Is it possible to believe in justice and/or fairness without believing in right and wrong?

First, allow me to define what I'm discussing:

justice
Just behaviour or treatment
www.oxforddictionaries.com...

fairness
Impartial and just treatment or behaviour without favouritism or discrimination
www.oxforddictionaries.com...

Obviously, the definitions of the words justice and fairness both rely on the word "just" and that word relies on the word "right":

just
Based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair
www.oxforddictionaries.com...

Logically speaking, it is not possible to believe in justice and/or fairness without believing in right and wrong IMHO. This is a critical issue to me because many people these days want to claim that right and wrong don't exist. Do they realize that if they wipe those things from their worldview, they're wiping out justice and fairness from their worldview as well?

I'm all for freedom of thought but don't complain about how unjust and unfair the current societal structure and system is when you don't believe in right and wrong. You have no basis to complain about those things in my view. My best answer for such a thought process (outside of insanity/extreme lack of intelligence) is that people who want to believe in justice and/or fairness without believing in right and wrong just want their leaders to live up to a higher standard than what they hold themselves to.

Right and wrong seem to be subjective within different societal structures and cultures and even within genders and/or alternative lifestyle choices. That is why the laws of the land need to be updated in step with societal consciousness raising and technological advancement or there is no justice.

a reply to: Profusion

Nice post. I believe that no matter how you were raised or where you might be from..I still think every single person is born with morals. I think everyone knows internally when something is "just" or "right" and when something is just "wrong." Now..trying to think of why some people act as if they have no regard for morals? I have no idea. But I still believe everyone has "good" and "bad" in them and it's just a matter of choosing for yourself the "right" decision.

Great thread idea, this is an important topic! Here are some thoughts I have towards the issue.

Paradigm #1: Justice = Everyone gets access to safe food and clean water, as these are the basics required for life.

Paradigm #2: Justice = Everyone gets a roof over their head, considering shelter from the elements is necessary to survival.

These ideas, stated without emotion, are the epitome of both justice and fairness, for all people on this planet.

Buuut, as soon as you introduce the concepts of "right' and "wrong", people will claim all-sorts of why this isn't possible. Everything from...
-Not my problem
-Pull up your own bootstraps (even where there are none to be had like say 3rd world countries or not enough jobs)
-Earth is overpopulated
-Survival of the fittest
Etc.

All EXCUSES, and used to dismiss discussions, under the guise of right and wrong, so people don't have to give a damn about anyone other than themselves.
Essentially because profit. And greed.

I feel that people use right and wrong as reasons to make circular arguments instead of instituting the very justice and fairness that any thinking and EVOLVED species would have logically progressed to, decades ago.

When one considers the advances and the resources available today, such as 3-D printing and aquaponics or vertical gardening, this is especially a no-brainer. The world is not overpopulated and there is no shortage of food - well there kind of is, but it is intentionally done to keep prices artificially high, profits rolling in and to keep health from the people, control people.

Right and wrong are subjective (or at least have come to be so, in today's vernacular) - however justice and fairness, simply IS.

We are harming so many people with our petty versions of "right" and "wrong".
Whereas justice and fairness harms no one.

Earth could be a veritable garden of eden for everyone, if we weren't working so hard against that concept.

Just because most souls cannot see the unbiased objective right behavior or refuse to not think about it does not mean it does not exists.

Treating you mate as an equal treasured soul and trying to be mutualistic in all behaviors towards your mate is right no matter what religions choose to claim.

Usury is enslaving another soul/souls to gain power and is parasitical no matter if society allow it.

With objective reasoning a behavior can be tracked and see how it affects all the other souls (both the negative and the positive) around them can be calculated.

I will do things I should not do, but I will not go the self deceit route that it is Karma free. I will have to pay the piper in the end. At least with trying to understand objective reasoning I will be able to limit the debt.

a reply to: Profusion
What you seek is Utopia. It can not and will not ever happen as long as there are 10 people in the world(10 is just an arbitary figure) as one persons perception of right or wrong can be radically different to another person. Therefore based on those differences the concepts of fairness or right can be radically different.
Different cultures, different concepts of what is right and what is wrong and in being so they base their justice on their values of their rights and wrongs.
That which you have just posed is whats caused conflicts throughout the ages and will continue to do so.

Every individual will have their own perspective. There is no answer to this. My way :

This is right / wrong .. But not judge it

Justice : is a legal term

And until they prove me guilty ..

Yes...this is an important topic. I especially like the fact that you brought up about people holding leaders and wealthy people to higher standards of behavior than they hold themselves to.

If people were able to critically examine themselves I believe that the vast majority would find that they are violating some of the same principles that they are condemning others for.

