Masons here at ATS say the Mason belief has no religion?

a reply to: KSigMason

Freemasonry is neither a cult nor a religion.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just because I'm a new member does not mean I haven'd read some threads already.

And you can claim to not be a cult and/or a religion as long as you like. You don't have the power to make up MY mind, regarding what kind of club you belong to. That's up to me to decide. You can not influence my opinion on what free-masonry is in MY perception. And I'm a woman, don't forget that part. So...you can not say to me, "just become a member and you will know."

"I would not want to become a member of a club that would accept me as a member." (Marx...brother Marx...pharaphrased...somehow...)

a reply to: Willingly
Well, I'm providing facts and reason, and perception is not reality.

a reply to: KSigMason

Well, I'm providing facts and reason, and perception is not reality.

So...."proving" facts and reason is reality in your definition? What is reality? Can you define it?

Here is my definition, in two words: Species truth. If you want me to elaborate on it, please let me know. But first I would like to know what your definition of reality is....other than seemingly proving facts and reason. What you call facts and reason, I call your idea of it, your concept of it, but not reality as such.

In the realm of cults/religions/spirituality there are very very few facts anyway. If any. Can we agree on that?

a reply to: Willingly
Reality is something that has the quality of having existence or substance

a reply to: KSigMason

a reply to: Willingly

Reality is something that has the quality of having existence or substance

Nice try.

But...

1.) What is existence?

2.) What is substance?

Please define those terms without writing a long philosophical essay...if you can. But please don't feel restricted to keep it short. Just elaborate....

a reply to: Willingly
Existence is the state of existing (to have actual being or occurring in nature; can be found)

Substance is the quality of being meaningful, useful, or important.

a reply to: KSigMason

Existence is the state of existing (to have actual being or occurring in nature; can be found)

Substance is the quality of being meaningful, useful, or important.

Okay, your definiton of existence I can force myself to agree upon. But your definition of substance seem to be a tiny little bit off. So...what is not meaningfull, usefull or important doesn't have substance in your definition? What you deny and reject as being meaningfull, usefull (for whom?) or important (for whom?) you do not give the status of having substance? What if I find what you say here in this dialog is meaningless, of no use and unimportant for me, does it lack substance then?

But back on topic. My question is: Why is it so problematic for masons to admit that they are members of a cult? What's the problem with that? Why would it be bad or unwanted to be the member of some cult?

If free-masonry is considered a (religious) cult, what's the problem?

originally posted by: Willingly

My question is: Why is it so problematic for masons to admit that they are members of a cult?

Q: Why is it problematic for you to admit you're a member of the ku klux klan?

A: Because you aren't. It's that simple.

a reply to: Saurus

Q: Why is it problematic for you to admit you're a member of the ku klux klan?

Excuse me "Sir", but that was NOT my question. My question was: Why would it be problematic for masons to admit that they are members of a cult? Please answer MY question and not yours!

Is the term "cult" assossiated by you as being something evil, nasty or immoral? Like I could assume because you came up with the ku klux klan as an expample for a cult? (My former psycho-analyst would think that is very telling.)

A: Because you aren't. It's that simple.

I did NOT say you are a member of the ku klux klan. And therefore your answer is not an answer to MY question but to the question YOU came up with to avoid to answer MY actual question. Nice strategy, by the way.

Definition of the term cult:

www.merriam-webster.com...

originally posted by: Willingly
My question is: Why is it so problematic for masons to admit that they are members of a cult? What's the problem with that? Why would it be bad or unwanted to be the member of some cult?

If free-masonry is considered a (religious) cult, what's the problem?

Because Freemasonry is not a cult.

a reply to: KSigMason

Because Freemasonry is not a cult.

Just because you keep repeating that free-masonry is not a cult, does not make it so.

As far as I'm informed free-masonry fits some of the definitions or what a cult is. And my question was not if masonry is a cult or not, but what would be problematic IF it is a cult. In other words: Why would it be a problem IF masonry would be considered as a cult? What's the problem?

