Does my boiler defy the laws of physics?

I would think that nonspecific would be familiar with the normal operation of the water system in the residence that when it went bad, it was noticed. No amount of math, formulas or testing is needed for nonspecific to know that the system has failed. The facts are that it worked before and is behaving differently now, the house is in the same location and the plumbing has not had any maintenance performed on it.

So, either there is a mechanical failure or nonspecific has not told us about their first/last experience with the Ouija board.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: Dweebsquad
Well according to the first Law of Thermodynamics, the change in heat minus the change in l work should equal the change internal energy, pipe insulation or something could be the cause, or you might live on top of a mountian, oh well it certianly isn't breaking any laws

So how does the maths work out then.

Temp at point A is 64 degrees Celsius. temp at point B is 41.8 degrees Celsius. lenght of pipe is just under 6 feet and made of copper (.7mm) temperature of room was 12 degrees Celsius.

It depends on how long you let the water run from point A to point B, which you don't seem to have mentioned. That drop doesn't sound unusual if you're not letting the water run, it takes a while for all the cold water to be displaced and even longer for the copper pipe to heat up. The temp at point B should start out cooler like that and gradually increase the longer you let the water run until it's nearly the same as at point A, maybe slightly less.

a reply to: dogstar23

Why. Why must you divide us. Dogstar23! Tear down that wall!

I am a plumber. It's most likely the mixing valve. How would he not know to change that? Unless you mean water heater, and not boiler. Then it's the dip tube on the water heater.

originally posted by: 5ofineed5aladder
I am a plumber. It's most likely the mixing valve. How would he not know to change that? Unless you mean water heater, and not boiler. Then it's the dip tube on the water heater.

I have a fairly decent plumbing background so not an idiot with this kind of thing. There are 4 seperate mixing valves all with the same issue and the water is leaving the boiler at the correct temperature.

What I fail to understand is that the temperature drop seems too great given the various distances from the boiler and the tap given the ambient temperature of the location of the system.

2 heating engineers and 3 and a half plumbers agree it should not be.

Going to look into it more on Saturday.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: 5ofineed5aladder
I am a plumber. It's most likely the mixing valve. How would he not know to change that? Unless you mean water heater, and not boiler. Then it's the dip tube on the water heater.

I have a fairly decent plumbing background so not an idiot with this kind of thing. There are 4 seperate mixing valves all with the same issue and the water is leaving the boiler at the correct temperature.

What I fail to understand is that the temperature drop seems too great given the various distances from the boiler and the tap given the ambient temperature of the location of the system.

2 heating engineers and 3 and a half plumbers agree it should not be.

Going to look into it more on Saturday.

Only 1 valve needs to be messed up. If the cold water's pressure through the valve and into the hot line is even slightly more than the hot water pressure then the cold can push through the hot line and there will be little flow from the hot tank. That is why when you diagnose this kind of problem, you can usually hear the water siphoning through the faulty mixing valve when you open a hot tap elsewhere. I realize that the Hot water system and the Cold water system are fed from the same supply line and so you would expect the pressure to be the same throughout the system but pressure loss at the hot water tank vs a straight through feed on the cold can make enough of a difference especially if there is a point where the piping is reduced in size from 3/4 to 1/2" which commonly happens just after the water tank output as the various runs branch out.
Keep us posted and I'll check back to see if your team locates the problem.

a reply to: seeker1963

I'd lean towards that if he has one of those one lever type faucets,maybe a seal or o ring between them leaking.Hard to believe that with no leaks or drips tho.

originally posted by: blkcwbyhat
a reply to: seeker1963

I'd lean towards that if he has one of those one lever type faucets,maybe a seal or o ring between them leaking.Hard to believe that with no leaks or drips tho.

The leak would be between the hot and cold sides not from inside the pipe/valve assembly to the faucet area. That is secured by a separate O-ring /seal and what happens is the cold water seeps into the hot line until the pressure between both sides has equalized. Once you open a faucet somewhere, the pressure has a place to bleed off and the race begins, if the hot side has more pressure and flow, it will bleed into the cold giving you warm water where cold should be. In this case, the cold water seems to be pushing itself through the hot side. At least that is how I see it.

