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U.S. Soldiers Flee to Canada to Avoid Service in Iraq

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posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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I couldn't put it better than Djarums. As a Canadian, if I had my way, I would ship these people back to face their obligations, or the consequences of trying to avoid those obligations.




posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
intrepid didn't Wolfe invade Canada?


What Wolfe are you refering to? Was it the Wolfe that defeated Montcalm on the Plains of Abraham even though both generals were killed?


That's the man.

Must have been some battle.


Wolfe invaded "Lower" Canada, basically what is now Quebec. But he was British, not American.

Man, did we get off topic.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by intrepid]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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In response to the initial thread post

Not such a long time ago, on a beach in France, some brave and selfless Men stormed a strip of sand into the face of withering and merciless fire from the cliffs above. A lot of them didnt even make it off the landing craft, they were cut down before they had even took a step. Others jumped into the sea and were drowned, weighed down by the equipment they had to carry. Others upon making it to the beach were pinned down and watched helpless as their friends and brothers in arms were cut down before their very eyes. But still these Men dug deep within themselves and forged forward to the base of the cliff and eventually carried the day, quite possibly saving the D-Day landings. Incredible courage and self sacrifice.
Now you may be wondering why i have brought this up. Each of these Men made a promise to themselves and to their Country that they would put themselves in harms way. Each of them swore before their God that they would do this against all instinct of self preservation for the greater good. They were farm boys, lawyers, bus drivers, people from all walks of life. The one thing they shared in common is the oath they swore. All Soldiers know that when the time comes they may have to take a life or to put theirs in mortal jepardy. Imagine for a moment that these Soldiers suddenly thought to themselves " Hey! Screw this! Theres no way im gonna do this, i didnt sign on for this crap! " and went back to their jobs and Homes in the US and left the job to the British, French and Canadian and Common wealth forces who were also fighting and dying that day, not so very far away. The War would have been much harder to win without them, perhaps we may never have won the War at all.
The point i am trying to make is that these Soldiers made the same promise their Grandfathers on that beach made. The same promise that those men fought and died for. The same promise that enables the US, and yes other Countries, live a free life. To turn your back on that is to turn your back on the sacrifices made by thousands of other Soldiers past and present who stood and swore that they would do the job they volenteered for.
Its not about the rights and wrongs of Iraq and the US policy towards the same, its about seeing that promise through to the end, no matter what that end may be. Of course people will dissagree with this, but a Soldier knows his duty and swore to do that duty and not run away.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
by just crossing a single river, between canada and usa, you see the diffrence. low crime. low murder rate. people also live in north america but act very peacefull. why arent there crazy people with guns running around canada?
and did you know that canadian people dont lock their front doors?
(i have seen that in bowling for columbine movie and i was really amazed; canadians, tell me is it really like that?)
imagine that. without locking their front doors.


total crime of course when our population is 10 times larger but crime rates here are slightly lower and keeps going down, infact the areas who have always had stricter gun control have higher murder and crime rates than areas without controls, the midwest and south east have much lower crime rates than much of canada.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by namehere
total crime of course when our population is 10 times larger but crime rates here are slightly lower and keeps going down, infact the areas who have always had stricter gun control have higher murder and crime rates than areas without controls, the midwest and south east have much lower crime rates than much of canada.


Beep, wrong. Check out the violent crime statistics. Ours is WAY less that 1/10 of the States. Mind you, you may be right, if you compare an area that's sparcely populated, like the midwest, with a country that 4500 miles across.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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from JoeDoaks
As to deserters being cowards- bunk. PROVE IT!

They deserted, that's why they are cowards. Now if they had stated their position, and stayed in America to face the legal system, and faced whatever consequences were handed down, then they would not be cowards.

They scurried across the border because they were afraid to face the legal consequences, the same as many of them (not all) were afraid to go to Iraq.

skippy

Re: The Canadian health system. I have heard their health system being described as a three tier system:


Three-Tier System

My own personal contacts with Canadians support a recent article in the Montreal Gazette, in which a Canadian woman described the frequent rudeness of unionized Canadian medical staff as compared to the "kindness, discretion, and professionalism" of staff members in U.S. hospitals. Few Canadians can afford to experience health care in the U.S. and thus make this comparison.

In his Wall Street Journal article, Lemieux quotes Professor Livio Di Matteo of Lakehead University in Ontario describing a three-tier system of health care in Canada. The very rich, DiMatteo pointed out, can go to the U.S. for rapid, personalized, high-tech treatment. A second tier, consisting of well-informed, aggressive Canadians, knows how to navigate the government system to gain every possible advantage, like getting to the head of the queue.

