The Question of a Lunar Outpost

a reply to: Phage

Thank you.

originally posted by: Quantum12
a reply to: Bedlam

Thank you Bedlam. I know understand. It's amazing we can find planets 50 light years away but cannot find a way to take a high res photo of the moon.

Probably because when they find a planet 50 ly away, they're looking at Doppler and light output from the star instead of imaging the thing directly.

It's sort of counter intuitive, I admit. You'd think you could just get a big ol' scope and crank up the magnification until you could see anything, but it doesn't work that way.

One day, in the far future, when the NRO finally develops the 'perfect lens', gets tired of it, then declassifies it for mere mortals, perhaps you CAN see the landing sites using an Earth orbiting scope. But that will take a long long time.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Brandenburg is full of it. The Clementine mission was more to test the abilities of terrestrial spy satellites (which is why their image pages were hosted by the US Navy), nothing to do with looking for aliens.

I've done a page on some of the Clementine stuff:

onebigmonkey.com...

and also on that image of 'something' near Iszak crater (last section on this page, which is one of 4 devoted to a Syfy documentary):

onebigmonkey.com...

We have lunar photographs that are public domain from India, China and Japan - all of them match exactly the photographs taken by the LRO and other US missions. They also match up with photographs taken by the USSR and USA 50 years ago. It's quite hard to hide something when a lot of the things people are claiming as artificial up there are visible with a decent telescope.

We do have very high resolution images of the lunar surface, and have had since Apollo (the panoramic camera is comparable to the LRO in many cases). The problem we have looking at images of the moon is that we have no reference points - there are no houses, cars or trees to give a judge of scale. Even when we have photographs picking out items a few feet across it's difficult to tell that.

a reply to: spirit_horse
I first heard of Brandenburg in 2011 after he submitted a paper on the subject of natural nuclear fission reactors on Mars, one of which he hypothesized to have suffered a catastrophic explosion. I found this very interesting. I was reminded of years prior when I was searching for evidence of an advanced, technological global civilization comparable to ours today, but which lay in ruins in Earth's prehistoric past. At the time, I was searching Africa for evidence of ancient nuclear activity, especially mining. I learned of Oklo Africa, the location of a defunct uranium mining site. Few things have impressed me more than when I read a statement similar to this one:

...some of the mined uranium was found to have a lower concentration of uranium-235 than expected, as if it had already been in a reactor. Geologists found that it had been in a reactor before—two billion years ago ... and could have gone critical.
Wikipedia

It's quoted out of context, and approximately how I first encountered the issue. You can see my reason for excitement, but this was a natural nuclear fission reactor as Brandenburg was talking about. It's thought to be a process through which ground water was immersing the uranium deposits, resulting in a nuclear chain-reaction. This wasn't evidence of the prehistoric advanced civilization which I was initially lead to believe that it is, but it was still very interesting. So Brandenburg absolutely had my attention.

More recently, I think Brandenburg achieved the attention of many of us when in 2015 he submitted another paper, this time citing evidence for prehistoric nuclear warfare on Mars. I believe there may have been a 2014 paper referencing this matter as well. The discussion is probably beyond the expertise of anyone here on ATS, and certainly beyond my own understanding. Never the less, based on my understanding of what Brandenburg wrote, I found his argument compelling. The facts I went on to investigate also seemed to check out, to the degree which I understood them. There, however, was a problem.

He's discussed this issue at greater length than he did in the short papers, and he made a variety of claims that I can only interpret to be insufficiently based. For example, he says that he's determined the Martian civilization was primitive, specifically likening them to the culture inhabiting Mesopotamia during the Ptolemaic period of fourth century AD. He's talking about the ancient Egyptians at the time thought to be the peak of pyramid building. Brandenburg's basing this on the Cydonian Face on Mars, as well as various images produced by NASA's rovers which many of us here at ATS know and agree appear to depict artifacts. So how did such a primitive culture manage to nuke itself? Well, it didn't. Yet another alien civilization probably wandered by Mars and launched a nuclear bombardment from orbit.