It is possible that a plumber mixed up a hot and cold pipe in the wall

a reply to: nonspecific

The heating engineer used an flue gas analyser on the test point of the flue. This gives a reading of the temperature of the exhaust gases among other things. It gives no indication of the temp of the water passing through the heat exchanger.

And for our american friends. A plumber is an insulting name for a gas engineer/heating engineer!

a reply to: dogstar23

Number 3, there is cold water mixing in before the sink tap.

Number 4 is a variation on number 3: If you have a mixer tap it is likely set to restrict the temperature of the output. There are, now-a-days, code specs that restrict the actual temperature coming out of a tap. Mixer taps are especially easy to engineer in anti-scalding limits.

a reply to: nonspecific

Perfect video for your new youtube channel, I would watch you tear apart your house to find the issue, especially if it really is a portal to an ice dimension

a reply to: KingDoey

And for our american friends. A plumber is an insulting name for a gas engineer/heating engineer!

Well, in Australia, the term "plumber" is used for anything water pipe related, gas pipe related, drainage related, etc.

'Roofers' are plumbers. Oil platform riggers are plumbers. Roof gutterererers are plumbers. Solar hot water installers are plumbers, etc, etc, etc.

Domestic Aircon installers are sparkies though, unless it is a gas fired Aircon, then its a plumber.

The guys who calculate and lay out domestic Aircon installations are called 'salesmen'.

It lost heat, as physics would say it would. WAI.

I know what's wrong, my boiler does the same (and a boiler in my old flat did it)
The pressure needs to be increased, mine is meant to run at 2Bar but tends to drop over a couple of months, if it drops under 1Bar I only get warm water but still get hot central heating, the digi display on the boiler still says its running normal temp for both water and heating
There should be a pressure gauge somewhere near or on your boiler with a system refill tap.

hope that helps, I didn't read the whole thread to see if you solved it

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: nonspecific


Ya'll call them "Heating engineers" across the pond?


We call them plumbers! Anyhow, if he was there and you paid him, make him come back and really fix it!

Plumbers are for water over here, we have separate guys who handle the boilers as they are mainly gas and you need lots of special certificates and different insurance ect. his job was done when the boiler checked out as good.

The guy will - or definitely should be a Corgi qualified plumber, although it seems Corgi has been replaced by Gas Safe. So yes, if he's looking at a gas central heating system in the UK (assuming that's where you are) he is a qualified plumber for gas systems whatever the job title given to him by the company he works for.

a reply to: uncommitted

Should always check the paperwork as being gassafe registered doesn't cover you for everything as theres various things like working on gas fires and boilers along with the pipework so you do need to have a look at their badge to make sure they know what the hell they're messing with

a reply to: uncommitted

Should always check the paperwork as being gassafe registered doesn't cover you for everything as theres various things like working on gas fires and boilers along with the pipework so you do need to have a look at their badge to make sure they know what the hell they're messing with

a reply to: rnaa
The root word of plumber is plumbum, which is the Greek for lead.
Since pipes (used to be) made of lead, those who worked pipes were called plumbers.

ta daa.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

This actually came to mind after reading the verifications of the temperatures, etc. Since the Heating Engineer isn't a Plumber, maybe he's not familiar enough to detect an odd piping setup. What kind of faucet is it? Separate handles/valves for hot and cold, or one of those where you aim it one way for full hot, the other way for full cold, and in the middle for warm? It's it's one of those, the inner workings of the valve could be off-kilter.

A lot of heating engineers are also plumbers just with gas safe qualifications and therefore more expensive.

The tap is a mixer tap but there is a similar problem on the upstairs as well so seems unkilely that 3 mixer taps(all about 2 years old and good quality would go at the same time.

No it's not if your hot water was high enough two years is about right for the washers to start to fail allowing water to escape the ball inside the faucet. If you check the seals and they are OK next step I would suggest is look how the pipe is run. Is the got and cold water pipe touching if so you will have significant heat loss or and warmer tap water. I had an old house where I'm guessing the previusly owner did his own plumbing. He had the hot water and cold water connected in several places and I had a similar problem until I had the water lines rerouted. Also had tankless water heater put in to new house they have gotten extremely cheap now and save a lot on eke tric bills. You could install one under the sink for a couple of hundred dollars. I will always use these now always have hot water and same temperature. No more cold showers as the tank cools down.