The young Fidel Castro was full of ideals, his family was wealthy and he had lots of time to think and read. He read all the great leftist writers, Karl Marx, Fredrich Engels, Antonio Labriola, William Morris and a host of others.

He learn early the road to true power was the vast uneducated classes-----charge them up and they will put you in power.

He told the Cuban people that Capitalism was the root of all evil-----and they the people had the power to topple the Capitalist and take over the country-----and he would be willing to lead them-----in return he would be their King----he meant presidente.

He told them the workers would own the companies and reap the profits for all their labor.

What happened? They did what he said----ran off those Capitalist pigs, made their fearless leader Fidel their king----took over the means of production (stole all the private property in Cuba).

Fidel forgot to tell them that creating wealth was hard work----and when five people sit around doing nothing while only one works not much of anything happens.

Under Socialism and communism everyone gets paid the same no matter what they do----so why break a sweat-----no one did.

The result is poverty and more poverty.

Cuba lasted a long time because the USSR sent them a welfare check every month-----the USSR is gone----no welfare for the last decade.

Things will not change until the leftist Cuban King is gone-----will the Cubans wise up then?

If you think Castro got into power just because of a spot of rabble-rousing then you are seriously mistaken Sleeper.

How about when he was the US's favourite son?

By the way he did not claim 'capitalism' was the root of the Cuiban people's problems at the start.
He pointed to the undeniable gross corruption and the crass exploitation of the Cuban people happening with the connivance of Cuba's then Batista government.

Why do you ignore such a significant part of the story and emphasise such simplistic nonsense in stead?

Castro may well be a dictator with plenty of crimes to his name but hardly one of the worlds worst.....and certainly no worse than many the USA has been happy to back for decades.
It's pretty ironic considering they backed him at the start once too.

.....and for all the flaws and faults in present day Cuban society how about their excellent health care system?
It is not all the shambles you want people to believe and compared to some carribean countries it is not that bad at all.

Even on the personal freedom score the 'Partiot Act' and it's mk2 version pretty much even things out there.

Just because Bush & Co., aren't quite using the foundations for a fascist USA at present doesn't mean that the foundations of one are not in place right now.

There are lots of rich Liberals that feel the same way----Cubans don't have it that bad-----try living there as a Cuban and I bet you will build yourself a raft and try to escape in no time at all----like many of the Cubans in the past and present.

It's never so bad when it's others who are affected.

The only people who think America is Fascist are those who would rather America was Socialist or Communist.

Batista was bad-----Castro is ten times worse---talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Castro was a Communist revolutionary----and was backed by the USSR----not America, although America was against the Batista government.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by sleeper]

Originally posted by sleeper

The only people who think America is Fascist are those who would rather America was Socialist or Communist.

This is not true. I believe America is turning into a Fascist State, and I want DEMOCRACY back! Democracy means capitolism with a hint of socialism. Do some research.

[edit on 1/11/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by sleeper
There are lots of rich Liberals that feel the same way----Cubans don't have it that bad-----try living there as a Cuban and I bet you will build yourself a raft and try to escape in no time at all----like many of the Cubans in the past and present.

- No doubt this spurious comparison between my European (and any of the first world countries living standards) would be just the same as I'd find the living standards of quite a few carribean countries, right?
Or do you just want to complain about 'commie' Cuba alone?

It's never so bad when it's others who are affected.

- I never said that. You did. But if you are going to talk about what is meant to be so bad lets take a little more into consideration than you are obviously prepared to do so far, eh?

The only people who think America is Fascist are those who would rather America was Socialist or Communist.

- Again that was not what I said. Where did I call for a socialist or communist USA?

More silly black and white ideas, hmm?
More forced 'only 2 possible options' nonsense sleeper, eh?

I said the foundations have been laid to a fascist USA and that just because Bush and his gang have not fully made use of these building blocks does not make that untrue.

Just prey neither he nor anyone following his Presidnecy make full use of what he has put in place.

Batista was bad-----Castro is ten times worse---talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

- Well ok, you're entitled to your opinion that Batista's corrupt and murderous mafia-state was 10 times better but there are plenty of Cubans who do not agree.

I am not claiming Castro is a saint either but it is undoubtedly true that many Cubans would rather live what they see as their present free and independant lives with excellent universal healthcare for all than the alternative....particularly an alternative anything like that which went before.

Castro was a Communist revolutionary----and was backed by the USSR----not America, although America was against the Batista government.

- The USA originally backed Batista and Castro, with their typical expedient outlook, go look it up.
They fell out with Castro when he declared his to be a communist revolution and he subsequently looked to the then USSR for aid and support.

....and finally what is all this Sleeper? The immigrant's kid who rushes to act more American than the Americans?

We have that here with some of the eastern European immigrant's kids.....many of them did very well in their studies and effectively 'took over' the UK conservative party.....and destroyed it with their ultra attitudes. It turned out that their attitudes merely caricatured British values and attitudes and did not actually represent them at all.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Well you are right; there is one other country worse off than Cuba----Haiti.

American citizenship is all that is required to be American----that I have----and as in many countries new blood is often a plus----because those who have become comfortable don’t always know what they have to lose.

Many immigrants especially in the last fifty years see the huge difference in prosperity and freedom that exist for the common man in America verses from where they came from-----and are determined to preserve it.

America is free and prosperous-----and will be for a long time to come-----despite the wishful thinking from some on the left that it will fall.

Originally posted by sleeper
-----despite the wishful thinking from some on the left that it will fall.

