Masons here at ATS say the Mason belief has no religion?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
So you do justify your lodges discrimination because...... Ancient landmarks? Because it's written in a book?

I do not consider it discrimination, I consider it a requirement.

So answer these questions.

Do you believe in the bible?

Not literally.

Did you take your oath with your hand on the bible?

I did not use a King James Bible.

Because you said that if i didn't believe then i must have lied.

Where did I say this?

Are you ok with these ancient landmarks being upheld?

I made it clear that I am as it is a requirement in my jurisdiction.

The Ancient Landmarks of Freemasonry:

1. The modes of recognition.
2. The division of symbolic Masonry into 3 degres.
3. The Legend of the Third Degree.
4. The government of the fraternity by a presiding officer called a Grand Master.
5. The prerogative of the Grand Master to preside over every assembly of the craft.
6. The prerogative of the Grand Master to grant Dispensations for conferring degrees at irregular times.
7. The prerogative of the Grand Master to give dispensations for opening and holding Lodges.
8. The prerogative of the Grand Master to make masons at sight.
9. The necessity of masons to congregate in lodges.
10. The government of the craft, when so congregated in a Lodge by a Master and two Wardens.
11. The necessity that every lodge, when congregated, should be duly tiled.
12. The right of every mason to be represented in all general meetings of the craft and to instruct his representatives.
13. The Right of every mason to appeal from the decision of his brethren in Lodge convened, to the Grand Lodge or General Assembly of Masons.
14. The right of every Mason to visit and sit in every regular Lodge.
15. No visitor, unknown as a Mason, can enter a Lodge without first passing an examination according to ancient usage
16. No Lodge can interfere in the business of another Lodge, nor give degrees to brethren who are members of other Lodges
17. Every freemason is Amenable to the Laws and Regulations of the masonic jurisdiction in which he resides.
18. Qualifications of a candidate: that he shall be a man, unmultilated, free born, and of mature age.
19. A belief in the existence of God.
20. Subsidiary to this belief in God, is the belief in a resurrection to a future life.
21. A "Book of the Law" shall constitute an indispensable part of the furniture of every Lodge.
22. The equality of all men before God.
23. The secrecy of the institution.
24. The foundation of a Speculative Science, for purposes of religious or moral teaching.
25. These Landmarks can never be changed.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Woodcarver
So you do justify your lodges discrimination because...... Ancient landmarks? Because it's written in a book?

I do not consider it discrimination, I consider it a requirement.

So answer these questions.

Do you believe in the bible?

Not literally.

Did you take your oath with your hand on the bible?

I did not use a King James Bible.

Because you said that if i didn't believe then i must have lied.

Where did I say this?

Are you ok with these ancient landmarks being upheld?

I made it clear that I am as it is a requirement in my jurisdiction.

1. You call it a requirement instead of discrimination? Mental gymnastics worthy of a blue ribbon. No matter what you call it, you are supporting the idea that not all individuals are equal, That the claim that some people don't meet your "requirements" is a plausible argument, that atheists can't be in your order, when the order is actually full of atheists.


2. did you take your oath with your hand on any bible? Which one?

3. Why do i have to show you where you said certain things?

There very well may be but I am not personally aware of any. The application we use in New Jersey has a line which asks quite clearly if you believe in a Supreme Being. Not sure what anyone would get out of lying and to be honest I do not think I would want to be in a lodge with someone who felt it necessary to lie to gain admission.

again i'll ask, which bible, (that you do not believe in) did you swear your oath on?

originally posted by: KSigMason
The Ancient Landmarks of Freemasonry:

1. The modes of recognition.
2. The division of symbolic Masonry into 3 degres.
3. The Legend of the Third Degree.
4. The government of the fraternity by a presiding officer called a Grand Master.
5. The prerogative of the Grand Master to preside over every assembly of the craft.
6. The prerogative of the Grand Master to grant Dispensations for conferring degrees at irregular times.
7. The prerogative of the Grand Master to give dispensations for opening and holding Lodges.
8. The prerogative of the Grand Master to make masons at sight.
9. The necessity of masons to congregate in lodges.
10. The government of the craft, when so congregated in a Lodge by a Master and two Wardens.
11. The necessity that every lodge, when congregated, should be duly tiled.
12. The right of every mason to be represented in all general meetings of the craft and to instruct his representatives.
13. The Right of every mason to appeal from the decision of his brethren in Lodge convened, to the Grand Lodge or General Assembly of Masons.
14. The right of every Mason to visit and sit in every regular Lodge.
15. No visitor, unknown as a Mason, can enter a Lodge without first passing an examination according to ancient usage
16. No Lodge can interfere in the business of another Lodge, nor give degrees to brethren who are members of other Lodges
17. Every freemason is Amenable to the Laws and Regulations of the masonic jurisdiction in which he resides.
18. Qualifications of a candidate: that he shall be a man, unmultilated, free born, and of mature age.
19. A belief in the existence of God.
20. Subsidiary to this belief in God, is the belief in a resurrection to a future life.
21. A "Book of the Law" shall constitute an indispensable part of the furniture of every Lodge.
22. The equality of all men before God.
23. The secrecy of the institution.
24. The foundation of a Speculative Science, for purposes of religious or moral teaching.
25. These Landmarks can never be changed.