He cites no evidence for this in which I'm aware, but he does warn that Earth may be next. It could be that we can find the answer in one of his books if we're obliged to purchase them:

"New proof of a nuclear catastrophe on Mars! In an epic story of discovery, strong evidence is presented for a dead civilization on Mars and the shocking reason for its demise: an ancient planetary-scale nuclear massacre leaving isotopic traces of vast explosions that endure to our present age. The story told by a wide range of Mars data is now clear. Mars was once Earth-like in climate, with an ocean and rivers, and for a long period became home to both plant and animal life, including a humanoid civilization. Then, for unfathomable reasons, a massive thermo-nuclear explosion ravaged the centers of the Martian civilization and destroyed the biosphere of the planet. But the story does not end there. This tragedy may explain Fermi's Paradox, the fact that the cosmos, seemingly so fertile and with so many planets suitable for life, is as silent as a graveyard. We must immediately send astronauts to Mars to maximize our knowledge of what happened there, and learn how to avoid Mars’ fate."
www.amazon.com...

I don't mean to discredit a man with a great story, nor who presents an argument which starts off strong and still ends as a possibility. However, his approach to the matter isn't what I'd expect or desire from a scientist. He approaches it like a man who had a promising theory supported by facts, and then went on to try to make a buck. Still, it could be an interesting read, and may yet be more informative than I realize.

As far as the remainder of your post goes, the USNRL imagery at highest zoom leaves one's thumb covering four miles. You're more than accurate when you say they failed to "reveal all the details." What we observe is the data provided by the lower resolution, wider angle cameras on the LRO. I have no doubt that the high resolution camera has revealed terrain to a resolution where ones thumb covers feet, not miles. What's more: I'm confident that the LRO is making repeated passes over the same regions. Angling the camera differently each pass would allow for high resolution 3D imagery, leaving little room for interpretation. NASA would certainly generate a large amount of public interest and support potentially leading to a substantial boost in funding if it submitted such imagery to the public. Their disinterest in doing so is then quite suggestive: again, they're hiding something. An unwillingness to release imagery prior to a review also points to this clear fact, act you've said.

I've found the IR mission you've referenced, but the links to the imagery time out. I'd love to see what's been released, and will have to look into this further. Hopefully high resolution IR imagery of the moon still exists somewhere in the public domain. Naturally any civilization would seek a well protected habitat where environmental hazards are particularly severe. The way one would achieve this would be to maximize the strength and density of the medium which shields your habitat from the exterior environment. The cheapest way to do this would be to construct your facility within the confines of a preexisting structure matching the aforementioned description. That is, you'd build underground. As I remarked on earlier in the thread, I think your best bet would be build inside one of the tunnels near the surface which lava once flowed through, this way you could further reduce the time and resources necessary by minimizing excavation. Apollo astronauts were investigating these tunnels while on the moon, and with good reason I suspect.

I've seen the crashed ship imagery before, but I'm not personally convinced that's what it is. It looks to me far more like a depression such as a canyon where the edges are obscured by shadow and the center is better lit. That's my impression in any case, and I think this enlarged and enhanced image I've created suggests this:

I think I would've been terrible at geospacial intelligence though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm often not even sure if I'm looking at a crater or a hill.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: spirit_horse

Just zoom in an scroll right a little and you will see it there. If it is a hoax, then there is some high powered people playing hanky panky on the original Apollo Image Library server at the Lunar and Planetary Institute.

No. Not a hoax. The image is authentic. But there are also higher resolution images of the area. Here's 9625, taken shortly before 9630.
wms.lroc.asu.edu...

Here's a thread about it.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well how about that. It appears that I was right when I said I thought it was a depression in my previous post. Maybe I would've been better at geospacial intelligence then I give myself credit. I think we should all take a moment to celebrate my genius.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
a reply to: spirit_horse

Brandenburg is full of it. The Clementine mission was more to test the abilities of terrestrial spy satellites (which is why their image pages were hosted by the US Navy), nothing to do with looking for aliens.

I've done a page on some of the Clementine stuff:

onebigmonkey.com...

and also on that image of 'something' near Iszak crater (last section on this page, which is one of 4 devoted to a Syfy documentary):

onebigmonkey.com...

We have lunar photographs that are public domain from India, China and Japan - all of them match exactly the photographs taken by the LRO and other US missions. They also match up with photographs taken by the USSR and USA 50 years ago. It's quite hard to hide something when a lot of the things people are claiming as artificial up there are visible with a decent telescope.

