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For In The Name of God

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posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
Just to be part of this stupid game I am inclined to start thread about Lenin, stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and all the atrocities, MASS SLAUGHTERS they carried out in the name of atheism and that particular faith.

I wont


I'm just wondering how many people would do this, not how many people have done this. The OP says nothing about which is better or worse or anything of the sort.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
I think somebody is trying to blame religion instead of placing the blame on people and their choices.


Your assessment is incorrect. I don't 'blame religion' for their crimes.

The purpose of this thread is the sheer fascination of how far someone is willing to go for their god, even if those actions include what I personally feel is excessively immoral.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
Though those afore mentioned names carried out these horrendous actions believing that no gods existed, that they had no moral guideline, that atheism taught humanity were animals


Atheism hasn't taught anyone anything.

Science, on the other hand, has.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
I would be beyond stupid to blame atheism, I would be beyond stupid to claim a link, beyond stupid to set about a troll thread insinuating all atheists were the same


Yes it would be incredibly ignorant. Good thing no one is doing that.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
You judge in a rather condemning way and then complain about Gods judgement on people.


I only posted those verses because a member stated that god had never once asked anyone to kill another person. I wasn't 'complaining' about anything.

You're presenting yet another False Premise.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
So tell me Ghost, what should be done to these people who deny medicine, education, what ever else they did wrong in YOUR opinion (God complex?), what should be done to them? Locked up, stoned, neutered, what punishment do you see as befitting?


It's not up to me to decide that, we have laws in order that deal with murder and unnecessary suffering.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
Your religion deems humanity to be nothing more than animals


I don't follow a religion


originally posted by: Raggedyman
whats to stop you from the exact same thing that you accuse the religious of doing...nothing at all, not even your morality, a morality you choose at your on desire.


Well, I lack the belief in god, so if a one did come to me and ask me to do something terrible I would admit myself to a psych ward.

As for morality, I don't choose what makes me feel guilty and what makes me feel empathetic, that comes naturally for me. Are you saying that you actively have to prevent yourself from steeling or murdering others?




posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn




There was no law forbidding murder as the Law will be given to Israel later.


I guess Cain did nothing wrong, then?

What about this promise?


Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:12 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147

There are some factors that you may have over looked

There was no law forbidding murder as the Law will be given to Israel later.

Abraham needed some testing on if he would trust God in all things. We see when Isaac asks where is the sacrifice he tells him God would supply one. This indicates his faith that God would either not takes his son and supply a ram which he did or he believed God would raise him from the dead like god did the children of Job.


I understand what you mean, but the claim was that "If God is good and a loving God, he would only ask humans to do good things. Therefore anyone believing in such a god would know a voice in their head asking them to do something evil such as rape or kill, such a voice is not from their God but an evil source or their own malfunctioning brain."

Do those passages from the bible not represent god requesting or demanding to kill another person?
edit on 1/3/16 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

I am sorry Ghost, you don't understand anything about Judaism or Christianity

Its amazing that you say you are not singling out any religion but then single out Judaism.

You know you are as transparent as a jelly fish and poor at lying

Judaism has two laws, a civil law carried out by those in authority and an individual law for how people should treat each other.
Sadly you cant, wont or don't have the capacity or ability to reason between the two.

and just because I cant stand much more of your ill conceived capacity to understand simple logic
The New Testament is the only standard that Christians are to obey, any word, thought, deed from anyone who calls themselves a Christian, operating outside those standards are not in accordance with its teachings
Yes IT IS that strict

Now try to understand this simple concept, think, dwell, consider and be slow to reply.
If a Christian hears a word from they perceive as God, the Spirit, whatever and it goes directly against the teachings in the NT, its a false word, NOT from God

Seriously, can you understand that basic concept.
Do you want a bible verse to help you understand that simple teaching

So all those people in your opening post, all those you moan and judge (god like arnt you) are not operating from what has already been revealed.

Now what gives you the right to say those you moan about are wrong, who died and made you the ultimate authority over whats acceptable an unacceptable.
We are just animals after all.



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: chr0naut


The nature of God, revealed in the Bible and especially through Jesus, is not one that would ask such abhorrent things.

The nature of the biblical god is most certainly to ask such abhorrent things. The OT is full of such. The NT however, toned it down a massive amount, but still had Peter pronouncing the deaths of two people, and pronouncing blindness on another. So certainly the god of the bible hasn't lost his taste for such things, they're just not near as prevalent in the NT, except for his enjoyment of putting those who were devoted to him through torture, suffering, and hell on earth.



