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What is the right-wing resolution to healthcare, anyways?

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posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 05:47 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Privatization! Let the free market work! Competition will drive down prices!

In reality? Let's translate that...

Price fixing! Monopolies! Collusion and corruption! Profit over human lives!


Yet so many people cannot fathom that prices are intended to go up when the goal is profit.

Hey why did costs of health insurance go up 150% between 2000-2008???

Because the goal of business is to make more money, it's not magic.




posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 05:52 PM
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Yes, the goal of a business is to make money.

There is more than one way to make money. It's not just about raising prices. It's also about trimming internal cost of business and getting more customers.

The truly successful businesses are the ones which can offer a service at a competitive price.

Unless you think that everyone just buys the most expensive good or service every time, and never looks for a better price.

Hey why did costs of healthcare go up on average more than 150% after Obamacare was put into place? Mine went up 200%. So much for saving us all $2500 per year, eh?



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 05:52 PM
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a reply to: yesyesyes

Nooo, how can you be right?

Business is all about providing services to people, it's about being there for them, getting them the quality service and or products they desire, and trying to make the world a better place. It's about being a job-creator, and stimulating the economy, and living the american dream!

Well, according to certain people, at least.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:05 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Privatization! Let the free market work! Competition will drive down prices!

In reality? Let's translate that...

Price fixing! Monopolies! Collusion and corruption! Profit over human lives!


When it comes to medicine, I think Rock, Paper, Scissors....end of.
Despite saying that, medical science has come a long way from grave robbing, and while there is a long way to go, we have the beauty of the internet that should make new discoveries, new methodology instantaneous, but as you say, we ourselves put a marker...a huge marker on all things medical. Nobody should have a need to pay for medicine, medical treatment, something so fundamental to being human.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:18 PM
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originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: deadlyhope

There is very little capitalism in healthcare... that is the problem. Government interference has distorted the market going back to WWII when wage controls caused employers to start offering healthcare to employees to compensate them since they couldn't pay higher wages.




Actually it is Corporate Interference in Government
Insurance Companies and Pharma Go to Government, the government is not going to them.

Insurance Companies writing Obamacare is Corporations interfering in the market place through the use of Government to make it happen.


It has also fundamentally changed how corporations interact with government—rather than trying to keep government out of its business (as they did for a long time), companies are now increasingly bringing government in as a partner, looking to see what the country can do for them.



See my thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...
How Corporate Lobbyists Conquered American Democracy

Insurance and Pharma Companies would take a paycut with real market forces at work, but they did not want that, they wanted everyone else to pitch in to prop them up.

Utilizing Policies that raise competition and lower barriers to entry in the market place is the key to lower prices.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:24 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

I read that a few days ago, great thread.

The amount of corporate lobbyists show us that business would not like to cut their prices or profit margins, cutting their special ties to the government would do that.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:32 PM
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*AHEM*

The free market may work for things like brands of clothing or one ketchup vs another. It even works for one plumber vs another. People can choose not to buy something or buy another brand, prices lower due to competition.

When it comes to something like healthcare? Not so much.

People will pay whatever price is set to save their lives or the lives of their loved ones. People aren't just going to stop trying to save their kids lives. They aren't going to stop getting CAT scans and chemo.

Nope. If the massive multi-national healthcare companies that make medicines, medical equipment, ect decide $XXX.XXX is the price, well ... you're not just going to find someone else cheaper that is within a reasonable distance.

Healthcare is one of those things that is NEEDED and not DISCRETIONARY. When something is discretionary the free market can regulate prices and consumer preferences and buying habits can indeed cause prices to rise and fall.

On things that people HAVE to buy? You can set the price to your liking, collude with your competition and BOOM! Everyone in the healthcare industry makes a healthy profit.
edit on 3-3-2016 by MystikMushroom because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:41 PM
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originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: TheTory

What is this "market" everyone keeps talking about?

My quote button isn't working.

"Kind of like the cable and satellite companies, cell phone companies, banks and the pharmaceutical industry? They're private and they're ripping off the consumer!"- WeRpeons



Market based competition for alike products does work, but for unique products, they charge what the can get away with and do not pass the savings on to the consumer but to corporate profits and shareholders.

As an example, the profit margins for food items are pencil thin because grocery stores selling the same items are everywhere.

The profit margins for an Iphone are huge and the consumer does not benefit from it being made in China
The shareholders and corporations benefit from it being made it China. It costs 200 dollars to make with labor and they sell it back to their American brothers for 650 bucks.

For unique healthcare and pharmaceutical products, the profit margins are huge and the kicker is that these items are not wants either but NEEDS in order to live or not suffer, so I renig on my previous statement and say even a free market would not fix the prices. They would take as much as they can.

So I take it back that



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:42 PM
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Anyone here ever see a television commercial for a hospital? They advertise state of the art treatment.

A state of the art MRI machine costs 3 million dollars.
That is just one tool that they use.

