. All our working lives we've been planning around that [retirement] date, and now suddenly we're not going to be able to stop. What do they expect us to do? Die on the job?"

Martine is not alone in her anger. The hot summer of Europe's discontent is being brought to the boil by the issue of state pensions as employees are ordered to work longer for less and to dig deeper into their pockets for the privilege of getting less back from the welfare kitty.

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 07:12 PM
" The role of religion will be another hot-button topic at the IGC with many, including the Vatican, demanding the constitution's preamble explicitly mentions Europe's Christian heritage.

"To talk of Europe from a cultural point of view without mentioning the legacy of its Judaeo-Christian roots is purely and simply a historical mistake," according to Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Manuel Durao Barroso. "

Thanks to the Portugal. We cannot count on Belgium or France on that matter ( religion ).

We have now a new " constitution ". Also, I know I'll recieve my new electronical ID-Card in some months. I just don't know when they'll tell me that I have to have my 666 on my fronthead or my left hand.

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 07:21 PM
Question to UP and other European members:

Did any of YOU vote on this thing?

Does it no suck that you now have a new constitution, spelling out your rights, that you DIDNT have a say in?

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 09:26 PM
Boy is this REALLY pissing me off, no we havent voted and we've all expressed our annoyance at being dragged towards this, the UK government is about "edit" our constituition for minor housekeeping issues, but i fear this has come at a bad time, blair is determined to get us in.

Dammit i will NOT be ruled by the french and germans.

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 09:32 PM
Most of the bull# will benefit germanys failing economy (5 million unemplyed and rising
but taking it away from other nations in europe.
Over here in scotland our fish industry has actually collapsed after those bureaucratic idiots decided that because we made the best profit we had to be restrained. 5000+ are out of work so the norwegians and danes can fish their merry little scandinav hearts out and make more money.
Mooore examples, Last month was british food week and it could recieve NO funding because it promoted the uk over euro nations (please like italy or france would uphold that one)
What else do we have.?
Oh...they also banned haggis because cooking it could be unsanitary and also banned bagpipe music due to it being "noisy"
Oh i bet theres more...
Many of our fundamental laws are being rewritten to take europe into our lives.

# Them all

*furious tirade*

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 09:35 PM
And the last time i checked our economy was doing rather peachy (record employment, stock market at new high and consumer confidence up)
We'd lose a hell of a lot of money by changing to the euro too, the pound (£) is about the strongest in the world ($1.61 to £1 which is rougly the same as the euro rate)
Damn them all!

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 09:42 PM
No we didn't get a vote.

The decision was already taken years ago.

Whether or not it sucks depends on your viewpoint. Europe is a large continent with many technological weapons. If it ever descends into nationalist war again, the world consequences would be huge. United it can help change the world.

What the EU is basically doing is merging societies. The one thing they all have in common is money. Tieing them in economically and socially means that no one nation can become a threat to the rest of the union. It maintains a status quo and should bring the Eastern European countries forward.

Whether the physical boundaries will cease there is a question yet to be asked by many.

Europe is turning into the stereotypical version of a New World Order for this side of the Atlantic.
Apart from the decision to enter the EU nearly all European laws are passed without direct assent of the European population. It's politicians are appointed by their own governments and some look to be even more powerful than the government whom they represent.

I certainly don't see the EU as a democratic body as far as soverign states go. It's decisions are swung by governments but not by individual nationalities on their own.

The other major worry is the amount of money that is being syphoned off from the EU system. It seems fraud is endemic and there even look to have been cover ups when guilty parties were discovered.
Hopefully this can be dealt with though.

As for the outcome of European integration?
Europe should become a major player up there with the US. This doesn't necessarily mean that it will become an enemy either politically, financially or socially. One could even see those two societies integrating to form an even more powerful union.

A point of view could lead to one believing that European integration could be the start of a benefit to the world as a whole.

The question is how they would wield power if it is achievable and whether our populations would be able to accept the realisation that we never have truly been democratic and that the nation state is a thing of the past.

The UK is acting smart by not going in at the moment. We have maintained opt outs that allow us to legally bend EU rules. I see our position as being a mediator between the US and Europe - maybe a stepping stone to final integration if it is achievable. We understand both sides of the Atlantic.

Selling Europe to the British people is going to be a hard task. There WILL be a referendum before we commit ourselves. In the meantime we get a few laws passed down from Brussels but there is nothing that really damages our lives.
Our biggest whine was over the trivial matter of whether we could keep pints or litres. Sure, you could see that as being an infringement on our rights but is there really that much of a difference between one group of politicians and another?

We maintain enough of a presence in Europe to have a say, and enough of a distance to please the US.

Possibly we are waiting to see if there will be a short term chance for us to call ourselves Europeans but I see UK integration as having been a done deal that was made years ago. The time of our integration is not yet clear.