The third tier are the unconnected citizens, who make up the vast majority of patients in the Canadian health care system. They must suffer the slings and arrows of a system notoriously oblivious to anguish, discomfort, humiliation, and other affronts perpetrated by unfeeling bureaucrats on patients whose pain is most definitely not felt by those in charge.

A Quebec physician, Dr. Jacques Chanoulli, is suing the Canadian government for not allowing patients to pay for better care. The Supreme Court of Canada will hear the case in June. At the same time, 10,000 breast cancer patients who had to wait an average of eight weeks for post-operative radiation treatments over the past seven years have brought a class action suit against Quebec's hospitals.

www.heartland.org...

If you're one of those in the third tier, you are the worst off.

Re: Locking doors.
The first house I bought, I lives in for 11 years and never locked the doors once except when I went away for an extended time. In fact, rarely have I locked my doors here in America.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by jsobecky]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by namehere
total crime of course when our population is 10 times larger but crime rates here are slightly lower and keeps going down, infact the areas who have always had stricter gun control have higher murder and crime rates than areas without controls, the midwest and south east have much lower crime rates than much of canada.


Beep, wrong. Check out the violent crime statistics. Ours is WAY less that 1/10 of the States. Mind you, you may be right, if you compare an area that's sparcely populated, like the midwest, with a country that 4500 miles across.



Well im sad i missed this thread. Seems like there was a fair bit of flag waving on both sides of the border.

While i am a hardcore canadian to do believe that canada owes much of what we have to the yanks. Look who our #1 trading partner is? In that alone we owe them much. But thats fine as it is advantagous for both parties to trade. I am also 100% certain that if someone did attack canada in some way shape or form that the USA, assuming dubbya wasnt golfing, would be the first to back us up.

As for things we dont owe and dont want from teh USA are things like a huge military, we dont fight unless we need to. Its not that we cant, canadians are a brave bunch, just as brave as the none deserting american soldiers.

We also dont want private health care, our public system works great for canada, it just needs a little fixing here and there right now (well more than a little
)

We are also one of the safest places on earth, not to say that the USA isnt. But if you look at violent crime the differences are staggering between the USA and Canada. Although we are both much safer than many other places.

Im sure that americans think their country is the best, as the should or else they should move. Same thing with Canadians, or any other nations population.

Anyways... back on topic, send the deserters home. They could have, and should have, done something else



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

from JoeDoaks
As to deserters being cowards- bunk. PROVE IT!

They deserted, that's why they are cowards. Now if they had stated their position, and stayed in America to face the legal system, and faced whatever consequences were handed down, then they would not be cowards.

They scurried across the border because they were afraid to face the legal consequences, the same as many of them (not all) were afraid to go to Iraq.

skippy

Re: The Canadian health system. I have heard their health system being described as a three tier system:


Three-Tier System

My own personal contacts with Canadians support a recent article in the Montreal Gazette, in which a Canadian woman described the frequent rudeness of unionized Canadian medical staff as compared to the "kindness, discretion, and professionalism" of staff members in U.S. hospitals. Few Canadians can afford to experience health care in the U.S. and thus make this comparison.

In his Wall Street Journal article, Lemieux quotes Professor Livio Di Matteo of Lakehead University in Ontario describing a three-tier system of health care in Canada. The very rich, DiMatteo pointed out, can go to the U.S. for rapid, personalized, high-tech treatment. A second tier, consisting of well-informed, aggressive Canadians, knows how to navigate the government system to gain every possible advantage, like getting to the head of the queue.

The third tier are the unconnected citizens, who make up the vast majority of patients in the Canadian health care system. They must suffer the slings and arrows of a system notoriously oblivious to anguish, discomfort, humiliation, and other affronts perpetrated by unfeeling bureaucrats on patients whose pain is most definitely not felt by those in charge.

A Quebec physician, Dr. Jacques Chanoulli, is suing the Canadian government for not allowing patients to pay for better care. The Supreme Court of Canada will hear the case in June. At the same time, 10,000 breast cancer patients who had to wait an average of eight weeks for post-operative radiation treatments over the past seven years have brought a class action suit against Quebec's hospitals.

www.heartland.org...

If you're one of those in the third tier, you are the worst off.

Re: Locking doors.
The first house I bought, I lives in for 11 years and never locked the doors once except when I went away for an extended time. In fact, rarely have I locked my doors here in America.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by jsobecky]


Uhh thats out to lunch cause i get awesome service from everywhere i go, and i am ceratinly one who would get into teh 3rd categorie. but i havnt had to get any service in teh states so i cant compare as to how good yours is (im sure its rather good). Dont beleive everything your read, especially from the frenchies (joking
)



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Well, I'm glad that you get good service, being in the third tier, but I have heard many stories to the contrary. Have you ever had to have an MRI? I have heard that the wait can be over a month to get one in Canada.

