U.S. Soldiers Flee to Canada to Avoid Service in Iraq

Canada is to the USA as an Intel Celeron is to a Pentium 4!

you tard, a celeron is a p4 with the ht turned off. a celeron with a northwood core is better than a p4 with a prescott core.

sorry for the double post. the pic of the pearl harbor vet and the d day story really got to me.

one conspiracy theory that turned uout to be true was PEARL HARBOR. its not in the maybe stages like 9-11 is now, its KNOWN FACT the american government moved ships out of PH becasue they knew when it would happen and they needed the attack to justify the war.

now imagine if the guys at d-day knew that. how many do you think would have deserted? i garenfriggintee you i would. refer to my previous post about fraud, pearl harbor DEFINATELY falls into this category.

parting thought, i want to see who goes willingly from this board if there is a draft. true colors would shine like the canadian sunrise... (imho)


[edit on 12-1-2005 by jprophet420]

[edit on 12-1-2005 by jprophet420]

If you join the military you take the risk of going to war if you don't realize this before you join then that's your problem.Now that doesn't mean that you follow blindly and go where you are told if it is something that you know to be wrong or an unjust cause.In the instance of Iraq,no WMD have been found,our troops are having to dig through junk heaps to outfit their vehicles,and only a half a$$ effort has been made to remedy this.I don't blame anyone for wanting to flee from this.I myself would not join the military mainly because I'm too stubborn to be told what to do,but I do support our troops both home and abroad.Most of the people fleeing to Canada and elsewhere have already been to Iraq (from my understanding anyway)I don't blame them for not wanting to go back to that.

If you died,went to hell and escaped would you go back or would you run?

i only comment is you have no right to judge others for their actions until you are in his shoes and then you still cannot because all humans have freedom of choice in their heart.

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Amuk
you are OUT OF LINE

Then you are a liar too.

As MOD you are VERY out of line.

Oaths? How about the ATS TOS?

You will soon learn that there are several standards of accepted and tolerated behavior here on ATS. The TOS are applied haphazardly and arbitrarily, if at all, and avenues for appeal are generally ignored.

What is an oath anyway? It is a verbal promise or agreement.

The DESERTERS left for whatever their own reasons are. Are they cowards? jsobecky, Amuk and some others seem to think so. I don't. We disagree. I'll explain my reasons below.

Yes I do, and I'll explain why. The majority of them wait until they are back home to desert, because of how easy it is to skip into Canada. What does that tell you?

But most importantly, they do not stand and face the consequences of their decisions. This implies a lack of maturity and is a total breakdown in discipline. The military cannot function without discipline.

To me, it's the same as breaking a contract. If we could all break any contract we entered into, without consequences, then our society would fall apart.

You gave the example of a man with two small children. He has decided in his mind that he doesn't want any more kids, for whatever reasons. His wife gets pregnant again, nonetheless. Should he be able to skip and leave all his obligations behind because this is not what he bought into?

You also brought fear into the discussion. Fear is understandable. A man may not want to fulfill his oath because of fear. But that does not give him the right to desert. It gives him the obligation to face the justice system.

Notice that in all of this, I have not made any judgement on whether a change of heart is cowardly or not. The real measure is how you handle the change of heart.

When a man deserts, he puts more pressure on the other men in his platoon to pick up the slack. He puts their lives at a heightened level of danger.

If you cannot accept that, then we'll just have to disagree.

A father of two small children, wife expecting another, asks his C.O. (commanding officer) to not extend him until after his wife gives birth because she has no family or friends that can help her.

The C.O. Refuses.

The man has already completed HIS original commitment and agreement.

His wife will suffer mental anguish at the very least, she may miscarry or die.

His unit will do whatever the unit was going to do with or without him.

Who does he owe the highest duty to?

Your example is extreme, and I could as easily formulate a counter what-if. If true, he should stay with his wife. But I doubt very much if the case you present would ever occur; she would probably have many sources of support.

Cheers

Originally posted by jsobecky
The majority of them wait until they are back home to desert, because of how easy it is to skip into Canada. What does that tell you?