Everyone wants to live forever.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 06:50 PM
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originally posted by: Edumakated


In a free market, if a company is making excessive profits, there will be new entrants into a market to extract those excessive profits. That is what competition does.



In a Free Market, there would be no such thing as Patents either. That is Protectionism.
If someone can make it cheaper than you, then you lose.
The first color tv was insanely expensive but helped them recoup their investment costs and it took awhile for the competition to make a color tv as well.

It should be the same with Pharma Products.
They are free to charge the sky to recoup their investment costs but competition will come along and it will take time to reproduce it but will make it cheaper.

But the Mega Corporations do not want a Free Market
They want a Free Market for Labor and a Managed Market for themselves

That is what the TPP is as well
Managed Trade



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 07:00 PM
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originally posted by: jacobe001

In a Free Market, there would be no such thing as Patents either. That is Protectionism.
If someone can make it cheaper than you, then you lose.


While I agree with the sentiment, there is a purpose to patents. Creating a new good or service isn't free. An inventor needs time to recoup the costs or research and development. If Person A comes up with a new widget and sells it for X, but then Person B can reverse engineer the widget and figure out how to sell the exact same item for X - Y because they aren't hindered by lower capitol from the development, why would A bother to market the widget in the first place?



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

I believe in... Hmm.. Copyrights? Like I cannot get the code for Windows, change one line, and sell it.

But patents I don't believe in.... Where do people think the water powered car went , for instance? Into a patent office never to be taken from under the table again.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: Teikiatsu

I think maybe a limited time, specific patent, or royalties for a couple of years might help this.. What do you think?



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: jacobe001

In a Free Market, there would be no such thing as Patents either. That is Protectionism.
If someone can make it cheaper than you, then you lose.


While I agree with the sentiment, there is a purpose to patents. Creating a new good or service isn't free. An inventor needs time to recoup the costs or research and development. If Person A comes up with a new widget and sells it for X, but then Person B can reverse engineer the widget and figure out how to sell the exact same item for X - Y because they aren't hindered by lower capitol from the development, why would A bother to market the widget in the first place?



How much time should they be given?
How did American Products ever make it without patents in the past?
Should consumers have access to the balance sheets?
If their stocks are sky high and they are getting rich I would say they paid off their skilled labor already?

With the color tv, they still recouped their costs.

Skilled labor puts a lot of time and investment into getting their degrees and they are paying for it for years.
Should we patent skills labor obtain?



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 07:23 PM
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.
edit on 3-3-2016 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: Edumakated


In a free market, if a company is making excessive profits, there will be new entrants into a market to extract those excessive profits. That is what competition does.



In a Free Market, there would be no such thing as Patents either. That is Protectionism.
If someone can make it cheaper than you, then you lose.
The first color tv was insanely expensive but helped them recoup their investment costs and it took awhile for the competition to make a color tv as well.

It should be the same with Pharma Products.
They are free to charge the sky to recoup their investment costs but competition will come along and it will take time to reproduce it but will make it cheaper.

But the Mega Corporations do not want a Free Market
They want a Free Market for Labor and a Managed Market for themselves

That is what the TPP is as well
Managed Trade



Patents are necessary otherwise inventors have no reason to invent if they cannot profit off their innovation. If you were an inventor and came up with an innovation, you'd be pissed if a competitor could reverse engineer it and then sell it to profit off of your research and development.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 09:08 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope

Universal healthcare can not, nor will not ever work in America. We have VERY greedy medical and pharmacy corporate's running it all and they have their hand deep up the arse's of politicians! The only way to make it somewhat bearable is to give it back to the state level and have things the way they were...before Obamacare.



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 09:53 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope




Are these ideas applicable?


Yup and have been since we've had a service based economy...



Will tons and tons of insurance companies pop up and compete and offer better pricing and be good for the average? Or will something like Wal-mart be created, where no one can compete if they are around, quality of healthcare, medical tools, etc decline, third world countries will start making a lot of the products, and no one can compete with some huge corporate insurance company, yet that company is not in fact creating the very environment we are advocating for?


Your referring to an oligopolistic market and sadly that would end up happening either way. However with less government intervention these types of corporations whom dominate sectors of industry have an increased risk of losing that top position in the marketplace as there would be an increase in competition between companies. It's not perfect but I don't see how government getting into bed with corporations(or vice versa)would solve the issue of decreased market competition due to oligopolies..
edit on 3pm31America/Chicago3109America/Chicagopm354 by NateTheAnimator because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 09:55 PM
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originally posted by: Staroth
a reply to: deadlyhope

Universal healthcare can not, nor will not ever work in America. We have VERY greedy medical and pharmacy corporate's running it all and they have their hand deep up the arse's of politicians! The only way to make it somewhat bearable is to give it back to the state level and have things the way they were...before Obamacare.


they lose too much money covering preexisting conditions and not be able to rescind plans when people are sick.

It is a contact after all



posted on Mar, 3 2016 @ 10:02 PM
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What is the right-wing resolution to healthcare, anyways?


To let them eat cake.



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