We do have very high resolution images of the lunar surface, and have had since Apollo (the panoramic camera is comparable to the LRO in many cases). The problem we have looking at images of the moon is that we have no reference points - there are no houses, cars or trees to give a judge of scale. Even when we have photographs picking out items a few feet across it's difficult to tell that.

I'll have to disagree with you on several points. None of the theorized lunar structures are observable from Earth through any telescopes regardless of decency. At least, not at any meaningful resolution. The argument null conspiracy on the grounds that imagery of other nations doesn't conflict with NASA's imagery is fallacious. You'd have to assume those other agencies aren't also involved in the conspiracy, which hasn't been demonstrated. This is the same, tired argument which was repeated for decades to counter the Apollo Hoax argument. The fact of the matter is that other space programs are known to be even more secretive than NASA. The Soviet space agency was a strong example of this, as is the present Chinese space agency. When the PRC landed their lunar rover a few years back, they released fewer images than I could count on the fingers of one hand. Then, there was only silence. I think it's safe to say that we can't expect foreign space agencies to be any more forthcoming than NASA.

The assertion that the public has been provided "very high resolution images" is misleading. The majority of the imagery submitted for public review were of a resolution magnitudes lower than the few high resolution images NASA released. Besides which, the LRO's camera is described as having "a maximum resolution of 50 cm/pixel (20 in/pixel)." It's even producing "a 3-D map of the Moon's surface," which the public has yet to see a hint of to my knowledge. Yet what we've primarily received so far is described as "map with a resolution of 100 m/pixel (330 ft/pixel)." The LRO is capable of resolutions of 20in/pixel and we're getting 330ft/pixel. Meanwhile one of the few handpicked higher resolution images looks remarkably different from the vast bulk which they've released. NASA isn't showing us but a minuscule amount of the imagery they're acquiring, and we're being fed the lower resolution imagery for the most part. They're feeding us GIF at 56k dialup while they surf the moon at 20mbps with PNG-24.

We do have reference points. USNRL has provided us with lunar imagery containing scales. It's also not entirely difficult to simply infer that a map composed primarily of blurry craters is less than "very high resolution" anyway.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
a reply to: spirit_horse

Brandenburg is full of it. The Clementine mission was more to test the abilities of terrestrial spy satellites (which is why their image pages were hosted by the US Navy), nothing to do with looking for aliens.

I've done a page on some of the Clementine stuff:

onebigmonkey.com...

and also on that image of 'something' near Iszak crater (last section on this page, which is one of 4 devoted to a Syfy documentary):

onebigmonkey.com...

We have lunar photographs that are public domain from India, China and Japan - all of them match exactly the photographs taken by the LRO and other US missions. They also match up with photographs taken by the USSR and USA 50 years ago. It's quite hard to hide something when a lot of the things people are claiming as artificial up there are visible with a decent telescope.

We do have very high resolution images of the lunar surface, and have had since Apollo (the panoramic camera is comparable to the LRO in many cases). The problem we have looking at images of the moon is that we have no reference points - there are no houses, cars or trees to give a judge of scale. Even when we have photographs picking out items a few feet across it's difficult to tell that.

Well, I was going to bed, now it is 6:45AM lol! You did a lot of work there on your site friend. It is amazing what get put out on cable these days. I guess you can just toss that source out the window or just use it as entertainment. But, seriously you put some major time into finding all those images and deciphering them. Kudos for the research! It is one thing I hate doing these days is spending the amount of time required to do work like that. Especially now that all these graphics programs and everyone in the world is making stuff up. And spending a lot of time doing it. Who the hell went to JSC to film that hatch and spend the amount of time to make that video? I even heard the audio in one of those videos supposedly between the CM and Vandenberg AFB. Again, someone spent a hell of a lot of time putting all that together. And you spent a lot of time blowing it out of the water, but now where near what it must have taken to do the video and all the associated stuff.