Well Becky, that tells me that they did their duty as best they could, then said, "To hell with that bull#! This just isn't right!" And their morals wouldn't allow them to continue fighting an unjust war.

But most importantly, they do not stand and face the consequences of their decisions. This implies a lack of maturity and is a total breakdown in discipline. The military cannot function without discipline.

Have you ever been to prison, or even to jail? I'll choose anything over that, even death. If that means leaving the country, so be it. Leaving the country sure beats death, doesn't it? The bottom line is; I will not give my life for nothing, if I can help it. What's the point? So my family can say I was a hero, just because I died?

[edit on 12-1-2005 by Damned]

Originally posted by skippytjc
Seekerof:

Arent they the same thing? Deserters and criminals?

But the real irony here is: Mexicans and Canadians all seem to come to the US. So its like an exchange program!! We send our criminals and deserters and they send us our laborers and hockey players.

NHL lockout -- I guess someone's been asleep

And no, deserters and criminals are not the same thing. Deserters are people that do not wish to die, or fight someone else's war. Criminals on the other hand are mentally disturbed people such as bums, child perverts, murderers, one that commits rape and the list goes on indefinitely.

To me, it's the same as breaking a contract. If we could all break any contract we entered into, without consequences, then our society would fall apart.

even though i just got done disproving said contract?

the invasion is illegal and therefore the orders (to fight) are illegal. like i said, this does not justify desertion, but it justifies not fighting 100%. then you can come home and be tried by a biased military court that does not recognize that it is breaking the law to begin with.

i think the real cowards are the ones who kill people becasue it is easier to follow an order to fight in war rather than question the autority of the command to begin with. derived from the information given in this thread, it is thier job to NOT fight.

Originally posted by jprophet420

To me, it's the same as breaking a contract. If we could all break any contract we entered into, without consequences, then our society would fall apart.

even though i just got done disproving said contract?

I have no idea what you mean by that. Disproving a contract? What does that mean?

then you can come home and be tried by a biased military court that does not recognize that it is breaking the law to begin with.

But you would be more than happy to take advantage of that "biased" military court if it were to work in your favor, right?

Besides, you are making a totally irrational judgement on the military court. You have no way of knowing whether they are biased or not.

i think the real cowards are the ones who kill people becasue it is easier to follow an order to fight in war rather than question the autority of the command to begin with. derived from the information given in this thread, it is thier job to NOT fight.

The authority of the command is not in question. If you refuse to follow an order, that is insubordination.

Those who think that it is OK to break an oath and not face consequences are not only cowards, but they are undisciplined and immature. They were not brought up right. Mommy and daddy cleaned up after them all their lives; that's why they cannot understand the seriousness of consequences.

These are the same people that cry out for the administration's head when they think they have broken some rule. The grownups have to follow the rules, not the deserters, right?

I guess there has to be at least one parent in the playground, though.