Also, are you allowed to purchase your own separate health care if you want to? I think the last paragraph of the article I quoted has answers to these questions.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by jsobecky]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
SomewhereinBetween,No danger of me spending any time there for sure, so dont worry about it.
I don't, I have faith in our immigration screeners.


The best thing about my trip to Canada was the strippers.
That is good to know that your interest when visiting another country lies within its carnal zones, and if you did not enjoy much else in Montreal it is because history and culture was not included in your agenda. Isn't this so skippy? This is confirmed by your visionary quest to see what lies between the thighs of Canadian women and not what lies on La rue Sherbrooke.


I mention my fathers side of my family is from Canada? Immigrated.
They immigrated to Canada or emigrated to the U.S? Nonetheless, your father's history is not in question.


As far as immigration numbers are concerned, I looked into them a couple of hours ago and decided not t post them due to inconsistencies in the timing of the consensuses.


Skippy, book your passage ASAP! Take the first flight available and provide proof of your being in Iraq, that country which you exalt above Canada. Do not try to bamboozle me with excuses either. The statistics may not be available in Canada for 2003, but they are there for several years previous. Shall we take a peek and show just how much you speak off the top of your hat? I say yes1

Canadian immigrant naturalization numbers to the U.S.

2003 6,408
2002 7,591
2001 7,551
2000 11,365.

Now I want to pay very close attention skippy, and if you need assistance with operating a calculator or Excel spreadsheet let me know. Canadian statistics:

2002 5,288
2001 5,902
2000 5,815.

I don’t see even two times the number much less ten times, do you skippy?



But some numbers that stood out was that Canada's ENTIRE immigrations number from 1996 to present was just over 1 million.
Yes and this relates to the above how exactly? I will tell you. Despite claims by others in here, Canada is far more diverse than the U.S relative to the mix of nations and cultures we have per capita.


The US had 770,000 for October 2003 alone. About 11,000 from Canada that month.
Which month is that skippy? I will be kind and direct you to the percentage of spouses and offspring of U.S citizens entering your country, as opposed to the percentage of non-related Canadians or extra-territorial citizens making application for residency, just so you understand that before you swallow both feet whole, you might wish to actually understand the nature of your immigration statistics.


The percentage of immigrants into the US for that time period from Canada was about 1.6%. Down .01 from the previous measurment. The American immigrants into Canada had dropped exatcly half from the previous measurment. 3% from 6%. Remember: These numbers are one US month in 2003 VS the last 8 years for Canada.
Based on what population skippy? As measured by?


So, clearly ALOT more people immigrate from Canada to the US than the other way around. Google it if you don’t believe me.
"Alot?"[sic] A lot is not the 10 times, is it skippy?

When can we expect to wish you a good trip to Iraq? I can arrange same here for your departure within 10 days, will you be ready?



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by nameheretotal crime of course when our population is 10 times larger but crime rates here are slightly lower and keeps going down, infact the areas who have always had stricter gun control have higher murder and crime rates than areas without controls, the midwest and south east have much lower crime rates than much of canada.
I read that to suggest the U.S has a lower per capita crime rate than that of Canada. I offer the same deal to you as I did to skippy if that indeed is your position.

[edit on 1/11/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by jsobeckyIn his Wall Street Journal article, Lemieux quotes Professor Livio Di Matteo of Lakehead University in Ontario describing a three-tier system of health care in Canada. The very rich, DiMatteo pointed out, can go to the U.S. for rapid, personalized, high-tech treatment. A second tier, consisting of well-informed, aggressive Canadians, knows how to navigate the government system to gain every possible advantage, like getting to the head of the queue.

The third tier are the unconnected citizens, who make up the vast majority of patients in the Canadian health care system. They must suffer the slings and arrows of a system notoriously oblivious to anguish, discomfort, humiliation, and other affronts perpetrated by unfeeling bureaucrats on patients whose pain is most definitely not felt by those in charge.
Is that so? then you need to read what I have written about me, mine and an aged member of my family as regard the health care system's responsiveness to our needs. Needless to say, this is propaganda fed to you so that you may consecrate your current system. The same system that alienates those who cannot afford a band aid much less a ttriple bypass.


