Does my boiler defy the laws of physics?

I am certainly not a scientist but something does not seem right and am asking for anyone who understands this kind of thing how this is happening.

I have a problem with the hot water supply in my house and had a heating engineer come out today to fix the problem. The temperature that the boiler claimed was coming out of the boiler did not match the temperature a thermometer read at the water coming out of the tap. there is nothing wrong with the boiler and the temperature of water coming out of the heat exchange is correct.

The sink is next to the boiler and there is less than 6 feet of 15mm copper pipe linking the boiler and the tap. the room was 12 degrees Celsius yet the water temperature was dropping by 22 degrees celsius over the 6 feet of pipe.

The heating engineer said he had never seen such a loss of temperature over such a short distance and it does not seem possible.

For reference it also looses 32 degrees to the shower upstairs although the distance is obviously greater.

The pipe is unlagged.

a reply to: nonspecific
Or the boiler temperature gauge is faulty?
If the water was gaining heat on the way to the tap, you might have a case.

a reply to: nonspecific


Ya'll call them "Heating engineers" across the pond?


We call them plumbers! Anyhow, if he was there and you paid him, make him come back and really fix it!

Reminds me when I got out of the military and could only find a job pumping gas, when anyone asked me what I did for a living, I told them I was a "petroleum engineer"!

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: nonspecific
Or the boiler temperature gauge is faulty?
If the water was gaining heat on the way to the tap, you might have a case.

The boiler gauge is not faulty, the heating engineer used a little gismo with a printer to test the temperature coming out of the boiler and a digital probe and they both matched the readout on the boiler. He then used 2 different probes to measure the water coming out of the tap and they both gave the samme 22degree drop, said the boiler was fine(this is a second opinion bty wand the boiler is less than a year old, central heating working fine) and wished my luck with a puzzled look on his face.

I agree that if it was hotter it would be more interesting.

I just assumed that some bod here could show me in some kind of formula what I cannot seem to accept as natural, it's only started happening over the past month or so.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: nonspecific


Ya'll call them "Heating engineers" across the pond?


We call them plumbers! Anyhow, if he was there and you paid him, make him come back and really fix it!

Plumbers are for water over here, we have separate guys who handle the boilers as they are mainly gas and you need lots of special certificates and different insurance ect. his job was done when the boiler checked out as good.

a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

a reply to: nonspecific


Wow! Most of our plumbers pretty much take care of anything that has to do with water in the home and the equipment that takes care of it. Water pumps, water heaters, pipes etc etc...


We call them water heaters, some are electric and some our gas.....

Scientifically the spirits of the house don't want you to bathe with hot water, appease them with a goat sacrifice.

Don't know man, I don't trust those boiler guys, they never fix the stuff over here the first 5 times they come.

Best of luck.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

a reply to: nonspecific

Ok, this IS ATS, so......maybe you had an entity take up residence in your house.

They are known to drastically lower temperatures in surrounding areas when present.

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

This actually came to mind after reading the verifications of the temperatures, etc. Since the Heating Engineer isn't a Plumber, maybe he's not familiar enough to detect an odd piping setup. What kind of faucet is it? Separate handles/valves for hot and cold, or one of those where you aim it one way for full hot, the other way for full cold, and in the middle for warm? It's it's one of those, the inner workings of the valve could be off-kilter.

originally posted by: Indigent
Scientifically the spirits of the house don't want you to bathe with hot water, appease them with a goat sacrifice.

Don't know man, I don't trust those boiler guys, they never fix the stuff over here the first 5 times they come.

Best of luck.

Today's guy was a gas safe registered engineer and good friend of my landlord so would not scutch the job as it were.

originally posted by: dogstar23

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

This actually came to mind after reading the verifications of the temperatures, etc. Since the Heating Engineer isn't a Plumber, maybe he's not familiar enough to detect an odd piping setup. What kind of faucet is it? Separate handles/valves for hot and cold, or one of those where you aim it one way for full hot, the other way for full cold, and in the middle for warm? It's it's one of those, the inner workings of the valve could be off-kilter.

A lot of heating engineers are also plumbers just with gas safe qualifications and therefore more expensive.

The tap is a mixer tap but there is a similar problem on the upstairs as well so seems unkilely that 3 mixer taps(all about 2 years old and good quality would go at the same time.

Well according to the first Law of Thermodynamics, the change in heat minus the change in l work should equal the change internal energy, pipe insulation or something could be the cause, or you might live on top of a mountian, oh well it certianly isn't breaking any laws

What kind of tap are you measuring the water from? Is it a standard single Hot and single Cold tap at a sink or is it one of the fancy taps, single handle push left/right for hot & cold and up/down for flow volume?

If it is one of the fancy one, I could venture a guess that the mixing ball (valve) or a seal has failed and cold is leaking in to the hot.

To verify, turn off the Cold Shutoff Valve if you have one under the sink where the pipe exits the wall. Turn on your hot and test temperature after running it for 30-40 seconds.

Do you have other taps that output the correct temperature?
Other than that, I am stumped.

ETA: I see DogStar has asked the same.

a reply to: nonspecific

go out and buy your own thermometer...use an infrared thermometer and follow the pipe...they are cheap enough today...under 20 bucks at walmart..

originally posted by: Dweebsquad
Well according to the first Law of Thermodynamics, the change in heat minus the change in l work should equal the change internal energy, pipe insulation or something could be the cause, or you might live on top of a mountian, oh well it certianly isn't breaking any laws

So how does the maths work out then.

Temp at point A is 64 degrees Celsius. temp at point B is 41.8 degrees Celsius. lenght of pipe is just under 6 feet and made of copper (.7mm) temperature of room was 12 degrees Celsius.

originally posted by: chrismarco
a reply to: nonspecific

go out and buy your own thermometer...use an infrared thermometer and follow the pipe...they are cheap enough today...

I already did use my own probe and got similar results.

a reply to: nonspecific

the infrared beam can follow the pipe and you can see where it drops off..if you have a faucet that is a single lever maybe the faucet needs a new o-ring..