I, as an American, love my Canadian neighbors, but I cant help but think of them as our sheltered little sisters! Canadians are always quick to criticize Americans, but the only tough guys in the whole country make up a few hockey teams! Dont be insulted though, I love your general philosophy of life, and am quite envious of most of it. Canada does have some great government policies, ie; healthcare etc. I do get sick of the "holier than thou" attitude though. In regards to "Canadians dont lock their front doors" being so safe and all, thats a crock of bull! I know quite a few Canadians that live in Toronto, and they all laugh when I ask them that, telling me I watch too much TV! I would also like to state that there are easily just as many cities in the good old USA that people dont lock their doors either. I live in Lansing, Michigan-the capital city of Michigan, and neither I nor most of my family lock our doors unless we are going away for awhile. I leave the keys in my ignition most of the time. As far as higher standards of living, I dont know, but I DO know that Michigan has the strictest FDA regulations of anywhere else in the world! You guys eat hotdogs with beaks,cheeks, and peckers ground up in them, we dont get food like that here unless some sicko wants to eat it (pig snouts, etc. YUCK!). How many cases of mad cow disease have you heard of here? I hear reports of it in Canada frequently! America also has the strictest regulations on medical treatments, we just buy drugs from Canada because they are cheaper! I agree our government loves to rip us off, and I have frequently thought of moving to Canada, just to get away from the high taxes we pay here ( I get taxed from the Federal govt, state govt,local city govt, I get robbed to pay for lazy drug dealers welfare,home owners tax, and I pay tax on everything I buy. Not to mention the rediculous credit system we have here-interest is a crime. The less ability you have to pay your bills, the more interest they charge you for those bills for not having the money to pay them on time, and not just those bills- if your credit gets messed up because you cant afford to pay those bills, the ones that you do pay on time raise their interest too, so that it is even harder to catch up on anything else! -- I often wonder where the word freedom comes from, because all I have was never free! It always comes at a high price in one way or another).
About the clean water statement, 100% of the city water systems have strict regulations to ensure the safety of the water, but if you live in the country and have a well, your on your own to make sure its safe! Especially if it is an old system, and next to a septic tank or something (another YUCK!)
I have been to France, and they dont have even close to the regulations we do. Paris, the capital, is polluted worse than L.A., and traffic in that whole country is chaotic! They have 3 lane roads, and the cars drive 6 wide. They dont obey their traffic laws, and there are very few cops to enforce them since most of them are on mopeds or on foot. If you dont believe it, go there, and see how many cars you see that dont have the sides all smashed in and how many cars even have side mirrors any more. When they park, they smash into your car just to squeeze in as tight as they can. At night, Paris swarms with little Arab gangs trying to mug you or sell you drugs. (they tried to sell me and my buddy a cat turd the size of a marble, for $500.00 saying it was hash! - they said "you American, you rich", I told them "only in the movies are we rich, most of us are poor because our government steals all our money!" They wouldnt leave us alone until I started pushing one of them backwards into his crowd of punks hoping he would get the picture and not stab me or something!
Anyways, I think Hollywood is America's biggest enemy, everyone watches the movies and thinks we have it so good here. I mean, just because we have the freedom to disagree, doesnt mean that we are important enough to not be killed for it!
I also want to thank the Canadians for one more thing! THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR PAMELA ANDERSON! Too bad America has such a way of making hookers out of housewives! Otherwise, she is a goddess!

Originally posted by donquad2001
i only comment is you have no right to judge others for their actions until you are in his shoes and then you still cannot because all humans have freedom of choice in their heart.

thats the problem, not all humans have freedom, even in their hearts!

Originally posted by c00ster
Canadians are always quick to criticize Americans, but the only tough guys in the whole country make up a few hockey teams! Dont be insulted though, I love your general philosophy of life, and am quite envious of most of it. Canada does have some great government policies, ie; healthcare etc.

It'd do you good to break that up into smaller paragraphs

As for the locking door question...

I lock my doors here, in Toronto (Though there have been times when I've fallen asleep and they didn't get locked and it's been fine). In the country, however, I don't, which as many have stated is similar in many places, not just Canada.

As for Canadians being quick to criticize American's - That may be true, but it does work both ways. And perhaps it's not a holier than thou attitude, but a critical one. Not necessarily saying what we have here is better (as that's arguable) because they are very similar cultures, so criticizing the mainstream culture in America is essentially insulting Canadian culture as well. Canadians criticize American foreign policy and in return American's criticize Canada's foreign policy as well (Small military, neutrality with regard to Iraq, stuff like that).

As for taxes.. I believe taxes are higher in Canada ('free' healthcare doesn't just come out of nowhere )

As a sidenote.

Apparently Canada has given refuge to conscripted deserters, but never to soldiers who have volunteered their service.
I don't think they should change that policy.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by jprophet420

To me, it's the same as breaking a contract. If we could all break any contract we entered into, without consequences, then our society would fall apart.

even though i just got done disproving said contract?

I have no idea what you mean by that. Disproving a contract? What does that mean?

then you can come home and be tried by a biased military court that does not recognize that it is breaking the law to begin with.

But you would be more than happy to take advantage of that "biased" military court if it were to work in your favor, right?

Besides, you are making a totally irrational judgement on the military court. You have no way of knowing whether they are biased or not.

i think the real cowards are the ones who kill people becasue it is easier to follow an order to fight in war rather than question the autority of the command to begin with. derived from the information given in this thread, it is thier job to NOT fight.