And the answer to that question can not be, "because free-masonry is not a cult." That is NOT a correct answer to my question. Once again, let's just assume masonry IS a cult, what would be the problem for its members if that would be the case? THAT is my question.

Do you get the difference? Or must I rephrase and repeat my question with every post to get a proper answer?

a reply to: Willingly
And same to you; saying we are doesn't mean that we are.

As I've pointed out, you're misinformed and are not viewing this from the proper context.

a reply to: KSigMason

TextAs I've pointed out, you're misinformed and are not viewing this from the proper context.

Okay, maybe it's true that I'm misinformed, but how can I become perfectely informed about what free-masonry is all about? And unfortunately I can't become a member myself, although I don't have a criminal record and would want to become a member for the sake of getting to know what this particular...cult...äh...club is all about. But I'm a woman. Seem as if I have to rely on hear-say regarding free-masonry. Do I?

Anyhow...

We go in circles here...

My question again: IF free-masonry would be considered as a cult, what would be the problem with that for members? Why would that be seen as problematic?

(I'm persistent...because I REALLY really wanna know!)

And please don't get me wrong. IF free-masonry would be a male club only, in which men hang out and talk about their cars and motorbikes, their stereo equipment, their problems with woman...etc., I would not have any problem with that. And I wouldn't consider it as being a cult, but just some club where men want to hang out with each other. Prefectely understandable in my eyes. But that's not what free-masonry is all about, isn't it?

originally posted by: Willingly
Prefectely understandable in my eyes. But that's not what free-masonry is all about, isn't it?

A typical regular Masonic meeting would be as follows (although the sequence may vary from Lodge to Lodge, but all contain each of these parts):

- The first part of each meeting is a business meeting where the rent, fees, expenses and other matters are discussed and voted upon.

- We then proceed with a Degree ceremony, either a 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree, depending on the candidate who is next in line. The entire evening is held for that one candidate and he is the guest of honour for the entire evening. All the preparation, the Degree work, the dinner, focuses around that one person - the candidate for the evening.

- After the Lodge is closed, we go to dinner, and have the formal part of the dinner where toasts are done, lots of chatting, a glass of wine, perhaps.

- After the toasts and dinner, the informal part of the evening starts, where the guys just hang out together as friends, loosen the ties, have a beer or three, and talk about cars and motorbikes etc. It is also often during this part of the evening where many of the deepest and most profound esoteric discussions are held. Discussions of religion and politics are prohibited within the Lodge, but after the formalities of the evening are over, the informal enlightened fellowship is often amazing.

a reply to: Saurus

- We then proceed with a Degree ceremony, either a 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree, depending on the candidate who is next in line. The entire evening is held for that one candidate and he is the guest of honour for the entire evening. All the preparation, the Degree work, the dinner, focuses around that one person - the candidate for the evening.

Seems as if I'm having a problem with this part, the "degree ceremony" part. What kind of degree in what kind of science or craft is that "ceremony" all about?

And you indirectely confirmed that I, as a woman, do indeed have to rely on hear-say regarding what free-masonry is all about. So...no DIRECT experience for me, hmmmm?

Thanks for excluding me!

a reply to: Willingly

There are plenty of Co-Masonry lodges that accept women.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

There are plenty of Co-Masonry lodges that accept women.

I'm not co-dependent. That you can be sure of!

a reply to: Willingly

Co-Freemasonry recognizes women and men on equal footing. Women and men meet regularly within the same Lodge, and participate in ritual and degree work as equals.


To answer your question,.... "IF" Freemasonry were considered to be a cult, the problem for members would be the stigma and connotation of the modern interpretation of the word "cult". It would be an offense to categorize Freemasonry under the same umbrella-term used to describe Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, or the Charles Manson Family cult.