Why would a guy like Brandenburg say things like that considering his level of responsibility within the Clementine program? That is something I don't get. You seem to be a skeptic with extreme prejudice by comments made about people that believe in some NASA conspiracies or things like that. There is a guy I really don't like James McGaha. I don't care what it is or what evidence is out there to him everything is BS and everyone that believes in aliens or ufo;s are complete morons. You back your stuff up with logical proof and there is enough crap out there that I can see people developing that attitude.

However, I am somewhere in between. I don't think the large amount of high level military and other people responsible for serious security programs in our government for most of their lives just suddenly lost it and decided to ruin all credibility they may have had to tell of inside stories, which some declassified or FOIA documents have backed up some of them are all just off their rocker. The people given these kinds of jobs are not ones that tend to tell lies and wild stories. Especially the ones that made zero money out of doing so, didn't go around making speeches or writing books.

So if you accept some of the things that are more solidly sourced and backed up as being probably true, then there is a very good possibility some of the things we are discussing here in this thread may be true. And I am not saying those things like you have so eloquently debunked fit in that category. But, I have to ask do you have any open mind to aliens, UFO's. or our government being involved in building secret black project space craft or possibly a moon base of some sort underground?

I would think they would be pretty proficient at hiding any activity if they did get involved in those activities as they are at hiding things here on the ground where people and cameras are everywhere. And especially if there is a global organization that has surreptitiously engaged in such activities for some secret reason they might have and as a result other countries would also be complicit in making sure a base wasn't divulged by their programs. It would be hard to hide a small underground base entrance in the dark shadows of a crater. I am not talking about some space base like Area 51 with long runways on the surface of the moon either. Anyway, you did some great work there. I am sold on that. I just am not sold that the government or a global organization hasn't done some things secretly that we would have to be like hitting the lottery to uncover real evidence.

I have mentioned I worked on a special intelligence task force on here before. Most of what I was involved in is classified for at least another 20 years and I would still be concerned the government would make moves to ensure that never comes out. I was involved in things that have been reported on, not believed by the majority of people and it has gone away. And I know it was true and much worse than anything that may have been leaked on a certain operation because I was there working deep cover involved to my eyeballs. Perhaps that is one major reason I made it to ATS to begin with and why I am not so quick to dismiss whistle blowers and certain things because I have seen the skeptics in action, the psyops and disinfo campaigns for damage control and seen reporters or whistle blowers destroyed and it was all true and usually just scratching the surface. And I will tell you straight up I did not work on anything to do with aliens, ufo's, military issues for the most part. I did get pulled into DIA operations because of the course of my work unexpectedly had to bring them in and I had to work with them to finish the issue. But, I am not talking about things we are talking about here or dealing with X-Files type cases. It was real world in country and international issues. I am saying that to say I have no inside information concerning these subjects and don't want anyone thinking that for some reason.

a reply to: Navarro

Yes, I read about the natural uranium reactors. Pretty interesting stuff. Between Phage and OneBigMonkeyToo's site that ship photo was thoroughly explained and story debunked. BigMonkey's site has a lot of other stuff I ended up reading that were credible. However, that doesn't negate much of what we are discussing and I agree that there is enough reason to question everything when your running classified programs within programs and then trying to play it out like it was all wide open and legit and we know everything. i for one am not buying it. I have seen too many things in my days and heard too many things from family that I know our government is neck deep in dirty tricks and hides all kinds of stuff people would flip out over if they knew. It is funny to watch the political craziness and what some citizens believe and politicians, which I have come to call lyingticians, tell the people. If they knew what their government was up to there would be a revolution post haste. Most of their problems are directly caused by their governments involvement in nasty business. Just tell them anything and the majority of the people follow along lockstep believing everything they say. Ridiculous. I think most people that have been involved in the right things are happy to just get out alive and find a quiet place to live out their life in a nice place that fits their leisure desires. Just leave me alone and I will go to my grave quietly when it is time.

The thing is I think all the technology and population is making things much harder to keep a lid on. Things are splitting at the seams and their in full damage control. Probably why we have the police state being rolled out on us. They know it is only a matter of one major event that reveals the wrong stuff and the people will lose it. They intend on shutting that down through fear and outright totalitarianism if it has to be that way. That is another thread though. But, it crosses over here in that with the advent of digital cameras everywhere the government is not being able to hide or cover up all the things they used to. Police shootings for one. Black military aircraft caught on telephoto or night vision cameras. And their handle on computer security has been a joke with all the stuff they have lost over the years. When are they going to lose the family jewels like things we are talking about. All this data is not so easy to keep a lid on as paper files once were. I have a degree in Computer Science, so I know they use honey pots, have classified private networks, etc. But, that still is vulnerable from inside. Look at what Snowden did.