No.2. The equality of all men before god.

These mandates were written a long time ago. Well before our modern era of science and rationalism. That you would use them to denegrate me or to exclude me from being seen as an equal, worthy of brotherhood, shows me that all of the collective lessons of masonry are quite lost on you.

Shall we also go back to the days before women's suffrage?

How about slavery?

These issues were accepted norms of the time as well. Many a mason held slaves and oppressed women. But in our time we know that these acts are barbaric because it holds a group apart, as less equal.


I would think you could see this. We decided that those were bad ideas. but it is the same kind of thinking that we are dealing with on this topic. It is the same idea. You think an atheist can't possibly add to the conversation. I say you are supporting archaic rules which hold one part of society apart from your in-group. That is discrimination and the definition of bigotry. No matter what your tradition says, bad ideas should be rooted out wherever, whenever, they are found.

But honestly, like i said earlier. This isn't an issue because masonry is full of atheists already. They may not be open with you about it, but i imagine you would not be very open minded about it to them and most of us can see people like you a mile away.

a reply to: Woodcarver
As an Entered Apprentice you were charged to "adhere to the ancient Landmarks of the fraternity". By declaring yourself an atheist you go against the charges and obligations of Freemasonry.

I'm not denigrating you, all I did was ask a question, but I do find it hypocritical that you can call yourself an atheist and a Freemason. You dismiss the Ancient Landmarks, but those are founding principles of the fraternity. I'm not saying you are less equal, you're now making assumptions and drawing conclusions from those assumptions. You're also making wild accusations that simply because I kept my word that I'm somehow against women's rights or for slavery. That's a big logical fallacy.

There's nothing antiquated or barbaric about the Ancient Landmarks nor are they comparable to slavery or oppression. The fact that you dismiss so much of the foundations of Freemasonry shows that you did not pay attention and lost your way. To say that our Ancient Landmarks are archaic, antiquated, and "bad ideas" is to say the same thing about the fraternity itself and the belief of every Mason you call Brother.

I think you over-estimate the quantity of atheists, but if one is an atheist then they have lied from the very beginning of their entry into Freemasonry. Most Masons I know and those in my Lodge are very open with me. We actually have great discussions about theology, philosophy, and so on...usually over some Scotch after Lodge.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Some lodges are linked to Adam Weishaupt whom was the supposed father of the Illuminati.

Adam Weishaupt was a Mason who left to form the Bavarian Illuminati
He adapted some of Masonary's ideas for Illuminati ... independently

It is probable that Adam Weishaupt's Illuminati were later hijacked

It is best to read Adam Weishaupt's in his own words ... The Bavarian Illuminati were disbanded by the intervention of state and church... however it was too late as it had spread rapidly through Europe ... having many wealthy and prominent members ... the organisation was fractured in so much as ideas are interpreted in different ways by different groups ...

As I say ... It is best to go to source if you are to try glean what made this extraordinary individual tick ... and we are fortunate to have a few of "Adam Weishaupt's" correspondences in the public domain.

The Bavarian Illuminati were independent of any other group ... though they had members who were also Masons

a reply to: DeathSlayer

My first experience with Masons was when an elder at my church invited me to come to a masonic meeting. Most Masons I have ever known where Christians and religious. That of course doesn't mean that Masonic things are, or have ever been pure or holy, and I myself believe that at top levels of Masonry, the situation is satanic in purpose.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
Well, why do you think its satanic at the "top levels" of Masonry?

What do you define as the "top levels of Masonry"?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
1. You call it a requirement instead of discrimination? Mental gymnastics worthy of a blue ribbon. No matter what you call it, you are supporting the idea that not all individuals are equal, That the claim that some people don't meet your "requirements" is a plausible argument, that atheists can't be in your order, when the order is actually full of atheists.

I find it odd you call it 'my order' since you are supposedly in it as well. The state where you reside (Tennessee?) has the same requirement, they also do not permit women to join. Are you equally outraged over this?

2. did you take your oath with your hand on any bible? Which one?

No, I did not use a Bible.

3. Why do i have to show you where you said certain things?

That comment was in reference to a hypothetical candidate trying to join in my jurisdiction, please observe the pronouns.

a reply to: Malynn

Very true, but in my case, I don't actually *believe* in a sentient being as prescribed in multiple religious texts. That being, if true, sounds pretty damned horrific in my opinion.

Having said that, I don't believe when we die it's just void or nothingness -- it just doesn't seem to makes sense to me. But then, who says it should...