Our governments in the UK have historically created an undercurrent amongst the population that means that we cannot fully enter Europe for a while yet - whether this was intentional or not is questionable.
I believe it was.

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 09:46 PM
Damn right its intentional.

You'd think our government would get the message, WE DONT MIX WELL WITH THE GERMANS AND WE DONT LIKE TAKING ORDERS FROM THEM.

Remember the last time they tried to integrate us all.

Oh? Changed People? Well the apple never falls far from the tree.

Oh and screw the french too, what have they done for us lately.

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 09:56 PM
I don't see it that way.
I'm as racist towards our European friends as is the average UK citizen. But Europe is much, much more than just the French and Germans.
They look to be weilding the power now but they were the countries where the concept of a united Europe was first seen.

Who says we'd take orders from foreign governments?

If the social and economic benefits are good, why wouldn't it be in the UK's interest to integrate further?
I'm as patriotic as anyone. I love my country.
If joining Europe is good for my country then I'm all for it.

posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 10:59 PM
well, at least it means germany won't try to take over the world again. no offence to any germans. hopefully this all works out. i do think that the people need to vote on this matter, it's wrong when the person with the largest house on the street says we're changing the hood name from watertown to ville de l'eau without tellin anyone. aint it a bitch. i'm quarter italian so that makes me european? i think, anyway i have an uncle in italy. i'll call him sometime and see what he thinks. i don't like it

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 04:00 AM

Originally posted by dragonrider
Question to UP and other European members:

Did any of YOU vote on this thing?

Does it no suck that you now have a new constitution, spelling out your rights, that you DIDNT have a say in?

The others posters have right. We didn't vote. Anyway, with the EU, we never have to vote. We can just vote for our owns EU rep, but it doesn't change anything, we're allways screwed up.

Since the europeans nation are in the EU, there is allways strikes everywhere AGAINST the EU regulations. But the majority of the europeans are pro-EU, only a few are not pro-EU. And when you're are not pro-EU, or you say/write that you like your country, culture, religion, glorious past, are easily seen as a nazi-fascist-nationalist-war monger.

In the begining, the idea to have the EU was a good idea ( no more wars in europe ). But there is peace and peace. And I don't like the one that we have now. Unfortunately, it's allmost too late and we can't go out from the EU. I just hope the Britishs will not fail in the trap and will stay outside and independant from the EU.

When I think that Bruxelles is the EU Capital, it gives me headaches.

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 04:10 AM
Vive L'union européenne !

The best thing that happened on the old land since the french revolution !

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 04:46 AM
The actual text of the European constitution has only just been agreed.It has not been signed yet and won't be for a while yet.
It looks likely that in the UK there will not be a referendum on the constitution.There has not been a vote in the UK on European issues since the early 1970's.
Other European countries do have referenda on European issues.Eire for example had a vote on the Maastrict Treaty as did many other European countries.

The situation in Europe today can best be compared the the situation in the USA prior to the Civil war.On the one hand are states likes Germany,France,and Belgium who are keen to see Europe in closer political and economic union on the other side the UK and Norway who hope to reap the benefits of union without making the national sacrifices to achieve it.

There is no doubt that national governments would lose some power and consequently the national press will also lose power and as both occupations (politicians and Newspaper Editors/propriators)attract power crazed individuals,asking either group to vote for Europe is a bit like asking turkeys to vote on Christmas or ,to use the American comparison again,asking Slave traders to vote to join the north.
Both are quite happy to manipulate public opinion against a closer union as they have everything to lose.

The majority of articles in the new constitution just unravel the contradictions that arise when an organisation has been signing treaties and making agreements fo decades.Mostly it will simplify European law.Having a written constitution should be welcomed by the British.We after all have no rights written and protected under law.This will be a pleasant change.

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 05:22 AM
At first when I heard of the Euro around 5 or 6 years ago I thought it was a great idea. That was when I was ignorant and thought that the world was utopian. Now I realize that some people just naturally have strong feelings towards certain issues. This Euro EU thing being one of them. It seems as if that some people are not going for this plan. I couldn't see why until I read David Icke's book "The Biggest Secret".

David tells us that the EU will have ONE, yes just ONE central bank. This bank will be the life line or the backbone of Europe. If I am not mistaken this bank is the International Bank of Settlements. For those that don't know that bank is totally criminal. That may be speculation but I believe all banks are corrupt. If you can't agree with that then I can't help you.

So basically this bank will determine the future of Europe. That means that those who control this bank will control the Europeans. So anyone could rob it blind and then Europe would be in ruins.

Am I right or am I wrong????

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 10:24 AM
Its actually the european central bank who control the euro and interest rates etc. It is run by wim duisenberg (dutch).

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 11:12 AM
Anyone else need any MORE proof of the illuminati/Cabal's increasing grip on the world?

"The closer you stick to our text, which has been discussed and reflected upon at great length, then the lighter will be your task."