They are not happy campers and people are a problem when it comes to security. We know most of what we know from high level military and black project whistle-blowers. Obama has been prosecuting whistle-blowers harder that any administration. They are trying to stop that threat. However, I think one day some old guy about to die is going to turn over a digital gold bar that is going to do serious damage to any secrecy they have in this area. Until then we watch, we pick up the scraps, we see the obvious black holes and hypocrisy like the clandestine review programs reviewing all that data.

I remember a NASA employee talking about working on the rover program and she said one day there comes walking two guys in like light type space suits toward one of the rovers. She ran upstairs and they had locked the control room down and put paper over the window on the door. They had a feed in another office which they were watching so everyone didn't have to be in the control room. Their feed was then cut. Now why would you want to lose that cushy NASA job to come out and say something like that? Haven't heard from her since. Not saying I believe her, but it is just another chip to throw on the pile while I watch. If this is true there were quite a few witnesses. I am sure they were thoroughly handled though. But, one day they may not be so lucky to contain an event if it was true. I am spent. I have slept like 6 hours in the lat 3 or 4 days. Bad insomnia from pain and I get into stuff like this. I will check back and bring some more information to the thread later this evening or tomorrow. Just depends on if I can see straight lol!

a reply to: spirit_horse
I agree with nearly everything you've said. We exist in a world entirely saturated by lies perpetrated by an all-encompassing machine driven by a superior intelligence to the deceived. Most seem entirely distracted by their petty, ultimately meaningless lives and are supremely lacking in critical thinking skills or the ability to reason meaningfully. Americans are fully aware that they may spend years of their life in a cage as punishment for smoking a plant, and that more than an quarter of their income is compelled from them by force. Yet they don't understand even this, and the matter is by no means concealed nor complicated. They think that their nations greatest problems lie in a few corrupt politicians and factors resultant of the color of their neighbors skin. A minority perceive a few ideological considerations. Is it unethical to slaughter unborn human babies in the womb and should abortion be legal? Is it reasonable to spend two trillion dollars in Iraq primarily to the end of subjugation through slaughter of all men, women and children who oppose us there?

They haven't noticed the myriad politicians who openly discuss the "New World Order" nor would they likely come to understand the implication. They don't notice the pattern of recent warfare, and through pursuit of that pattern come to understand the ramifications. They don't even understand that America has been a monster throughout history, from genocide to concentration camps to nuclear terrorism. They've heard of "Manifest Destiny" and the "Indian Wars" but they're completely oblivious of the fact that we killed 90% of the native population to achieve that "destiny."

Colonel Custer was best known for his strategy of scouting Indian villages, then attacking them once the Indian Warriors left for hunting and patrols. He'd lead a "valiant" charge into the village, slaughter the women and children present there, then burn it down. Custer became a national hero for these actions. We even feigned compassion at one time, offering the now starving and homeless natives much needed blankets, purposely infected with Small Pox. We rounded up the survivors in concentration camps called "reservations," and massacred those who were still unwilling to submit. We even murdered Sitting Bull after he finally surrendered the remainder of his tribe, seemingly because he remained passively resistant within the reservation, leading to issues of compliance among his former tribesmen, adding to the headache which had already spent years causing through his struggle for freedom and prosperity.

Even while fighting the Nazis, America operated concentration camps of its own, imprisoning Japanese-American citizens on the basis that their heritage was wrong and these citizens weren't to be trusted as such. America's less than benevolent history screams warnings of deception, danger and horror. The facts of our current circumstances mirror that shout in ever way. Despite this, few would agree that America's problems stretch beyond the result of a few corrupt politicians, as I've said. Few would agree with the facts, supported by evidence, that we're being continuously poisoned: our water, our air, our soil, our minds. The vast majority are even entirely unaware of the matter, because they're entirely oblivious of the reality of the world which they live in general.