Also I would dare say that if true justice were applied to the inhabitants of this planet...none of us would fair well....hence the need for the existence of mercy.

I will give an example of what I mean....true justice would say...if I cause suffering in order to bring myself pleasure or benefit....then I should have to suffer in direct proportion to the suffering I cause and this would apply to.any life form that can experience suffering..namely animals.

Now think about the suffering that is created in the animal kingdom just for us to gratify our appetites and all the animal suffering created by our infrastructure ...the animals brutally killed and maimed by cars and trucks on a daily basis. Please understand that I realize we have to function within the current infrastructure..and I am not trying to create unnecessary feelings of guilt. But the fact remains...that the suffering is real.

And these sufferings are outstanding debts over humanities head...and I dont think most people realize it or care.... I am certain it will be found that we as a whole have accumulated a woeful debt. And unless mercy prevails we have a woeful price to pay. As it stands now the animal kingdom has borne a huge and an unjust burden because of our ignorance and insolence. Repentence and mercy are the only hope of escaping payment...as far as I can see.

Justice and fairness are just words that have implied meaning. Society and culture will dictate what is just and fair. Is the pride of lion's waiting in the grass for the opportune moment to attack the slow baby water buffalo fair? If the mother buffalo has the cognitive ability to recognize concepts like justice and fairness, I would say no she would believe the situation to be very unfair and that justice does not exist. Do I believe it to be fair and just? Compared to the harsh reality of survival in their environment I would say yes because only the strong, intelligent or most cunning will survive. Does the waxing and waning moon deliberate this as well? It is really a matter of perspective. In the grand scheme of things, especially when contemplating non-duality there is no justice, or injustice. There is no fairness, or unfairness there simply is. Here in our current existence though, yes I believe justice and fairness can exist. There are too many factors though which influences one's decisions in being fair and just. Money, power, respect, ignorance, the illusion of some status quo that must be maintained. Everyone has their own moral compass, the directions we choose to follow though are discovered and nurtured at a very young age and sometimes prove very daunting to break. Some may believe it to be a utopian dream, others a matter of opinion to what exactly is fair and just. Somewhere along the way I'm sure it was developed with the best intentions but some may agree, it may be coming off the rails. Who knows. Just be the most fair and just person you can be! Maybe it will catch on. Sorry for the rambling.

a reply to: MrBlasphymy

No rambling detected by me. My outlook is positive because people seeking fairness will rise up as history shows us.

As some have already stated previously, there is no such thing as right and wrong, nor justice and fairness, at least empirically, that will remain fixed and unchanged, throughout all time. These are not objects to be objectively studied, but rather concepts, created by the minds of men, and are as tangible as any other belief.

This is not to say that you cannot define these concepts for yourself, taking into consideration what is acceptable and otherwise, in your society, and from this create a set of morals to live and/or judge others by. Just don't expect those morals to work for all beings, for all of time. It just won't happen.

Even during my lifetime, my values have changed, and evolved, hence my morals have reflected these changes. Even a seemingly simple subject that many seem to agree on, when combined with differing scenarios, changes the morality.

For example, I am going to assume most of us believe that taking another s life is wrong, correct? Is it always wrong, in every circumstance? Let's run it through a few differing circumstances, shall we? What if they had something you really wanted, or they made you mad...would it be ok to take their life then? What if they broke into your house, and were threatening to kill your loved ones? Or, if they were an enemy combatant, while you are fighting in a war? What if they are suffering, and begging you to help them end that suffering? What if you grew up in a closed, small ,tight knit community, and had been taught since birth that people of a certain race, or sexual orientation, were not really human in the same sense that you are, and you perceived that they were threatening your way of life? Is it ok then? Is it worse to kill in that circumstance? And, if so, do you carry out reciprocal penalties for those that fail, and do kill someone? So, if I murder someone (and the local social mores, and laws, are not ok with that ) in the name of fairness, should I be murdered, also? And, if so, who could do it, while also not becoming a murderer, themselves?

And that is just the tip of the iceberg on something relatively simple, and already we see that you could only judge an action as right or wrong/fair and just, in the context of the situation, and since each situation is completely unique, it does us little good to throw around a moral blanket statement like: 'Killing someone is wrong', when sometimes it is not even true. Which would be lying, so, is lying right or wrong? What about being long winded on the subject? Yeah? Well, I think so too, at least in this instance, and so will end now, in the name of all that is fair and good.

Bottom line: Good/bad, right/wrong, good/evil,justice, and fairness are all about as solid as any other opinion or belief, which is 'not so much'.

Great topic, and thanks for reading my two cents worth on the subject. You did the RIGHT thing!