Yep, since they are so illuminated they've already "reflected upon" it, so that we can have a "lighter" task. I love the symbolic word usage here, they really can't help it.

posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 11:25 AM
As a Brit, I'm not too worried about the ECB. Sure it has some power but it doesn't wield the force that our major financial institutions in London do, and I believe it never will.

Somebody stated earlier that our fishing industry here was wrecked by Europe. I agree. But it wasn't all just one way traffic. In return for handing over our fishing and farming, we received the financial industries that power Europe. The City of London is now one of the biggest financial centres in the world. It dwarfs it's European parteners by comparison.

Deals have been struck between countries and the EU to give each a specific industry which they will dominate.

Interest rates are only a big deal in the UK because of our housing market. We have one of the highest proportions of homeowners in the world. Once the housing market has stabilised I would expect another hurdle for the UK's European integration to have been crossed.

The UK didn't vote on Maastrict like the other EU nations because we didn't have to. Thatcher handbagged her way to so many opt outs that Maastrict is almost irrelevant to the UK at this period in time.

I don't see the media as being any more of a problem to EU integration than it already is at the moment. If individual governments do lose some power, I don't feel that there will be a knock on effect in the media. If anything, they might be for it. Especially if taxes are lowered, VAT is abolished and laws are changed. Media moguls are out there for themseves. If they see integration as being attractive to their pockets, then they will push for it. It's worth remembering that most big News Corporations bend the financial rules anyway. Most of their owners aren't even European and some of the companies aren't even registered on the continent. You also have the fact that some news corporations own media in several different countries throughout the continent - a level playing field could make things easier for them.

All in all, a United Europe could be a very good thing. For centuries you have had some of the most advanced nations in the world fighting and competing against each other. Imagine what they could do if they pooled their resources. Then team Europe up with the USA and you have an economic and technological society that will dominate the planet and be able to imprint itself on societies further afield. If this is done properly the end result would be beyond mankind's wildest dreams.

Imagine a Western World which has no enemies - which might even have integrated other continents such as Asia. The money we waste competing with each other could be put to far better uses.
If man is ever going to reach for the stars he needs to do it as one race.

If the EU has it's way, the nation state will be a thing of the past. This doesn't necessarily mean that people have to lose thier identity or culture. If they can pull it off they will almost have created a socialist dream. Everyone united and working to the same goal.

The hope is that the people in charge have the strength, the integrity, the humility and the wisdom to create a continent where the population lives in productive harmony.

posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 02:24 AM
I do and I don't.

Like I said earlier, I used to think that the world was uptopian. What do I mean by that???? Let me explain:

I mean that I used to think that people naturally were inclined to unity and agreement on certain issues. For example, I used to think that everyone wanted peace and order. HHHHHAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

That couldn't be more untrue. Some people want disorder and chaos. That is quite obvious. Now you might ask who would want such things. Well let me tell you. How about weapons dealers. Would they want world peace?????

I don't think so.

Those people need chaos and war. Without it they would be out of business. That is why people like Victor Bout and German Briceno live and let die. Those people create disorder and for good reason. Why?????

Because it makes them money. Now what does that have to do with the EU????

Well not much. But it does relate to the fact that people naturally are not prone to agree on all issues. Why????

Because people have agendas. That is my point. The fact that agendas of others cause problems for others.

What kind of agenda could cause chaos in the European continent????

Well political agendas for start.

Think about the fact that certain people are puppets to certain political ideals and that causes this disorder I speak of.

Take the Kurdish people for example. What??????

What do the Kurds have to do with the EU????

Well think about the fact that Turkey wants to join the EU. Now do you see???

The Kurds are harshly mistreated by the Turks.(Not just the Turks, but that is beside the point)

Once the Turks get what they want then the Kurds are bound to take the oppurtunity to take what they want. They will take the issue of their cause and throw it in the face of the Turks. They will do so as soon as Turkey hits the international scene. That is the best way to get one's cause in the open. If the Kurds were privy to this which I am sure they are, then they will know that their chance at freedom will come when the Turkish nation gets the attention of the world due to the importance of it's involvement in the EU.

The Kurdish people are good people, but if they are smart then they will take that chance and make it a chance no one will ever forget. Croatians tried to do it in the 70's by hijacking planes, and so did the Palestinians.

Now look at what goes one in those areas. Civil war.

Isn't that bound to happen in Europe as well????

Think about the fact the Czechoslovakia isn't even a country any more. Why????

Because of political agendas.

Need I say more?????


[Edited on 16-6-2003 by Abraham Virtue]

posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 04:07 AM

Originally posted by Leveller
If they can pull it off they will almost have created a socialist dream. Everyone united and working to the same goal.

We know all what's a " socialist dream ".

Ask to the Chineses, North-Koreans or Cambodians.

Socialism and communism are equal to a big failure. When we know what we know about these both ideologies, I wonder why some peoples are still refering on them.

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