A Quebec physician, Dr. Jacques Chanoulli, is suing the Canadian government for not allowing patients to pay for better care. The Supreme Court of Canada will hear the case in June. At the same time, 10k breast cancer patients who had to wait an average of eight weeks for post-operative radiation treatments over the past seven years have brought a class action suit against Quebec's hospitals.
A physician? A physician? A physician per chance who is not allowed to bill whatever he chooses? 10,00o breast patient victims having to wait eight weeks, when in fact it is likely that those same patients decided to wait eight years for a breast examination, contrary to the preventative examination time frame? I dare say, we are not perfect, but the one thing our medical system is about is early detection, which I am sure most of these 10,000 had no care about. Well at least these 10,000 actually have a chance at being saved, your millions of homeless and uninsured have only a chance at being drugged to dull their pain.

side note for moderators: I cannot correctly edit for 10,000 as shown above.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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SomewhereinBetween.

Umm, not sure where you getting your "U.S. immigrant naturalization numbers" (naturalized immigrants) from, but according to this source;


Rise in the Naturalized Population. These recent immigrant numbers reflect a decade of very dynamic population change. On the one hand, the number of undocumented residents is rising faster than ever before—from about 3.5 million in 1990 to more than 9 million in 2002.

On the other hand, for the first time in over 25 years, we see a rise in the number of naturalized immigrants—from 6.5 million in 1990 to 7.5 million in the mid-1990s to over 11 million in 2002 (Figure 1). Annual naturalizations surged, peaking at over 1 million in 1996, and even now remain well above levels of the 1980s (Figure 2).3

Trends in Naturalization

You wish to clarify?

My bust, SomewhereinBetween.
I believe I mis-interpreted your comment. I think your numbers were for Canadian's immigrating to the U.S., correct? If so, my bust.



seekerof

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
SomewhereinBetween.

Umm, not sure where you getting your "U.S. immigrant naturalization numbers" (naturalized immigrants) from, but according to this source;


Rise in the Naturalized Population. These recent immigrant numbers reflect a decade of very dynamic population change. On the one hand, the number of undocumented residents is rising faster than ever before—from about 3.5 million in 1990 to more than 9 million in 2002.

On the other hand, for the first time in over 25 years, we see a rise in the number of naturalized immigrants—from 6.5 million in 1990 to 7.5 million in the mid-1990s to over 11 million in 2002 (Figure 1). Annual naturalizations surged, peaking at over 1 million in 1996, and even now remain well above levels of the 1980s (Figure 2).3

Trends in Naturalization

You wish to clarify?

My bust, SomewhereinBetween.
I believe I mis-interpreted your comment. I think your numbers were for Canadian's immigrating to the U.S., correct? If so, my bust.
Certainly
uscis.gov...

Do you require the Canadian statistics also? Well, let me provide same anyway. www.cic.gc.ca...



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 10:24 PM
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What makes them cowards?

These men





posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Sorry, but I don't call that brave. I call it stupid. BTW, he didn't "defuse" the bomb. He detonated it.


Originally posted by Amuk
Do you know in MOST of America people don't lock their doors either? I don't half of the time.

I don't know anyone who doesn't lock their doors, except a few people who practically live in farmland areas, way out in the middle of nowhere.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Damned]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:46 PM
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What's stupid is joining the military without thinking of the full implcations of the oath and the commitment that you voluntary took. What's stupid is leaving the country you voluntarily chose to serve rather than facing deserved punishment.
While he may be right morally, he betrayed his oath by fleeing the country rather than staying and making his case.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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If I had joined the military, then found out my gov't was pulling this type of crap, I would desert too. I can see the point, if they joined before the Iraq war. If they joined after, then yeah, they should've known they'd have to go. I'm one of those people that would give my life for something I believe in, but I'm never going to give my life for something as stupid as this BS Iraq war. People aren't dying with honor. They're dying for no reason at all.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by Damned
Sorry, but I don't call that brave. I call it stupid.


Be thankful you have stupid people to protect you while you hide behind your locked doors.

There are a lot more "stupid" people, even on this board, people that still carry the scars of their "stupidity" but at least they didn't cut and run like a scared little girl when asked to do the job they hired on to do. The people broke a Solemnly sworn Oath and if you cant understand what that means then I cant explain it to you.

If they were drafted they MIGHT have something to whine about if they joined and then they ran, then they are a lying coward



[edit on 12-1-2005 by Amuk]



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 03:41 AM
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Hey guys,this is my first time posting here at ATS.Be gentle please.


Anyways,here's my take on the whole idea of evading duty:I believe the soldiers who ran to Canada are corwards as they themselves had volunteered to be soldier and by breaking the oath just isn't right to me.

However,in another perspective,a soldier is still a human with their very own mind and conscience.A soldier is not just another dog of the government.Therefore,we cannot judge these "runaway soldiers" unless we are in their shoes(or boots..hehe).

I guess the saying "duty,above self" doesn't apply here.



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