What constitutes (religious)belief?

to put it another way, bald is not a hair color.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

What constitutes (religious)belief?

Answer: Indoctrination, firstly. Then comes, hopefully, a person's developing empathy, critical thinking skills and the ability to compare doctrine and rhetoric to real life experience. Finally, a person creates a distance between one's indoctrination and ones' personal experience, to form an independent opinion (belief) that represents a blend of both perspectives. This is what constitutes a (religious) belief.

Can a religious belief constitute the rejection of indoctrination and rhetoric. I think that there's a "sliding scale", from total acceptance to total rejection. But the catch is, in reality there's a Venn Diagram at play, where all the participates have first been indoctrinated.

a reply to: windword

How would you explain the first believers? The very first person to believe in a creator would not have been "indoctrinated" but yet somehow, someway....

I don't buy the indoctrination. Granted, these days, it can spread via indoctrination....however it did not START that way.

A2D

a reply to: Raggedyman

I would be more interested in how many atheists believe that it is a religion.

That would be the only measure I would consider valid, since logically speaking, they know more about it than those who are not atheist.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Nor do I care what you claim me to be.

If I had selfish motivations, that is, if I was trying to persuade others to think of me in a certain manner, I would not have gone through the trouble, as I literally couldn't care less what someone surfing the internet thinks of me personally. I do care however, what that someone thinks of entire groups of people because, as has been demonstrated throughout the ages, stereotypical beliefs can be quite dangerous.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

How would you explain the first believers?

The first believers in what? You say a creator, yet I say the first "believers" saw something greater than themselves, like a thunder clap or a volcano, and anthropomorphised those forces. Superstitions are the origin of religion, naming forces of nature as deities and imagining them to be either fighting amongst themselves, or over their control over mankind. Religion comes from the desire to have some control over natural forces by appeasing the perceived supernatural.

The forces of nature are the origin of humility. Sexual urges and family bonds are the origin of empathy. The law of survival, "eat or be eaten", is the origin of social structure and the need to colonize with like minded individuals, families and tribes, for protection. Intellectual compromise for the greater good is the origin of civilizations, which allow mankind to, not just survive, but thrive.

Religion is a product of evolution. There wasn't a first person who just started believing in a creator, anymore than there was an Adam and Eve.

I believe you may be right to some degree agree2disagree

a reply to: windword

It doesn't matter in what. If the first believers created religion out of superstitious beliefs, which the evolution of religion depicts, then your "indoctrination" theory is inherently flawed. Religion was a product of their minds, not a product of indoctrination.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Indoctrination began the first time someone assigned a natural force to an invisible authority figure (deity) modeled after an earthly authority figure; a supernatural father, a supernatural tribal chief, a supernatural shaman, a supernatural whatever, that they suggested needed to be appeased by human action. When someone else believed the explanation that a volcano was an angry deity, for example, beliefs were born.

Religion is a product of imagination, fear of death and superstition.

a reply to: windword

Precisely, yet previously you said a religious belief is a product of indoctrination...but now you're saying religion is ultimately a product of imagination.. I agree that it is a product of imagination, spread by indoctrination. I would not say it is a product of indoctrination though.

What constitutes (religious)belief?

Answer: Indoctrination, firstly.

Your answer is, in my opinion, incorrect. Indoctrination could not possibly be a part of a religious belief...superstition on the other hand, absolutely could. Indoctrination is how it spreads, but not actually a part of the belief itself.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Precisely, yet previously you said a religious belief is a product of indoctrination...but now you're saying religion is ultimately a product of imagination..

Don't be obtuse! I outlined 3 basic evolutionary steps that result in religious belief; Shock and awe of natural forces, superstition,i.e. naming a deity, intellectual comparison, i.e. acceptance or rejection of said superstition I could have elaborated further, but I kept it brief. You can't have religion without indoctrination, the conveyance of a superstition or intellectual position. Everyone in the same religion has to be on the same page.

Indoctrination could not possibly be a part of a religious belief...superstition on the other hand

Okay, so the belief that Jesus died for your sins isn't indoctrination? Is it superstition? Belief in Noah's flood or the Garden of Eden isn't indoctrination? Belief in Heaven and Hell isn't indoctrination? It's all superstition and no indoctrination?

The main element of religious belief is the acceptance or rejection of something that one has heard about.

a reply to: windword


I doubt you could call it indoctrinisation

I was an atheist prior to Christianity, I was definetly not indoctrinated.
It was a decision I made after a very short conversation.

If I have noted any indoctrination, without trying to derail this thread I would suggest your own religion of atheism
Go visit the creation forums, question evolution and you get seriously attacked, that's indoctrination
Schools can't teach some things because evolution can't be questioned, that's indoctrination


Now windy, indoctrination isn't what you believe, it's about how you are taught
Taught that one thing is sacred, kinda like evolution for atheists, irrespective of the evidence

a reply to: Raggedyman

Well IF one believes things that are not found in the bible... that is indoctrination

Look at the creeds of the church... you'll see what i mean

Well you might not...

What luck!

I think I've found a picture of the very first "believer/indoctrinator," AND the very first "atheist"!

a reply to: windword

The main element of religious belief is the acceptance or rejection of something that one has heard about.

Sorry, but that's just not right at all. One doesn't have to "hear about" something to believe in it. We all, I hope, can develop our own beliefs.

As an example, as a child I was scared of thunderstorms. I do not recall precisely what it was about them that frightened me, but I do recall I believed I was in some bodily danger. I came to the conclusion that under my bed was the safest spot. I was not indoctrinated into this belief. The same can be said for one who develops a religious belief in the same manner.

Had I, like the Hopi, attributed the loud noises and "danger" presented by thunderstorms to deity(s), then my belief would have been considered a religious one.


A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

As an example, as a child I was scared of thunderstorms. I do not recall precisely what it was about them that frightened me, but I do recall I believed I was in some bodily danger. I came to the conclusion that under my bed was the safest spot. I was not indoctrinated into this belief.

But, what if you lived in a different time, when your parents were scared of thunderstorms and believed that they were dragons fighting overhead? How long would it take you to come to a different conclusion about the origin of the thunderstorm?

a reply to: windword

Like I said, it can be SPREAD through indoctrination...but it's not a part of the belief itself. I think I clearly demonstrated how a belief can develop WITHOUT indoctrination.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

I think I clearly demonstrated how a belief can develop WITHOUT indoctrination.

No you didn't. You don't live in a vacuum. You've been indoctrinated since you were a baby. I'm saying that the concept of god itself is a product of indoctrination that resulted in group acceptance of superstition, that fills in the blanks when it comes to understanding the forces of nature.

You think that you were born with a belief in god, naturally, and you can't get past your own bias.

a reply to: windword

So...I've been indoctrinated into agnosticism then huh? Please tell me again about how I was indoctrinated as a child to believe that thunderstorms were caused by something trying to hurt me.

You have it backwards...the belief in god was developed by group superstition that resulted in generational indoctrination.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

No. Your agnosticism represents you're breaking your indoctrination and using your critical thinking skills to compare superstitions that you've learned about as a child with you personal experiences of reality.

Beliefs come in all kinds and colors. They don't have to be religious or even well thought through. But, beliefs like Jesus died for your sins, or God led HIS people out of Egypt, are religious beliefs based in superstitious indoctrination.