Ritual(s)... are many. Most, in accordance with free and accepted masonry, teach a standard so outrageous... that one is compelled to have a belief in, if I may, a higher being.
For me... that higher being is God. I call him GOD.... by tradition... so as to dissolve my arrogance and minimize my ignorance to the fact.

There are in most cases a variety of gods. So we may lend ourselves to ritual(s) to better define our particular God. And to further the excellence of his majesty by submission to his will.

I... being both compassionate and prejudice... call my god: "Puerto Rico!"
Through him... I am made whole... whilst at the same time being in need of his guidance and arrogance. That is my first ritual... a proud ritual.

I strayed from the sight of my Lord and became wayward in the experience of living.
To find my way back... I had to learn the way back. It offended me greatly... and I cursed the house of my Lord. Ritual(s)... are the only way. I must be tried by fire... and that is only the beginning.

As is with most of my experiences... I linger with "doubts and fears"... "temptations"... "blasphemies and swearings"... and even "surrender!"

Six vile serpents which make for a foul and odious son... I am the scourge of my house.
I am the beguiling serpent... serpent number 7. See hexagram.

So... since I am outcast... I lend myself to the 30 and 4 stones that I find are likely to be the death of me.

These are better known as degrees of freemasonry. lol!

The Lord spoke to me once and said flattery was not the path to heaven. So when rhetoric revealed itself I thought my day was long.... it thus occurred to me that I have lived too long.

Rhetoric is 9° - 10° - 11° in my affairs with calamity....

Master Elect Of Nine became... to me... a matter of right and wrong.
I go through life admiring the crafty and subtle way(s) my Lord tries me.
The nine are everywhere.... they would devour me like demons. BUT!
"I Speak There Name(s)!"
1. Bully 2. Coward 3. Liar 4. Thief 5. Joker 6. Whore 7. Drunkard 8. Beggar 9. Proud...
My way back is to get through them. It is easier said than done.
I must face them and at times help them. I hated my Lord's craft because of it.

The right(s) and the wrong(s)... I learned are said and with much consideration for rhetoric.

Master Elect Of Fifteen was my undoing. I favored the "A-Bad-Don" (abaddon)... over Puerto Rico because his craft was not so difficult to aspire. The only trial was awareness. If I knew the name of the game I would prosper. But I lack incentives.
1. Hide And Seek... 2. Charades 3. Simon Says 4. Red Light, Green 5. Tag...
note: I shall not name them all because I rather smoke a cig.
These Games I do not initiate... but tend to play for pity's sake. I Speak of them as if it were right or wrong. Rituals I can not escape. To win is to learn praise and prize are my Lord's wishes...
Far be it from me to admire myself.

The Admiration I Have For The Devil Is Admirable In Itself. He Taught Me To Play These Games As A Child... But Failed To Warn Me They Would Be Real When I Got Older.
Puerto Rico... Is... A... Folly!

Master Elect Of Twelve... are the only twelve games I MUST play and initiate repeatedly to ensure my survival. I Speak them as the right in the wrong. Why? No serious Man never has to play... if his respect is sufficient.
1. Mother May I 2. 52 Pick Up etc... Games! Fair Or Not They Are REAL.
note: Forgive that I won't name them all. Just know that stones do hurt. And they do.

Before rhetoric... there is geometry... which leads to mathematics... which leads to logic... which leads to rhetoric. In that order... stones have made a fundamental for me.

Rituals... good I hope.


I use... from time to time... sticks (aka Bible) to justify my faith in the Lord's decision to cast me out of heredom (heredity)... I am not happy being a goody two shoes.

BTW:
0° Chamber Of Reflection...
1°-3° Blue Lodge...
4°-32° Lodge Of Perfection (+33°)...
note: those are the 34 rocks I Speak of.


I Am Pinocchio... And One Day I'll Be A Real Boy. Till Then... Lies And Sticks And Stones Shall Move My Heart To Content.

a reply to: Willingly

Whatever.