You say "if they knew what their government was up to there would be a revolution post haste." I find the issue to be not of knowledge, but of comprehension. If they were sufficiently intelligent to be motivated to study the massive and freely available data in order to determine "what their government was up to," then could also comprehend it and plot inferences from it, then there would certainly be a "revolution" in a meaningful sense of the word. Where we currently stand however, is among a people who've not even recognized the glaring, fundamental flaw at the foundation of our nation, where 535 men are placed in a room and told to write laws for 240 years. The clear, inevitable result is oppression and totalitarianism. Yet even that simple line of reasoning is beyond the vast majority. It would even mean nothing to them if they were to learn that the United States has now produced so many laws that the Library of Congress and FBI have both reported that they've lost count.

"The Internal Revenue Code alone ... contains more than 3.4 million words and ... is more than 7,500 pages long. There are about 20,000 laws just governing the use and ownership of guns. From the start of 2000 through 2007, Congress had created at least 452 new crimes ... at that time the total number of Federal crimes exceeded 4,450. ... In a typical year, Congress passes at least 125 new laws."
Kowal

I'm not very sympathetic toward the majority of our species. My humanist inclinations lay buried long in my past, and I'd sooner describe myself as a misanthrope. I'm not necessarily troubled that knowledge has been withheld from humanity. If humanity as whole or in majority desired the truth, it would have it within the day. I am however distressed that knowledge of these matters have been withheld from me and those others who strongly desire it and have the potential for comprehending it. The greatest ethical issue with reference to space, in my opinion, is that they place unquestioning minds in the position of knowing, rather than those who're naturally driven to know. I wouldn't be typing to you now if it wasn't for that fact. Furthermore, I believe this to be the greatest flaw on their strategy based on what I've observed and reasoned. Their ultimate undoing will be the people who've spent their lives in pursuit of the information which they obstruct. Disclosure will destroy them, and it will come as a result of a recruitment policy favoring the unquestioning. With curiosity and calling satisfied, there would certainly be more than at present who'd agree with your philosophy of "just leave me alone and I will go to my grave quietly when it is time." Otherwise, I'm confident that the combination of oppression and information suppression will be their downfall.

It seems evident to me that the world of conspiracy is representative of the world of reality, and this world isn't a series of puzzles, but one very large puzzle. It's incontrovertible in my mind that everything discussed here and all matters discussed elsewhere among the threads of ATS relates to the subject of a lunar outpost. As I've said before, I believe the history of such an outpost would be far more complex than we presently imagine it to be. I believe that to completely understand the suspect of a lunar outpost would be to understand everything. The keys to the outpost are in fact the keys to the universe.

originally posted by: Navarro
a reply to: spirit_horse

I've seen the crashed ship imagery before, but I'm not personally convinced that's what it is. It looks to me far more like a depression such as a canyon where the edges are obscured by shadow and the center is better lit. That's my impression in any case, and I think this enlarged and enhanced image I've created suggests this:

I think I would've been terrible at geospacial intelligence though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm often not even sure if I'm looking at a crater or a hill.

If you use the more hi-res image that Phage linked on the previous page rather than using the relatively low-res Image you are using, you would be able to see it more clearly.

Here is that LROC link again for that higher-resolution image:
wms.lroc.asu.edu...

Clicking on the link takes you to this "zoomable" image (a snapshot of the image is below, with an arrow added by me):


If you then (using the zoomable image in the LROC link) zoom into the part of the image I marked with an arrow, which is the same part of the moon that allegedly shows a ship, then you will see this:

It's even more fun to use Japan's 3DGIS application from their Kaguya probe, which allows you to spin around and view features from different angles.

wms.selene.darts.isas.jaxa.jp...

Click on the green button on the right, next to where it says 'Fly me to the moon' to launch it.

Anyone who doesn't like NASA's version of lunar mapping can also use the Japanese, Chinese and Indian images to verify that there are no alien structures or bases anywhere.

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

That is awesome OneBigMonkeyToo! Thank you!

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Anyone who doesn't like NASA's version of lunar mapping can also use the Japanese, Chinese and Indian images to verify that there are no alien structures or bases anywhere.