The authority of the command is not in question. If you refuse to follow an order, that is insubordination.

Those who think that it is OK to break an oath and not face consequences are not only cowards, but they are undisciplined and immature. They were not brought up right. Mommy and daddy cleaned up after them all their lives; that's why they cannot understand the seriousness of consequences.

These are the same people that cry out for the administration's head when they think they have broken some rule. The grownups have to follow the rules, not the deserters, right?

I guess there has to be at least one parent in the playground, though.

i made 3 posts, read them. they only break the rules by deserting. they break no rules by NOT fighting and they break rules by accepting the illegal commands of their officers. please pay attention to what i say before you discredit it, thanks.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by jprophet420]

If i was an American or any solidier for that matter and was about to be called up i would get the hell outta my country (no offence intended)

[edit on 13-1-2005 by drunk]

As well you should, for the sake of the rest. But then, this thread is not about conscription, but about volunteer militaries.

i made 3 posts, read them. they only break the rules by deserting. they break no rules by NOT fighting and they break rules by accepting the illegal commands of their officers. please pay attention to what i say before you discredit it, thanks.

This thread is concerned only with the issues of deserting. That is illegal and cowardly.

Whether the war, and according to you, any orders emanating as a result of it, are illegal, is subjective at best.

jsobecky and c00ster there must be justice denied somewhere in this world.

I had a 'pithy' post just about ready when the Microsmurf gremlin denied me, sigh.

Anyway, your posts on this page have given me laughs and a few sighs. I appreciate threads like this one. You are right, of course

(the guy and children story is true)

TOS- yeah, I know. I just get agitated when someone thumps about somethings (oaths) and then does exactly the opposite.

I have no feelings one way or the other individually regarding deserters. I do hurt for America though.

parrhesia I believe you are mistaken on the refuge to non-draftee soldiers. I don't fully understand Canadian law on this but I know of no case where an American deserter was sent back.

Originally posted by jsobecky

i made 3 posts, read them. they only break the rules by deserting. they break no rules by NOT fighting and they break rules by accepting the illegal commands of their officers. please pay attention to what i say before you discredit it, thanks.

This thread is concerned only with the issues of deserting. That is illegal and cowardly.

Whether the war, and according to you, any orders emanating as a result of it, are illegal, is subjective at best.

no, it is the general consenus of the international community. it IS illegal, it just hasn't been tried. just becasue something has not gone to trial and had the verdict passed by a jury does not mean it is illegal. you gould have a kilo of coc aine, get busted and then go to trial and have your lawyer get you aquited. it would still be illegal, you just happened to get away with it.

i never debated the fact deserting was illegal, as far as cowardly goes - go sign up for the war if you dont want to be a coward. by NOT FIGHTING IN THE WAR YOU ARE AS COWARDLY AS ALL WHO DESERT. if you feel it is dishonorable
becasue they signed up and then reniged then enjoy the freedom of having your own opinion.

Originally posted by jprophet420
i never debated the fact deserting was illegal, as far as cowardly goes - go sign up for the war if you dont want to be a coward. by NOT FIGHTING IN THE WAR YOU ARE AS COWARDLY AS ALL WHO DESERT. if you feel it is dishonorable
becasue they signed up and then reniged then enjoy the freedom of having your own opinion.

Standard, stock, off the shelf remark. Go fight the war blah blah blah.

You have no possible idea of my military experience or status, so please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

You want to enjoy the benefits and protection of the same flag that you feel you have the right to burn, and do not want to risk your life defending. You are like the baby bird in the nest, head tilted back and mouth wide open crying Feed me! Feed me!

You are pathetic.

excuse me, but there hasnt been a war for american freedom since the civil war, and we haven't been invaded since the revolutionary war. you didnt fight in either one of those so i dont want to hear it.

You want to enjoy the benefits and protection of the same flag that you feel you have the right to burn, and do not want to risk your life defending.

talk about speculation...

whenever a foriegn country invades us i'll fight. whenever warmongers do the wrong things for the wrong reasons i will scrutinize. what i wont do is follow blindly.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by jprophet420]