The absolutes of what is right and what is wrong had not been changed with Christianity. God took action at very specific moments to prevent the newly founded Christian believers from going off track.

Ananias and Saphira were misrepresenting their contributions, with the goal of achieving social status in the group of believers. God was showing that Christianity was not a social club and all about superficial appearances. Peter merely announced their deceit, he did not kill them.

When Paul (not Peter) announced that Elymas the magician would be struck blind for trying to turn the Proconsul away from the faith, Paul did not blind him and also the blindness was temporary.

So, the situation was different than someone carrying out "God's judgement".

And as these moments were major "tipping points" in the spread of Christianity, perhaps, from God's perspective, extreme measures against malefactors were justified?



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:47 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut




And as these moments were major "tipping points" in the spread of Christianity, perhaps, from God's perspective, extreme measures against malefactors were justified?


I guess the murder of the Nazarene and the Cathars, from God's perspective, were also justifiable measures against malefactors, just to name a few?



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: chr0naut




And as these moments were major "tipping points" in the spread of Christianity, perhaps, from God's perspective, extreme measures against malefactors were justified?


I guess the murder of the Nazarene and the Cathars, from God's perspective, were also justifiable measures against malefactors, just to name a few?



I don't think so. The Catholic church has much blood on its hands, in that regard and not only against those that oppose its philosophies & theology.



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 08:55 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
I am sorry Ghost, you don't understand anything about Judaism or Christianity


I never stated that I did know anything about the two


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Its amazing that you say you are not singling out any religion but then single out Judaism.


When did I single out Judaism? I was responding to a post that related to the Abrahamic religions and that's the only reason I brought any scripture into this topic at all, because it was relevant to someone elses comment.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
You know you are as transparent as a jelly fish and poor at lying


You're free to actually back your claims with quotes. Or are you here to just make assumptions on everything I write? Are you stalking me again?


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Judaism has two laws, a civil law carried out by those in authority and an individual law for how people should treat each other


Interesting, thanks for the information, I never knew that (not being sarcastic).

I'm still not sure how that affects my response to that comment, however.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Sadly you cant, wont or don't have the capacity or ability to reason between the two.


Once again, I don't understand how that discounts the fact that the god in question (brought up by someone else, mind you) did actually tell people to literally kill other people.

You seem to know a lot about this subject, so please feel to teach me, I am honestly curious.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
and just because I cant stand much more of your ill conceived capacity to understand simple logic


Is being ignorant a crime now? I'm sorry a lack of knowledge in someone else is causing you so much unbearable emotions.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
The New Testament is the only standard that Christians are to obey


Right, and I don't deny this.

However, a member here claimed that the god that Jesus represents has never and would never tell anyone to kill another person.

Now, even though I have limited knowledge about the bible, the two passages I presented directly show that same god telling a person (and people) to kill another person. Am I mistaken with that observation?


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
any word, thought, deed from anyone who calls themselves a Christian, operating outside those standards are not in accordance with its teachings Yes IT IS that strict


So is the question in my OP invalid in some sort of way? Can't a god simply find another prophet-like individual and guide them? Again, these are honest questions, I'm not implying anything else.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
If a Christian hears a word from they perceive as God, the Spirit, whatever and it goes directly against the teachings in the NT, its a false word, NOT from God


I see. Well, I was referring to religion in general in the OP, so my question still stands.

But, I do have to ask, why is it impossible for the christian god to not ever say such things. I understand the OT and NT are dramatically different from each other, but it's the same god nonetheless, and he has made several decisions that he later 'erases', for instance, the great flood. Why is it impossible for him not to intervene again but through an individual? or perhaps prevent someone or something from existing any further than they already have?

Just as an example, if a child was to grow up to be this horrible, terrible person and them growing up would mean the death of 10's of thousands of people, is it impossible for god to contact a parent, or other person, and help 'prevent' that from happening?


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Seriously, can you understand that basic concept.
Do you want a bible verse to help you understand that simple teaching


Sure, that would be excellent!


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
So all those people in your opening post, all those you moan and judge (god like arnt you) are not operating from what has already been revealed.


Why did you assume I was referring to christian-people only?


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Now what gives you the right to say those you moan about are wrong, who died and made you the ultimate authority over whats acceptable an unacceptable.


I never stated that they were wrong. I was just asking if anyone else feels that they are justified or that they too would carry out the actions if ever they were told by their god to do them
edit on 1/3/16 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 09:26 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

ahhh ok then, it had nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity
Cool I get it and I believe it now

Thanks for clearing that all up.