As we've already discussed, you can't conclude that there is no outpost based on the imagery presented by other space agencies. You'd have to first establish these foreign agencies aren't also involved in the conspiracy, which you have not. I even discussed in detail the secrecy-driven nature of those agencies, among other factors. Besides, the imagery presented by all agencies combined still doesn't provide complete coverage of the lunar surface at sufficiently high resolution to conclude no structures or bases exist. It's possible the specific imagery containing these things are even omitted.

As you ignored my response to you and all points contained within then went on to post an argument which contradicts the established facts, I can only conclude that you either didn't read my reply, or you're not interested in the truth in any way, but instead only desire to propagate your erroneous version of reality, which doesn't stand up to the facts. Believe what you desire to have "faith" in, and convey "the good word" of your position if you like, but your argument is fallacious. There may be no lunar outpost, but not for the reasons you state.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the theorized lunar outpost which differ from what's already been discussed? Anything about motivation, function, activity or any other elements? Any thoughts you find unconventional? I'd like to hear what others suspect might be involved with such an outpost, or any evidence for or against it.

What do you suppose normal operations there might involve, for instance? What might life be like on a lunar outpost? If it's a long established outpost involving long-term or lifetime assignments, how might culture have evolved differently there? American culture became very distant from the British culture in which it's an offshoot. Imagine what a culture based on such a dramatically different and alien environment might involve. Might such an outpost have even become a "breakaway civilization" independent from Earthly control much as America gained independence from England? What sort of things do you suppose they might be dealing with there? What might they do differently? How might they think differently? If it's better described as a colony than an outpost, what might society look like there? What do you think would stand out the most if you were to take a trip there today?

a reply to: Navarro

And you can't conclude that there is one based on the absence of such an image. Your claim that all the imagery combined isn't of adequate resolution to conclude the absence of structures also doesn't allow you to conclude that there are. It's also incorrect.

You can dismiss my argument all you like, but I can support my beliefs with evidence. It's not my problem if you don;t like the evidence nor is it my problem if you think you can just dismiss it by assuming a conspiracy. You have no evidence of a conspiracy, just an assumption that there is one. My arguments do not contradict established fact, they are in support of established fact: there are no alien structures on the moon.

There are too many frauds out there screaming that there is some sort of alien artifact in a NASA image but conveniently ignore the photographs taken by other countries at the same resolution of the same area. You don't get to pick and choose which evidence to use.

Oh, and if I didn't instantly engage with every point you made, it's because I don't have to. I wasn't trying to involve you in a discussion, I was posting my opinion. You aren't in charge of the debate.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Couple of points here:

Firstly, thanks for the compliment - it's nice to know people actually read my stuff lol.

Secondly, why would someone like Brandenburg (amongst others) make his claims? Because you can make money out of books, DVDs, TV and personal appearances at UFO conferences. There is almost always a huge difference between the amount of involvement claimed in these projects and the reality, and they rely on a 'no comment' policy of the agencies involved to get away with it

Thirdly - prejudiced? Yes I am. I take great offence at people assuming I am stupid enough to fall for things that are so obviously not true, at claiming expertise where there is none. I find it offensive that there are people out there sucking money out of the gullible by telling lies.

Nobody will be happier than me when ET turns up, I'm just not buying it from the people who claim they already have.

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Hmm, well what about these.
www.ufosightingsdaily.com...




Personally I think it as a former earth based civilization, who destroyed it, how did it vanish, WHY is the universe so silent and no extre terrestrial signals - attenuation only weakens signals we would have detected something by now so who is silencing it.

not embedding, these are on my ATS account feel free to browse, I have added some colour and outlined some but you can readly track down the originals they are otherwise not altered at all.
files.abovetopsecret.com...
files.abovetopsecret.com...
files.abovetopsecret.com...
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RIGHT HEADS UP FOLK's, Unless it is a servor error about 2/3rds of the images I uploaded have been deleted and return bad gateway with there thumbnail whited out, maybe some were too good as they are the ones that have vanished?.

NOW I AM ANGRY.
Maybe time I moved.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
a reply to: Navarro

And you can't conclude that there is one based on the absence of such an image. Your claim that all the imagery combined isn't of adequate resolution to conclude the absence of structures also doesn't allow you to conclude that there are. It's also incorrect.

