What really happened in Fallujah?

Compare this report to the massive military victory reportend in the US press.
With the tousands of reported insurgents killed.

Also note in the report the sniper bullet incident.

www.guardian.co.uk...

So whats your point here. I read noting different except the anti-american and bias point of view of this "reporter". War sucks, people die, stuff gets damaged. BFD....................

Err. apart about the srious lack of thousans of dad insurgents and a lot of pissed cilvilans?

And not regarding the incitement of civil war by the wonderful people managmet skill of the US?

Oh nothing...

more of fallujah?

special report at aljazeera.net

However, I do not see the US killing the appointed leaders of the country Iraq). Puppets or not, these are people who could usher in a new state of Democracy for the Iraqi citizens within the next 10 years, and keep hard line Muslims out of the region. Hussien spent most of his life dealing with this. He controlled that country, like it or not, and no one stepped out of line or they were killed.

I empathize with those who have lost their homes, and if the citizens of Iraq could expel the insurgents and allow the government to become extablished, maybe some greater good will be done. Until then, war is hell, and to be honest, we could have leveled Fallujah in hours, and if we were in the non-pc 1960's we may have.

Instead we are trying to accomplish an unwinnable task under a microscope. God help all our soldiers and the citiznes in Iraq wanting change.

Assuming our military capabilites had been annihilated beforehand.

If China invaded the US.. Appointed a few old style communist dictators..

How long do you think the chinese and their dictators would last?

How long before we start bombing the chinese troops?

How long before we start killing anyone even remotley helping or associated with them?


Stop pretending you wouldn't do the exact same thing the Iraqi's are doing now. If this country came under massive attack and occupation I for one KNOW what I would be doing. It would be quite similar to what Iraq looks like today in my opinion.

I agree. It is a no win situation in my eyes. Not unless they REALLY beleived in what we went there for.


But the US is no different when it comes to morality. In solitary confinement in prisons if you wont stop banging on your bed or the prison bars, the guards will come and break your fingers and bend your back so you would stop.

I did 30 days in jail because of a fight with my parents when I was 18. I pushed my father so I got a domestic violence when I was on probation for the police finding marijuana in my friends car that I tried to hide by dumping it in the woods when they told us to exit the vehicle. So I had to take the fall, even though it was less then a gram and not illegal(was a roach from a marijuana ciggarette). Police dont care.

Anyways I ended up in solitary confinement for telling a guard he better start respecting me and that I am here for a few weeks and not some peice of trash. They are no better then the Iraqi police who torture people, strongarming you and disrespecting you.

I didnt cause much trouble and i was in solitary for a few days and nothing bad happened to me other then being bunked with some crack addict. Some people would bang on their bars, their metal beds and just scream for hours on end like animals.

The guards would not mess around and about 5 of them would go in, pin the person the bed, snap their fingers, and then put their knees on the prisoners back and bend it until the person was screaming for mercy.

I seen alot of prisoners go into solitary fine, then come out with casts.

Worse experience of my life.

Anyways, I didnt think this stuff was allowed, but obviously torture is OK to calm prisoners even in the United States.

So how bad is it to see Iraqi guards whipping prisoners into submission? If the US does the same thing?

They might do more serious things, but really I think we should be setting an example that we wont torture anyone. Else we arent any better. I never seen anyone sexually humiliated like in Abhu Ghraib, but I did see some forms of torture.

Oh well. I learned my lesson, dont mess witht he parents they will not hesistate to open up a can of POPO on your a$$

I see; so, anything that is written about this stuff that is not sufficiently pro-American just gets written of and becomes 'anti-American', huh?

The Guardian is a UK newspaper and whilst it is certainly not pro-Bush it is far from anti-American.

Bush and his gang are not 'America'.

War sucks, people die, stuff gets damaged. BFD....................

- Yeah who needs to pay the slightest bit of notice to the ideas of war crimes and all that inconvenient stuff, that's just for the losing side, right?!

[edit on 11-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

"Anyways I ended up in solitary confinement for telling a guard he better start respecting me and that I am here for a few weeks and not some peice of trash. They are no better then the Iraqi police who torture people, strongarming you and disrespecting you. "

actually id think you find its the americans doing most of the torturing, as usual... As for fallujah, the true story is america is unable to control less then half the city, and the freedom fighters are holding the majority... US forces have also used banned chemical weapons and "dirty bombs" (not sure what they are tho...)