So just out of interest, the individual you were discussing in your op, what was their faith?
Care to share?



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 10:06 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
ahhh ok then, it had nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity


Correct, the OP isn't specifically on Judaism or Christianity, it was a question directed to all religions. That includes Judaism and Christianity, but not exclusively them.


originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
So just out of interest, the individual you were discussing in your op, what was their faith?
Care to share?


I don't have the specific articles on hand, but the cases referenced various religions:

~ a parent who had killed their own children, because 'god told me so'. (Catholic)
~ parents and guardians whom readily reject the offering of modern medicine in order to 'faith heal' their child, only for the child to suffer an agonizing, slow death, in the name. (this one was actually on a number of cases spanning from Christianity, Hindu, Islam)
~ individuals whom target a single group that they claim 'god told me to kill them' (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindu)
~ groups of people whom gang rape women because 'god allows it' (Islam)
~ Individuals and/groups whom blow up medical clinics because 'it's gods will' (Christianity)



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 10:32 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147Recently, however, I was told by an individual while we were talking about Atheism that:

"I do not hate atheists, I'm just prejudice towards them because god has told me to be", In which I responded
"I wonder, if god were to ask you to rape and murder your children, would you do it?" They imediately replied with
"I would"

After a brief pause, they retracted their statement by saying:

"But he would stop me from doing so."

So I bring up the incidences posted at the beginning of this OP. Cases in which God has told these individuals to commit certain actions and never prevented them from actually occurring.

They respond saying:

"The point you are speaking of is obedience to God."

Of course, the point I was making was that they would instantly attempt to rape and murder their own children, without question. They would, and can, actually warp their mind so much to convince themselves that they need to rape and murder their children.

If, in the back of your mind you think "Well, god will just prevent me from carrying out the actions", then you aren't really obedient, are you? You're just putting on a play until god tells you to stop, as if god wouldn't know that you really are just doing it for show.

They continued to state that "I will do what my Creator asks of me."

Nevertheless, it has made wonder:

"How many theists/religious people would actually go through with this, fully believing that it is within 'gods plan' and that it must be done, in gods name"




So just out of interest, the individual you were discussing in your op, what was their faith?
Care to share?



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 11:04 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
So just out of interest, the individual you were discussing in your op, what was their faith?
Care to share?


They never specified
edit on 1/3/16 by Ghost147 because: quote malfunction



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 11:21 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

No the scriptures do not command I or any Christian to kill other people.

Abraham was a special case it was part of the calling out of a people for himself that started with one Man Abraham.

There is no New Testament that commands I kill as a Christian.

there were old Testaments commandments but they were limited to a time in the past.

Israel as a nation is not Christian, nor are Christian to take the promises of the kingdom that has nut fulfilled for themselves. Hence there is no verses that command Christians to kill anyone.

Like I said I would test, as all Christians should, that voice in the head by what God has already revealed in Scripture. If it goes against what is there I would with certain say it is not God. IN this age God is into saving men not sending them to hell.



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 11:31 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147

No the scriptures do not command I or any Christian to kill other people.


I wasn't suggesting that they do, I was just pointing out that it appears that god had at least done so on a few occasions.


originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147
There is no New Testament that commands I kill as a Christian.


I don't doubt that's true. I was only giving those as an example because you stated that the god Jesus represent would never tell someone to kill another person, but it appears he once did.


originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147
Like I said I would test, as all Christians should, that voice in the head by what God has already revealed in Scripture. If it goes against what is there I would with certain say it is not God. IN this age God is into saving men not sending them to hell.


The problem with this is that there is no universally accepted agreement on what the bible really says, which is why there are so many denominations within christianity. So everyone's perception of the bible varies from person to person.



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 11:32 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn




There is no New Testament that commands I kill as a Christian.


Are there any that state that Christians may not kill, you know like in war, or a "Stand Your Ground" situation, or being on a jury that will decide a death penalty. I'm pretty sure that if it's legal, Christians are allowed to kill.



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 11:39 PM
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a reply to: windword

you know what I meant, there was no written law as we find given to Israel for anyone to fall back on. and Cain was before the flood and we have nothing left from before then to give us any clue what they knew of God's laws. we do see that Noah sacrificed and that had to be from some source, and then later it is said of Abraham he would keep God's laws.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
But we are not told what those laws were.

But let's look at what was special about that first murder. Interesting that the first fratricide took place within the first 120 years or so of Adams life. I think instinctively we all know that killing another person is wrong. It is something in side us. But sin removes that conscience of it and we see it a lot today.