You can dismiss my argument all you like, but I can support my beliefs with evidence. It's not my problem if you don;t like the evidence nor is it my problem if you think you can just dismiss it by assuming a conspiracy. You have no evidence of a conspiracy, just an assumption that there is one. My arguments do not contradict established fact, they are in support of established fact: there are no alien structures on the moon.

There are too many frauds out there screaming that there is some sort of alien artifact in a NASA image but conveniently ignore the photographs taken by other countries at the same resolution of the same area. You don't get to pick and choose which evidence to use.

Oh, and if I didn't instantly engage with every point you made, it's because I don't have to. I wasn't trying to involve you in a discussion, I was posting my opinion. You aren't in charge of the debate.

You're not debating, your obfuscating, including in the reply which I'm quoting. I never said that a lunar outpost exists. I stated my suspicion that it may, and supported that opinion with strong evidence by reasoning and with related facts. You however stated, as a fact, that no lunar outpost exists, lacking any conclusive evidence to support your position. I'm in pursuit of knowledge and understanding through exploration of the idea, where you're objective is clearly to shut down the discussion. You've already decided that there's no lunar base. In your mind that's incontrovertible, despite there being insufficient evidence to arrive at such a conclusion. You didn't fail to take into account the information I presented earlier "because I don't have to," you chose not to because it didn't support your position, and your position is all that matters, not the truth, not discussion, not discovery. Otherwise you wouldn't have repeated an argument which I already demonstrated was fallacious.

But you do you though.

This discussion was very entertaining up until photographs were brought in to the mix.

Low resolution images of anything might as well be random pixels for what they are worth. Early on, Phage proved that point in a perfect example of why zoomed in images of a low resolution sources are just magnified garbage.

There are no high resolution images of the moon that show anything that would resemble an artificial structure, so please, lets just leave pics out of the thread.

I thought the OP did a great job in the speculation end, where the resolution can be as fuzzy as you are personally willing to allow!

a reply to: LABTECH767
SGT Karl Wolf (second video) impressed me too. When I hear witness statements as these, I'm usually still more than skeptical by the end. Wolf's testimony is one of the few I thought probable. Wolf's testimony reminds me of another which seemed credible to me as well:

Your third video is interesting too. One day I'll have to investigate the credibility of such things. Anyhow, an advanced civilization from earth's prehistoric past is a distinct possibility. I've spent considerable time searching for evidence of such a civilization, but I've found little more than mythology and rumors. Some of that mythology is very interesting though, such as the Hopi tales about Ant People. The Hopi describe the "first world" as being destroyed by fire. The "second world" was destroyed by ice," which I imagine is suggestive of an ice age. The last of which was about 22,000 years ago. On both occasions, their people were guided by a cloud in the daytime and a moving star in the nighttime. They arrived at a "skygod," who then brought them to the Ant People, or "Anu Sinom." The Ant People relocated the Hopi's to an underground dwelling, and provided the Hopi with sustenance, supplies and knowledge which improved their survivability.

Some of the Greek legends involving Hercules spoke of a flying ship, in which its "sailors" were occasionally known to come down to the surface, though I don't immediately recall the details. I'm certain that you recall the stories from ancient India which describe flying cities warring with one another in the sky, and what some feel describe advanced technology, and nuclear warfare. Certain Egyptian hieroglyphs are also suggestive of modern technology. I could go on, but I'm sure you're already familiar with these things.

While I've encountered no physical evidence of a conclusive nature, I can't discount the possibility. Even if none of these myths actually represent an advanced culture, and even if none are true in any sense, it's possible that an advanced civilization existed in earth's past. It's even possible that extraterrestrials created and populated such a civilization for a variety of potential reasons. It may have even been created and populated by humans from the future, assuming time travel is a possibility. Extradimensional beings of course also can't be ruled out.

Relics from such a civilization may exist today on the Earth and/or the moon, or the civilization may actively exist even today. I imagine that regardless of the origin of such a civilization, or the species of its inhabitants, the culture would be very strange to us, and their motivations difficult to understand. If an civilization exists beyond our own, it's regrettable that they're not inclined to introduce themselves to the public. I wonder why that might be. What might you speculate those reasons to be?