I just wish the Global resistance could organize and bring the war to american soil so americans can feel the cost of war, and see if they still find it so acceptable then...

Originally posted by Xerrog
Assuming our military capabilites had been annihilated beforehand.

If China invaded the US.. Appointed a few old style communist dictators..

How long do you think the chinese and their dictators would last?

How long before we start bombing the chinese troops?

How long before we start killing anyone even remotley helping or associated with them?


Stop pretending you wouldn't do the exact same thing the Iraqi's are doing now. If this country came under massive attack and occupation I for one KNOW what I would be doing. It would be quite similar to what Iraq looks like today in my opinion.

Ummm......right. Ok, so if the Bush Administration was repressive and killing hundreds of thousands of americans, you would fight to keep them in power ? That is what you are saying is it not.
Oh yeah, using the Chinsese communists is a stupid argument, there is no relation to the events in Iraq. You are talking about removing peoples freedom rather than giving it to them, which is what a democracy is.

Originally posted by Xerrog
Assuming our military capabilites had been annihilated beforehand.

If China invaded the US.. Appointed a few old style communist dictators..

How long do you think the chinese and their dictators would last?

How long before we start bombing the chinese troops?

How long before we start killing anyone even remotley helping or associated with them?


Stop pretending you wouldn't do the exact same thing the Iraqi's are doing now. If this country came under massive attack and occupation I for one KNOW what I would be doing. It would be quite similar to what Iraq looks like today in my opinion.

Well we don't have a murdering dictator in power, but the Iraqis did. And by the way, most Iraqis aren't fighting the US, but the media makes it sound worse than it really is i think. I understand that people are dying, and until the Iraqi people stand up and fight the terrorists, it may continue.

Originally posted by rogue1


Ummm......right. Ok, so if the Bush Administration was repressive and killing hundreds of thousands of americans, you would fight to keep them in power ? That is what you are saying is it not.
Oh yeah, using the Chinsese communists is a stupid argument, there is no relation to the events in Iraq. You are talking about removing peoples freedom rather than giving it to them, which is what a democracy is.

The bush administration is killing hundreds of thousands of people (show me the evidence saddam kiilled hundreds of thousands and ill give you my lfie savings) You are giving nobody freedom (do you own freedom? is it yours to give?) your country was stealing oil and other riches and spreading your western ideals...
So if your going to defend a murderer like bush go ahead, but dont defend him with lies of freedom when the only thing you bring is gennocide and mass graves...

After reading these boards for a couple of weeks, ive realised how many people like bush there are in the us (the media here paints a picture of the US hating bush...) Im starting to think you people deserve whatever you get, for all you are doing to Iraq and many other oil rich countries...

as posted by P Amaru
The bush administration is killing hundreds of thousands of people (show me the evidence saddam kiilled hundreds of thousands and ill give you my lfie savings)

I really think that you don't want to make such an assertion and bet.
One, the Bush claim of "hundreds of thousands" is false, inaccurate, and quite misleading.
Two, there are a variety of topics within ATS discussing Saddam's acts of genocide, killing, murder, mutilation, mass graves, etc. to be found, not withstanding the amount of such to be found utilizing any type decent search engine.
Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people





seekerof

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
I really think that you don't want to make such an assertion and bet.
One, the Bush claim of "hundreds of thousands" is false, inaccurate, and quite misleading.
Two, there are a variety of topics within ATS discussing Saddam's acts of genocide, killing, murder, mutilation, mass graves, etc. to be found, not withstanding the amount of such to be found utilizing any type decent search engine.
Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people

Bush has caused 10x more deaths then saddam ever did in iraq alone... Funny how its ok for the US to bomb cities flat hunting for made up terrorists, but when Saddam gassed people who where plotting against him (just like americans would...) the US has to jump in to "save" (aka steal/kill/plunder/rape)





seekerof

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Seekerof]

as posted by P Amaru
Bush has caused 10x more deaths then saddam ever did in iraq alone... Funny how its ok for the US to bomb cities flat hunting for made up terrorists, but when Saddam gassed people who where plotting against him (just like americans would...) the US has to jump in to "save" (aka steal/kill/plunder/rape)

Look, P Amaru, you anti-American dribble (not drivel) is well known among some to most of 'us'. How about back your allegations, claims, and assertions up with some facts, as in factual, credible sources, instead of ranting or spouting. Got any links to Human Rights Watch or such to back what you are implying? Till then, your arguing semantics.




seekerof

Your right Saddam was a murderous dictator. So is Kim Jong Il, So are the Saudi Royals, so are many many goverments around the world. Many of those goverments the US backs and supports while the people rising up in their countries against the brutal goverments are labled terrorists by us.