Anyhow - I do believe in life and energy and we're all part of this "energy" that is constant and eternal. To me, that's *my* creator and that's how I justified the BIg Question when I was initiated into Freemasonry.

And it was the same for many in my lodge. I know some Masons do not agree with this but... hell, it's the 21st Century and the case for God, in the traditional Christian sense, is just bot viable anymore. It doesn't make sense. In my opinion, my belief makes a bit more sense... not a lot.

(also please note I used *believe* and *opinion* in my statement -- none of what I said is fact.. just my belief)

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
The state where you reside (Tennessee?) has the same requirement

Wait, what? After reading this line, I went back to where woodcarver had posted his lodge. His post led me here,
www.mtmoriahlodge.org...

I know a few people from this Lodge! One being a close relative who joined there. I am fairly certain that his claim here,

I never lied and neither did any of the other atheists in my lodge. It is an open topic of discussion in our group. Although a few folks don't understand, i assure you, i am well known in my community and no one questions the sincerity of my actions.

On my application, i wrote no. They still wanted me.

It would be silly to think that masonry is atheist free. You can't think of one atheist in your lodge? Out of how many members?

Is an exaggeration that they speak openly about it and only a few don't understand.

Murfreesboro is a college town with forward moving thinkers no doubt about it. However, the good ol boys are still there and present as well.

Hey Woodcarver, you should pop into the Mount Juliet Lodge Wednesday morning at 8am for breakfast and tell me how many atheists you see there. Just a few miles up the road and Aethism would have those guys having heart attacks face first into their pickled peppers!

While what you say may be true about you being open about your lack of religion, I really feel now that you are exaggerating about the acceptance of it. Since you are so well known in your community (your words) maybe some are afraid to speak against you. Or, the lodge has been completely overrun by frat boys who don't care either way.

Still not picking on you just so we are clear. Just trying to see it through your eyes.

a reply to: noonebutme

You put enough thought into what you believe and why, and knowing the requirements of masonry, you reconciled with yourself that what you believe is compatible with freemasonry, there is no further explanation needed. Your relationship with nature/The Creator is personal.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

that atheists can't be in your order, when the order is actually full of atheists.

As you know, it is quite normal to test another Mason that we don't know personally, so if I may just take the liberty of putting our minds at ease by asking a quick mundane question or two that you won't find in the ritual or on the internet, but that any Mason of 20 years would know, and that can be asked in public without giving anything away:

If I usually test visitors who come to lodge, and then formally thank them at dinner, who am I most likely to be?

Masons often joke that a Lodge is controlled from the North, and not the East. Who are they referring to?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
feel an atheist can't really learn the true secrets of Freemasonry.

this is my fav though. Implying that an atheist couldn't possibly understand the lessons and virtues espoused by masonry? It could not be any clearer and you missed the words coming out of your own mouth.

It was actually me who said this, not AugustusMasonicus. I did give my reasons for saying this, as you requested, and also asked you a question or two about your thoughts on what I said, to which you have yet to reply...

originally posted by: noonebutme
Very true, but in my case, I don't actually *believe* in a sentient being as prescribed in multiple religious texts.

You and I are on the same page Brother. I do not adhere to any religious dogma and describe myself as spiritual, not religious. Hope that helps.

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
Well, why do you think its satanic at the "top levels" of Masonry?

What do you define as the "top levels of Masonry"?

That's an awful lot of stars for gibberish.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
Well, why do you think its satanic at the "top levels" of Masonry?

What do you define as the "top levels of Masonry"?

That's an awful lot of stars for gibberish.

Actually, no. It's the main question that those who use the term "high level, or top level" masons, rarely have the slightest clue who they are actually referring to, they are just parroting some garbage they heard on some fundamentalist Christian hate site. Actual masons, and those who took the time to look past point A, know the facts and also know that there are no levels higher than that of master mason. So a post that questions the mental capacity of the one who claimed to have knowledge of "the sooper secret higher levels" is spot on and should be worthy of stars.

a reply to: network dude

That funny part about this is you get into ever escalating scenarios where the detractor is saying, 'You are just not high enough', but they cannot define what is 'high enough' or their 'high enough' has nothing to do with Masonry. All the time missing the irony that they are not even a Mason but seem to know what 'high enough' happens to be.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I constantly attempt to reach this level of "highness", but I seem to forget what it was all about once getting there.


really though, I enjoy the circular logic. You aren't high enough, or....you are and you will lie to protect the secrets. it's a catch all to ensure that you can't win the argument.

a reply to: network dude

Something to do with Lucifer from what all the know-it-alls have been telling me for the past 9 years.

a reply to: network dude
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Cheers, fellas.

I think what gets missed in the public eye with regards to Freemasonry and the use of the Bible and God, is that it isn't about your belief as a Christian in God, or a Muslim in Allah, etc - its just about something (not someone) 'bigger' than yourself.