Gen 4:1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 ¶ And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
the whole thing seems to be that Cain was jealous that Abel's offering was respected and his was not. But if you understand if he does right he would be accepted. what was that he would have to "doest well" that would make his offering accepted? First give an offering of the flock and its fat, then present his offering of the first fruits.

This is seen even when the law is given to Moses for all Israel. No offering of the field would be accepted until they had brought in a sin offering of the flock.

Genesis 9:6 was given after the flood to Noah and does not apply to the pre-flood knowledge as we have no proof of it prior.




edit on 2-3-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2016 @ 11:53 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

You left out that I said there was a time he did command a certain people to kill all in the land they were given by him. If I am not mistaken he waited until the wrath of his was fulfilled then he allowed them to be killed. But it was according to his the wrath they themselves occurred and brought upon themselves.

Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.
it took about another 5oo years before they were finally killed off and even then not all were because Israel was not obedient.

But remember none of that was to a Christian. That was Israel and under special circumstances. You can't make that comparison of commands to Israel and place it on Christians and say because he did it in the past what IF he does it now.

We have a whole and complete preserved word and 300 plus other incomplete bibles that we can check it by. Like I said if he spoke to me and said rape you kid I would say, NO! It is against your word for me to lay with my child. This is not you, and I would turn and say unto that spirit, My Lord Rebuke thee, for I would know it was of the devil and not of God.
edit on 2-3-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2016 @ 12:02 AM
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a reply to: windword

this is the only words I can quote under the teachings of Paul he says this,

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as layth in you, live peaceably with all men.
As long as I can maintain peace with someone then I will remain peaceful. But if someone comes into my home and will do harm to me or mine I will not hesitate to fight back. Because I have not the ability to live peaceable with someone who is attacking me. I don't think you could either. Unless you think protecting yourself or family is wrong.



posted on Mar, 2 2016 @ 12:10 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

You make a LOT of assumptions.



you know what I meant, there was no written law as we find given to Israel for anyone to fall back on.


No, I don't know what you meant. You're all over the place!

Most ancient tradition was oral, but we do have plenty of ancient written narratives, accounts religious rituals, concepts and laws.



and Cain was before the flood and we have nothing left from before then to give us any clue what they knew of God's laws.


Please! Why have the book of Genesis at all?

The great flood is a myth and so are Adam and Eve and Cain. It's all allegory!

You're implying that prehistoric/paleolithic man had no morals and God had to write down commandments for mankind in order for mankind to have any use for empathy or social logic!



I think instinctively we all know that killing another person is wrong. It is something in side us.


Again, allegorically, Adam and Eve were imbued with the knowledge of good and evil when they ate of the fruit.


But sin removes that conscience of it and we see it a lot today.


Nonsense! Empty rhetoric and a blind assumption that has no basis in reality.



First offering the an offering of the flock and its fat then present his offering of the first fruits.


That has to be wrong assumption, because Cain was a gardener, not a Sheppard. He didn't keep flocks.



Genesis 9:6 was given after the flood to Noah and does not apply to the pre-flood knowledge as we have no proof of it prior.



You're trying to prove that murder wasn't wrong in ancient times, because God hadn't written that sommandment down yet. And, if he did, that "Do Not Murder" law was lost when God destroyed the earth to punish misbehaving angels and earth girls.

Man, you're a piece of work! you have an excuse for everything! You really think that God destroyed all of mankind because of fallen angels mating with human women, bu you say, we have no proof of what human and fallen angels were SUPPOSED to be doing back then, according to God's written laws, because all those written laws were destroyed with the flood.

WRONG!

We have plenty of historic data that coincides with biblical era civilizations and earlier hunter gatherers. We know a lot about their cultures, ways of life, family life, burials and rituals, etc. We aren't in total ignorance to ancient life, and can be certain that mankind didn't need to have laws written down to tell them not to kill each other.


edit on 2-3-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2016 @ 12:12 AM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147

You left out that I said there was a time he did command a certain people to kill all in the land they were given by him.


My mistake, I must have missed or misread that part.

Nevertheless, my question would still stand. If he did it once, why can't he do it again?


originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147
But remember none of that was to a Christian. That was Israel and under special circumstances. You can't make that comparison of commands to Israel and place it on Christians and say because he did it in the past what IF he does it now.


Ah, I see what you mean


originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Ghost147
Like I said if he spoke to me and said rape you kid I would say, NO! It is against your word for me to lay with my child.


I'm glad you would come to that conclusion.



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