Sleeper, if you keep making ignorant post such as this, I will keep pointing them out. THE LEFT DOES NOT WANT AMERICA TO FALL! WE DONT HATE AMERICA! LIBERALS ALL ACCROSS THE NATION ARE VERY PATRIOTIC AND LOVE THIS COUNTRY JUST AS MUCH AS YOU!

Now please get off of this "Conservatives are the only Americans who love america kick", as it is an ought right lie.

Well, when buttloads of people start leaving the United States in rafts or sneaking out accross the border rather than sneaking in, then you can call it facist and I won't argue. I'll be studying raft-making.

But still, no matter what you say about Cuba, people seem to risk their lives regularly trying to leave, so something must be funky down there.

I know that many Liberals in America are patriotic and love America-----I am talking about the left in other countries-----they would love to see America fall or at the very least weaken.

Are you denying that?

sleeper don't be so limited- it isn't JUST the left in other countries that would like to see America fall.

On Cuba- the oligarchy was the enemy.

.

.

oh god.....more sleeper ramblings....*engages dumbass-filter in brain*

General Zapata?

Are you sure it isn't private zapata?

In all your post and those of some of your comrades, you guys have all the discretion of a drunken camel.

You people have used every cuss word known to man against me without once using logic.

Are those the leadership skills that are thought in leftist training camps to win over the uneducated masses?

General Emiliano Zapata was a revolutionary mexican leader who helped take back the land for the people from the corrupt mexican government during the Mexican Revolution. Of course, obviously being so ignorant about popular left wing movements, I could not expect you to know that.

Originally posted by sleeper
I know that many Liberals in America are patriotic and love America-----I am talking about the left in other countries-----they would love to see America fall or at the very least weaken.

Are you denying that?

First off, you did not make that distinction. Second off, I assumed this, so I apologise. However, it isnt just the 'Left" of other countries around the world who wish America to fall. Is the North Korea Dictatorship "Left"? Was Saddam Husien "Left"? Are ou starting to see my point?

About your original rant about Cuba, I must say that I have heard stories from both sides of the coin from there. I was in the Navy with a guy from cuba that made Arnold Schwartzineager look like the skinny kid on the beach. He always talked about the strict public rules there: like always having to have the top button on your button up shirt buttoned. People would go to jail for not having that done.

Now I go to school with a guy from Cuba. He has a chance to become an American citizen. But he loves Cuba and wants to remain a Cuban who happens to be living in America.

It all depends on who you talk to. Just like here in America.

[edit on 1/12/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by sleeper
In all your post and those of some of your comrades, you guys have all the discretion of a drunken camel.

errr sleeper i would actually be careful of who you accuse of having discretion like a drunken camel. some could say the same of you

and who are these comrades of which you speak?

You people have used every cuss word known to man against me without once using logic

what? i'm struggling not to laugh at this. on numerous occasions, you have been sunk, and your response has been to conveniently be drawn to attack another poster, or to give an answer so vague, it beggars belief. and as for every cuss word known to man, i seriously doubt that.

PS have you ever seen a drunken camel?

Originally posted by General Zapata


General Emiliano Zapata was a revolutionary mexican leader who helped take back the land for the people from the corrupt mexican government during the Mexican Revolution. Of course, obviously being so ignorant about popular left wing movements, I could not expect you to know that.

You mean you are not the real General Zapata?-----silly me.

Kidfinger,

North Korea is Communist, Communist have no vote, own no property-----A Dictator takes away the vote and property rights are suspended indefinitely. North Koreans have to rights----and no private property-----they are Communist.

I know that in a perfect world Communism would be the utopia-----we don’t live in a perfect world-----my humble opinion we never will.

A perfect world requires perfect people-----do you think that will ever happen?

The friend you went to school with from Cuba-----all his family lives there----most people will live in hell rather than leave family members behind----I would.

I miss my relatives in Italy-----it wasn’t my choice to come to America-----now that I am here I can’t imagine living anywhere else----I visit Italy----beautiful country but I wouldn’t give up my American citizenship to live there, plus my immediate family all live in America.

Originally posted by Daystar

PS have you ever seen a drunken camel?

In my opinion all camels are drunk, they have no diplomacy----they spit on everyone.

Unlike myself who is a model of restraint, tack, tolerance and a diplomatic genius----ok, maybe not.

Originally posted by sleeper
Kidfinger,

North Korea is Communist, Communist have no vote, own no property-----A Dictator takes away the vote and property rights are suspended indefinitely. North Koreans have to rights----and no private property-----they are Communist.

Exactly. They are a dictatorship. They are not a "Leftist" government. They dont have a right or a left.

I know that in a perfect world Communism would be the utopia-----we don’t live in a perfect world-----my humble opinion we never will.

A perfect world requires perfect people-----do you think that will ever happen?

No, we are human, there for we are flawed. Logic says this means no perfection for the human species. So, no, there will never be a perfect person/country/world.

The problem I have with this is you keep refering to every country that wants the fall of America, as a leftist government, when in fact, they are not. Iran left? No. Syria left? No. The countries that want the fall of the US are for the most part, countries in the middle east who dont have a left or a right side to thier government. They have Mulla's and other religous figures that make thier decesions for the governments. So if you really want to say these countries are one way or the other, you are more right to compare them to a "Right" side of government thinking since the 'Right" is mostly associated with ruling with the will of the leading religous class. But as I said before, these countries dont have a right or a left, so even a comparison to the right is incorrect.

Yes, there are countries that wish the fall of the US, but you kind of have to have a Democracy established in order to have sides to your government.

The friend you went to school with from Cuba-----all his family lives there----most people will live in hell rather than leave family members behind----I would.

As far as my friend from Cuba goes, most of his faimly lives here. His grand parents are still there, but his mother,father, brothers, and 2 uncles are here in America.