Your logic about Saddam being a dictator making it OK to go to war, level their cities, kill tens of thousands of innocents, and put the country on the brink of civil war is seriously flawed.

If that is a good reason for us to attack a country then why arent we attacking the rest? Why are we backing many of them?

Our goverment as a whole couldnt give a crap less if someone is a murderous dictator, as long as they give us what we want when we want it.



In the end no matter why we went there our actions of the past two years have been much worse then any of Saddams in recent memory. While I agree he needed to be removed I beleive it was absolutley none of our business to do it. Since we have "intervened" the average Iraqi life has went from quite decent with some fear under a murderous dictator to almost unlivable with near absolute terror (A lot of it of us) under their would be saviors.

I do beleive we have to see this through to the end, but we also need to make sure this bull doesnt happen again. We rule this country, not Bush.

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by P Amaru
Bush has caused 10x more deaths then saddam ever did in iraq alone... Funny how its ok for the US to bomb cities flat hunting for made up terrorists, but when Saddam gassed people who where plotting against him (just like americans would...) the US has to jump in to "save" (aka steal/kill/plunder/rape)

Look, P Amaru, you anti-American dribble (not drivel) is well known among some to most of 'us'. How about back your allegations, claims, and assertions up with some facts, as in factual, credible sources, instead of ranting or spouting. Got any links to Human Rights Watch or such to back what you are implying? Till then, your arguing semantics.




seekerof

ok.. google iraq solder steal/rape/murder any, see how many links you find, i get news stories for all, US soldiers rapiing young girls, stealing jewlry, murdering unarmed injured people in mosques, flattened city of falluja.... The credible sources are all around you, even in your BS spreading media the trueth comes out too often. So yes i might be anti-US, but thats because i have a good reason to thanks.

Ok I don't like what our leadership did to Iraq, IMO they lied to american citizens to justify a war. But everyone needs to give the US military a break, look at any war ever and you will find atrocities. Are there cases where american troops have raped pillaged and burned... Probably. Is it by far astoundingly less prevalent than if any other military were handling the occupation... Yes. You might be like me and disagree with the war and occupation of Iraq, but do your homework and you will see that even the wildest claims being made about civvie casualties in Iraq are astoundingly low comparativelly to any other modern war.
P.s: I just want to say to our armed forces great job guys and our hearts our with you

Originally posted by P Amaru

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by P Amaru
Bush has caused 10x more deaths then saddam ever did in iraq alone... Funny how its ok for the US to bomb cities flat hunting for made up terrorists, but when Saddam gassed people who where plotting against him (just like americans would...) the US has to jump in to "save" (aka steal/kill/plunder/rape)

Look, P Amaru, you anti-American dribble (not drivel) is well known among some to most of 'us'. How about back your allegations, claims, and assertions up with some facts, as in factual, credible sources, instead of ranting or spouting. Got any links to Human Rights Watch or such to back what you are implying? Till then, your arguing semantics.




seekerof

ok.. google iraq solder steal/rape/murder any, see how many links you find, i get news stories for all, US soldiers rapiing young girls, stealing jewlry, murdering unarmed injured people in mosques, flattened city of falluja.... The credible sources are all around you, even in your BS spreading media the trueth comes out too often. So yes i might be anti-US, but thats because i have a good reason to thanks.

And you better hope that no one could use photoshop because they can make it look like soldiers are doing brutal things to Iraqis but ther really aren't. And there are people like you who would make up photos that showed those things because they hate what the US is doing or just the US in general. Google images is hardly a credible source.

Originally posted by Kosmo Yagkoto
[
And you better hope that no one could use photoshop because they can make it look like soldiers are doing brutal things to Iraqis but ther really aren't. And there are people like you who would make up photos that showed those things because they hate what the US is doing or just the US in general. Google images is hardly a credible source.

so people make edited video clips ive seen... CNN ABC TNN etc all edit makeup there videos with ps? All the guard tortures are PS made in your opinion i suppose....

And the point that this war has less casualties is complete bs... This is not a war, that is why the casulties arnt so high, the US are not fighting a organized army, there terrorising innocent poor people fighting for there right to live without US pigs in there country